Wave E-bike 499$ (another Storm/Indiegogo)
- Thread starter Kaldeem
- Start date
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
That is a double edged sword when it comes to Chinese manufacturers. There is a 50/50 chance that they simply started selling the bike that the wave team designed either as part of the contract to build it, or because they wanted to. There are zero copyright protections when it comes to China. Granted I would err on your side of the coin, it likely was an existing build, however it is clear they have worked to provide different options in the form of paid perks for their bike that do make each build unique. There will in all likelihood be no 2 wave bikes that are alike (save for a base model with no upgrades) - that in and of itself is not an easy goal to accomplish, so kudos to them if they can pull it off.
The quotes you have above from the campaign are called marketing - you do have to market products you sell. They may only be half truths - they probably work with the same plant that makes that alibaba bike, and that plant sources the components requested by the Wave bike people - but does working in this manner make any of their statements lies?
The reality is there are more than a few shades of grey when it comes to Chinese bike builds. It isn't limited to these few Chinese bikes either. I'll use fat bikes as an example because I got kind of familiar with them. Bikes direct fat bikes include the Boris line (same frame/builds as bikes from KHS), their Fantom lineup is the same bikes that are sold by SE Bikes. The Minnesota Framed fat bikes I have found on alibaba under several names (the main one I recall was Sinbao - literally the exact same bikes except for the names, which were stenciled into the same paint jobs).
As a matter of fact, a majority of the bikes direct fat bikes have been sold (and sold out) via pre-ordering. They might be a more established business...but pre-orders that are months away are pretty darn close to these crowd-funding bikes if you ask me.
Nobody is being fleeced here, to most it just isn't that big of a deal imho (for whatever that is worth!).
stevenast
Well-Known Member
@livejamie - nice find!
Yes it is. I bet you could also find other bikes on alibaba that are marked up and resold here in America.
At BEST the buyers look to be getting bottom end quality with no support. More likely, their money is just gone. I wouldn't buy it from alibaba nor from crowd-funded campaigns.
Some people may label posts such as this as "negative". But I think it's actually very positive to encourage people not waste their money. Of course if they have it to waste, then no problem...
No one is getting a nice bike for cheap from a crowdfunding campaign!
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Aren't many and perhaps most production bikes manufactured overseas? (thinking of Specialized, TREK and other major bike companies). I would think only the very high end would be carefully crafted local to the company.
Someone putting together a custom build bike with high-end components is probably not a typical eBiker, but more a typical lycra type who is not using e-assist, is planning to spend over $4K on just the bike itself with whatever super light components they can find, and that high end bike is being built close(r) to them than built in Asia and shipped to the US.
Wrong assumption?
Someone putting together a custom build bike with high-end components is probably not a typical eBiker, but more a typical lycra type who is not using e-assist, is planning to spend over $4K on just the bike itself with whatever super light components they can find, and that high end bike is being built close(r) to them than built in Asia and shipped to the US.
Wrong assumption?
Last edited:
livejamie
New Member
I mean I'm not a business man, but Alibaba has the unit price as low as $300 and you're going to pay around $800 from that Wave campaign not including any of the "upgrades" they're offering.
I just found it disappointing and wanted to discuss. Interesting conversation so far. Good responses.
I'd imagine that my $800 could go toward something better, but I'm new to e-Bikes.
I just found it disappointing and wanted to discuss. Interesting conversation so far. Good responses.
I'd imagine that my $800 could go toward something better, but I'm new to e-Bikes.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
there's trade offs on every manner of acquiring an e-bike lol:
- use a crowdfunded campaign like this one and you have a very real risk of getting nothing, and a best case scenario of getting extremely low quality
- use a better crowdfunded campaign like Rad Rover and you'll pay more, you still have to wait, and you still are not a hundred percent certain of what you're getting
- buy a lower end ebike at retail from a dealer and you'll be paying quite a bit relative to what you're getting - some values are there
- buy a higher end e-bike from a dealer and once again you'll be paying a LOT, although you're more likely to get quality, in some cases very high quality
- put a conversion kit on an existing regular bicycle and the costs will mount up and it will never be as good as you would like. Plus regular bikes are not engineered to be powered like that
- buy a used e-bike at your own risk, batteries that have been neglected can be in terrible shape. There's also a lot of clunky older technology out there. however ebikes depreciate VERY steeply, so if you find the right thing you could get a deal
All that said, they are so much fun to ride, take your time and find a way to get involved. It is so worth it!
livejamie
New Member
Great response. What makes the Rad Rover "better?"
