Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter 2 rides 175 miles now 1075 miles, more than 2 rides

[Westlafadeaway]

Where do you hear / feel the grinding please? Can you replicate it on throttle ?

When you get a chance, please make sure the wheel is aligned correctly - another way of saying that the beltline should to be as straight as you can get it. If the wheel is off to one side, that may cause some grinding of the belt on the cogs too

If it's the sound I hear, I think it is easy when shifting to not fully engage a gear and when that happens there's a little grinding. That's why I stopped using the throttle to start off because when it happens under throttle it's not great but when it happens while pedaling it's easy to feel it and avoiding it completely.

I have another issue about alignment/kindernay and I'll post separately.

 

[Westlafadeaway]

@pushkar and everyone - questions for you:
So a few things kind of happened at once and I'm going to work on it this weekend, but thought I'd share to get any advice and be sure I'm not overlooking any problems. I could maintain just about everything on an analog bike unless I needed special tools - there's a plethora of forums on analog bikes to help guide someone like me. But usually I'd be lazy and have my LBS do it. But there's a learning curve here with this bike, and it's painful because there's very little videos on kindernay and their videos are overly simplistic.

To those new to the oil change on an IGH: You need a Gates belt tool (like a chain whip for a cassette) to hold the sprocket while you undo the (I think) 57 mm nut. That left my bike in a heap for a week waiting for it. That made it pretty easy to remove.

Last week I had no issues. Everything was going well.
1) I flipped the bike over to change the oil and noted that the wheel was just slightly rubbing the frame. Ever so lightly. I couldn't figure out the solution so it was put on my to do list [I realize now and hope that the two screws on the back wheel- either side- are not just for the belt but for alignment too? Very different from an analog bike!]
2) I did the break in oil change, rode a mile, did another oil change. Kindernay's video on this doesn't indicate force to put on the nut, they just do it tight. The first oil change was pretty thick and black, and the second one was still a little black so I can see why they recommend doing it twice. ISSUE: I found some oil on the wheel's axil when I pulled off the wheel for the second change. Not a lot, a few drops.
3) I rode to work and on the road the alignment got worse, and the rubbing more severe. The wheel still moved but with drag. The pedals would stop moving and the gears were not shifting. s*it. I was a block from work and just got it into a gear, left it there, and pedaled gently.
4) I left the bike at work and got the car to bring it home. When I took the back wheel off, the gate belt sprocket and the nut came right off, and there was oil on my hand when I screwed it back on. Issue: how tight should the nut be on the sprocket? I put it on using a wrench until it was tight but not so tight it would be impossible to take off.

Did I damage something? I no.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Yesterday I went for a l o n g ride….I started out staying in level 2 on purpose with ” I am here to ride” attitude so after a quick stop for rain I braved on…. Going along having my standard stops for breaks and fruit. At about 30 miles i am thinking maybe 45 miles for the 1st battery, looks like petty good compared 30-35 in last rides. Now come a few hills, May suck some battery though and harder hit at my 45 mile goal mile. At mile 39+ bigger hill, hold down + and hit power while in level 4 I think from eco. About 2 strokes and loud pop or bang noise and spinning pedals and no go. I looked down and saw the belt next to a gear I hadnt seen.

1st thought is Kindernay broke apart and the belt was around a gear that was supposed to fit over the other gear still on the Kindernay. No, after looking closely the belt “just” popped off. Either way I am not in a good place. I have a great back up system , call my wife and she always comes and picks me and my bike up in the van.

But let’s look a this 1st. Start trying to put the belt on like a regular chain , get it started and then pedal. Got it 1/2 way on and noticed there is a groove it rides in and I need to get the belt over the groove and fully in place. played with th that for a while , no luck. I have a pretty useless back so turning the bike over to work on it is not a fun thing but either try or make the call and end the day. I put my helmet over the display and managed to get it over as long as I leaned on it slightly to keep it from falling, helmets are not flat.

I have a multi tool I carry, that is it. Now I am looking at the drive train for real knowing I am going to have to move the wheel and tensioning assembly to get the belt on. I released the wheel 1st but couldn’t get the belt on , moved to the tensioning set up, loosened everything , including a nut that was one one the 3 sizes on that arm of the tool and I was able to reach the nut with the right angle , booth surprised me and made me happy. After realizing that I was turning 1 screw backwards and I was moving the mechanism to to tighten and instead of loosening I was good, belt on.. I tightened everything in the reverse order and even aligned the wheel a little better in the center.

at this point I turned around to head home , not confident my 1st encounter with a belt , it could pop off again, albeit for the same reason it popped the 1st time and I don’t know what that was or just because it looks right it may not be. Start out slowly but getting faster with more confidence. by about 5 miles from home very dark clouds . At this point i In the 30s for sprints trying but loosing the rain battle. Arrive home completely drenched, completely! But I have made it home with little issue from the belt.

the good news here is not that I had an issue but I was able to move on after having it

@pushkar there seems to be a slight grinding if I pedal but not enough to put pressure on the pedal, almost sounds/feels tight but I could be just noticing since I am paying extra attn to the drive train currently, any thoughts?

Did the bike come completely assembled ?
Does the company supply any sort of manual describing mainanance/ tensioning/ torque values and such ?
How is the Gates belt replaced? I don't see a frame splitter. Is this a 'split belt' type?
Your posts raise some issues with the kindernay transmission.
Your idea of a larger main ring/ cog - what I did on my current machine (38T to 44T) - seems correct to me, using the 3 speed. 14 gears sounds like a nuisance to get from 14, down to mid-lower range. No throttle allowed? Go two blocks, stop at intersection - rinse and repeat 20 times on a commute. That's a lot of shifting. Nor any love here for 'thumb' operated anything. My first change is a 3/4 twist throttle. Second, a twist actuated shifter. Not available? Not true. I have a Left twist sitting waiting for next bike, also a right - with Bafang plugs. Not available for certain gearboxes? Hmmmmm. A chain may be the answer.
Now I'm thinking the wider belt would also be an option worth considering.
Sorry for stupid questions you've already covered. It took a while to find and read all your posts.