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
I'm not necessarily in support of the wave in particular - I did not like how they ended up adding far too many niggling options for their buyers - instead of building a solid bike at a reasonable price, they went as low as possible and you build as you see fit. It might work, but getting every order right seems a logistical nightmare to me.
As far as the alibaba comparison, well, you have to consider the battery being offered - are the specs in the alibaba description? just because it looks the same, doesnt mean at $300 you get a 24v 8ah battery; the wave is something like a 48v 11ah, which is a legitimately well sized battery.
Until you contact the alibaba seller, $300 could be the price without a battery too, you don't know unless you go to the point of asking.
$300 is also probably also the cost before shipping. The lowest price may also be at a volume discount (i.e. lets say a 500 or 1,000 bike minimum).
The alibaba might not sell one offs, until you actually contact them you don't know the exact specs of what you're getting, and you get no more of a guarantee buying direct than you do buying on indiegogo from a 'campaign'.
I know I don't want to deal directly with a manufacturing plant in China on an individual level, would you?! maybe if you are the DIY parts buyer type, but that is a whole different animal (plenty of people at endless sphere do buy direct, but on single parts that is more understandable vs a finished product like a bike).
The positives of the wave bike campaign are mainly the people running it seem to be up front and willing to address questions posed; they had popped into the forum in the first few days of their campaign as well, before it took off (incidentally when there was a yahoo puff piece about it...which I don't necessarily care for either).
I'm just going to link to my post in reply to @stevenast - I can be a little, uh, pointed in my arguments at times, but I mean well! It sums up my thoughts on Radrover as well as the people behind it:
http://electricbikereview.com/commu...end-any-more-than-this.1616/page-3#post-19162
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Since the time of the posts linked to above, I have been persuaded that the people running the RadRover campaign are sincere. I also believe they're using higher quality components. I still would never buy / contribute to a crowdfunded campaign of any sort.
It's like an arcade machine where you reach in with the claw and hope to grab the prize. I'd rather just go buy the stuffed animal in a store.
Matthew Kreger
Member
The Alibaba bike also has a 250W motor listed with an upgrade available to 500W. I have no doubt the Wave guys found something on Alibaba that was close to what they wanted and negotiated specific changes (like the 750W motor) from there. It only makes sense. Not sure why that makes it a bad thing. Also, they finally got a clue and are now gunning for a five star review on EBR. From the latest update:
"...That's why we are installing FREE water bottle braze-on bolts on every Wave Electric Bike!...
"...That's why we are installing FREE water bottle braze-on bolts on every Wave Electric Bike!...
stevenast
Well-Known Member
borgqueenx
New Member
Thats pretty stopid. i was doubting if i should buy this bike but seriously 420 dollar from china and then asking 549 dollar as a early bird + 250 usd shipping internationally.....not to speak for the upgrades required...
Wow.
The only way i would still buy it because i cant find it resold by another company. alibaba requires me to buy 10+ bikes and both my family and budget doesnt go that far
Wow.
The only way i would still buy it because i cant find it resold by another company. alibaba requires me to buy 10+ bikes and both my family and budget doesnt go that far
kimboviper
New Member
most of the people buying this bike or the sondors bike dont even know what alibaba is also indiegogo doesnt care too
also indiegogo doesnt care too Hello. I know next to nothing about bikes, "e" or otherwise. I saw the wave and did what I always do... research. That led me here and I just read all the posts.
While I don't know anything about bikes, I know a lot about Alibaba. My business has used Alibaba (and similar) for the last decade (well before Alibaba went public and everyone heard about it) to source services mostly, but also parts from overseas.
I'm not for or against this Wave and I'm not saying it is or isn't a good buy. But I want to offer some clarifications for those now seeing it "cheaper" on Alibaba and figuring this Indigogo campaign is ripping you off.
First, as suggested earlier, is the chicken and egg conundrum. While it is very possible (if not likely) that the Wave folks found a Chinese bike and are reselling it at a profit (as though that's never happened before)... it is also possible that the Wave folks put together something, their Chinese counterparts saw the success of the campaign, and are now offering it direct. Which is it? Who cares really, because the following points are more important.
You CANT buy a single unit from China cheaper than you're going to get it from the campaign. I don't care how it appears. I know this from experience that if they say $300, that's just to get you to look. When dollars actually exchange hands, it is at a much higher price with a thousand excuses why. I know that's how it works because I've gone through it so many times. In fact, just two days ago I settled on a batch of 5000 LM386 chips from this supplier and do you think I paid between "$0.001-0.002" per piece? They were $0.08 a piece and I was happy to get it at that price. The stated price means NOTHING on Alibaba. Their one-off subsidiary, on the other hand, which is aliexpress.com is a different matter. If you can find the same product there, you *might* be getting it at the price they say... but that price is always higher (even then, read carefully). If you can find the same bike there (I couldn't) then you start to see what the actual cost is.
I have an account at Alibaba (obviously) as well as a buyers' history, meaning I'm going to get a more solid response to a "how much" question than someone new (reputation matters more to the Chinese than you might think). I've asked what the cost is. If I get a response (you only do about 40% of the time) with an actual number (20%) I'll reply with it here.
But let's pretend it really is on the up-and-up. Wave is charging $200 to $250 for shipping. You think you'll get that from China? Good bloody luck. Alibaba sellers expect YOU to arrange shipping on a container ship. Otherwise, it is UPS/DHL/FedEX and that's $$$. You'll probably pay > $1000 to ship a bike that you probably can't even buy. And compare apples to apples... 750W instead of 500W.
Again, I'm not making ANY judgements on the bike. I'm just saying, no matter how good or bad the Wave is, you can't compare the price to some practically random posting on Alibaba.
While not a fair comparisson, consider this: http://www.aliexpress.com
48V, 750W, 12aH Samsung battery, 26" wheels... sure, its a different bike entirely, but work with me here. it is a made-in-China e-bike and this is the CHEAPEST one on Aliexpress (remember, that's Alibaba but for one-off sales and you actually get a price) and it is $1542.55... PLUS $773.68 SHIPPING to the USA!!!
While I don't know anything about bikes, I know a lot about Alibaba. My business has used Alibaba (and similar) for the last decade (well before Alibaba went public and everyone heard about it) to source services mostly, but also parts from overseas.
I'm not for or against this Wave and I'm not saying it is or isn't a good buy. But I want to offer some clarifications for those now seeing it "cheaper" on Alibaba and figuring this Indigogo campaign is ripping you off.
First, as suggested earlier, is the chicken and egg conundrum. While it is very possible (if not likely) that the Wave folks found a Chinese bike and are reselling it at a profit (as though that's never happened before)... it is also possible that the Wave folks put together something, their Chinese counterparts saw the success of the campaign, and are now offering it direct. Which is it? Who cares really, because the following points are more important.
You CANT buy a single unit from China cheaper than you're going to get it from the campaign. I don't care how it appears. I know this from experience that if they say $300, that's just to get you to look. When dollars actually exchange hands, it is at a much higher price with a thousand excuses why. I know that's how it works because I've gone through it so many times. In fact, just two days ago I settled on a batch of 5000 LM386 chips from this supplier and do you think I paid between "$0.001-0.002" per piece? They were $0.08 a piece and I was happy to get it at that price. The stated price means NOTHING on Alibaba. Their one-off subsidiary, on the other hand, which is aliexpress.com is a different matter. If you can find the same product there, you *might* be getting it at the price they say... but that price is always higher (even then, read carefully). If you can find the same bike there (I couldn't) then you start to see what the actual cost is.
I have an account at Alibaba (obviously) as well as a buyers' history, meaning I'm going to get a more solid response to a "how much" question than someone new (reputation matters more to the Chinese than you might think). I've asked what the cost is. If I get a response (you only do about 40% of the time) with an actual number (20%) I'll reply with it here.
But let's pretend it really is on the up-and-up. Wave is charging $200 to $250 for shipping. You think you'll get that from China? Good bloody luck. Alibaba sellers expect YOU to arrange shipping on a container ship. Otherwise, it is UPS/DHL/FedEX and that's $$$. You'll probably pay > $1000 to ship a bike that you probably can't even buy. And compare apples to apples... 750W instead of 500W.
Again, I'm not making ANY judgements on the bike. I'm just saying, no matter how good or bad the Wave is, you can't compare the price to some practically random posting on Alibaba.
While not a fair comparisson, consider this: http://www.aliexpress.com
48V, 750W, 12aH Samsung battery, 26" wheels... sure, its a different bike entirely, but work with me here. it is a made-in-China e-bike and this is the CHEAPEST one on Aliexpress (remember, that's Alibaba but for one-off sales and you actually get a price) and it is $1542.55... PLUS $773.68 SHIPPING to the USA!!!
stevenast
Well-Known Member
Excellent post! It just shows, going to your bike shop, riding the bike you're going to buy, knowing what you're going to get and what you're going to pay, at the moment you are completing the transaction, makes a lot of sense.
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
I think you're missing the point of @bcsteeve 's post here. He is pointing out that the true cost of an alibaba bike, if you are able to order just one, is nowhere near the bottom basement prices they list. I have at times tried to articulate the same, however BCsteeve has direct experience with buying through that site that I have not! The point is, the crowdfunded bikes, while potentially a risk, are aggressively priced and shouldn't be compared to the prices you can find from the lowest vendor listings on alibaba, which people seem to regularly want to do.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry to skip a step. I totally get his point, I was just jumping ahead to the next point.
1. Alibaba price isn't "real" so not a good comparison (his excellent post)
2. Crowd-sourced, you don't know what you're going to get, if anything (common knowledge)
- therefore-
3. If you want a bike, go ride some, try them out, buy one.
Reading this thread front to back, it became clear that you enjoy beating your dead horse. And that's more than a lexiconical cliche. The "dead horse" here is, really, the local bike shop. Your point is valid, certainly, but you're trashing *this* product specifically over your general *opinion* regarding online sales vs. in-store. We get it, you prefer to buy in a store. Good for you (and your local shop)... but that really has nothing to do with this topic, does it? Everyone understands there's a risk to "buying" something on Indigogo (of course, you're not really buying anything. You're "contributing" and, assuming all goes well, that contribution results in a stated "perk"... but no, nothing really stops the "seller" from just taking the money and failing at their business before your product is shipped). It isn't like online shopping just happened and everyone needs to be warned. You've said your piece, why not leave it at that and leave the discussion to the merits (or lack there of) of this particular bike?
Normally I wouldn't bother posting this, but since you chose to kind of twist my words to support your agenda, I felt obliged.
Interestingly enough, i already got a response from that Chinese "wave" seller! I didn't get a price - yet - but he attached this. It may or may not be the same info posted on the sales page, I didn't look that carefully. I post it here for your enjoyment (or not).
What amuses me is that their photo is taken with the pedal sitting on the ground. I wonder, did it fall off when the camera flashed?
Normally I wouldn't bother posting this, but since you chose to kind of twist my words to support your agenda, I felt obliged.
Interestingly enough, i already got a response from that Chinese "wave" seller! I didn't get a price - yet - but he attached this. It may or may not be the same info posted on the sales page, I didn't look that carefully. I post it here for your enjoyment (or not).
What amuses me is that their photo is taken with the pedal sitting on the ground. I wonder, did it fall off when the camera flashed?
Attachments
Similar threads