Thanks,

Fn'F

 

[scrambler]

A few Clarifications.
Gates is not split which is why it can take so much torque, but that means the rear triangle needs to be opened to replace the belt (unless the swingarm is above both strands of belt), and why not all bikes can accommodate it.

Gates does provide manual with tensioning information

https://www.gatescarbondrive.com/~/media/files/gcd/owners-manuals/english-owners-manual-gates-carbon-drive.pdf?la=en

Although 14 gears is too much for an electric bike, the Kindernay easily shifts 3 gears as a time, so you can consider it a 5 gear system.

Throttle is allowed, but limited at 1000W for warranty purposes, You can derestrict the throttle, and will probably be fine if you don't hammer the system, gunning the throttle from a start in the wrong gear.

 

[Westlafadeaway]

Although 14 gears is too much for an electric bike, the Kindernay easily shifts 3 gears as a time, so you can consider it a 5 gear system.

Yeah, this is not a problem or nuisance. You don't start off in the bottom gear and you aren't really hitting the highest gear in 2 blocks and then stopping. Maybe if you are going past block 2 and you know you are staying at that speed for more blocks. In a 2 block stop/go you aren't getting to the "5th" gear anyways. It's really like the 5th gear in a sports car- you really have to be moving to justify move it to 5th, and if you aren't at that speed I slow down if I go into 14th too early.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Yeah, this is not a problem or nuisance. You don't start off in the bottom gear and you aren't really hitting the highest gear in 2 blocks and then stopping. Maybe if you are going past block 2 and you know you are staying at that speed for more blocks. In a 2 block stop/go you aren't getting to the "5th" gear anyways. It's really like the 5th gear in a sports car- you really have to be moving to justify move it to 5th, and if you aren't at that speed I slow down if I go into 14th too early.

In other words, 'a more complicated, failure prone - not made for this kind of power - waste in the city that serves no realistic purpose"?
The deal-breaker's where you can't use the throttle in some (unknown while I'm shifting) gears, without risking the $1400 - useless - transmission.
Plus it weighs +4lbs ???
I'd prefer direct drive. That big torque, using the throttle will keep me accelerating enough after stopping and I can pedal just fine when up to speed. I like 'dumb' power. KISS principle. A single Ti hub gear would weigh very little and work perfectly, unstressed, power on tap anytime.
'The essence of success is simplicity', I always say ... but admire the purists.
All in your style, I guess.

Fn'F

 

[Westlafadeaway]

I'm not disagreeing or defending anything here, but this comment is confusing.

That big torque, using the throttle will keep me accelerating enough after stopping and I can pedal just fine when up to speed.

Fn'F

I just bought a bike that had it and I originally wanted the Rohloff but then I would have had to wait and I needed a bike ASAP. I'm not going to die on your hill because you want to make it seem like that's the option here.

Personally, I think you are creating a strawman here. You don't need to know the gear if you know how to use the IGH. Why do you need to know what gear you are in? And I avoid using the throttle starting out, but the motor is working immediately, smoothly and it sounds like you think this is the end of the world- that someone would have to pedal on a... bicycle. I think there's a lot of grey here that you seem to want to make black or white. This is my first ebike, I'm no expert, but it works great. I'll leave it to others to debate whatever it is you want to debate- I'll go for a ride instead.

The title of the thread is "Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter 2 rides 175 miles." Start your own thread.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I'm not disagreeing or defending anything here, but this comment is confusing.

I just bought a bike that had it and I originally wanted the Rohloff but then I would have had to wait and I needed a bike ASAP. I'm not going to die on your hill because you want to make it seem like that's the option here.

Personally, I think you are creating a strawman here. You don't need to know the gear if you know how to use the IGH. Why do you need to know what gear you are in? And I avoid using the throttle starting out, but the motor is working immediately, smoothly and it sounds like you think this is the end of the world- that someone would have to pedal on a... bicycle. I think there's a lot of grey here that you seem to want to make black or white. This is my first ebike, I'm no expert, but it works great. I'll leave it to others to debate whatever it is you want to debate- I'll go for a ride instead.

The title of the thread is "Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter 2 rides 175 miles." Start your own thread.

Well, I do disagree and the facts are plain. I don't have, or give a "Hill' of beans who dies on one. Not sure what that's about.
Your saying "I'm not disagreeing or defending anything here, but this comment is confusing", leading to you closing with "The title of the thread is 'Watt Wagons Ultimate Commuter 2 rides 175 miles.' Start your own thread" is so disjointed, I lost you.
By your own admission: You are "confused"; making demands; have delusions of personally owning a thread, and would suffer no dissent, my clear conclusions, because you see things more murky.
Everyone 'legally responsible' (compos mentus) for their words says: Not only do you need to know the gear - unless on a 750w, powered-restricted Ultra machine, or in econo-mode on level ground - you need to be in the correct gear or it will slip and ruin the transmission.
Anything else is imaginary tripe, no-one has a right to publish - regardless of 'the title', or 'entitlement' they assume.
Of course it works great for you chum. Dummy I am, forgive me, but building a performance machine and I'll take Pushkar's word, Optimax's experiences; 20 posts on Endlessphere, 50 more on euro sites and the Kindernay factory's disclaimers, over 'this is my first bike but', anecdotal experiences. The facts are clear - since 2020.
See Below:https://electricbikereview.com/foru...on-rohloff-kindernay-tests.35904/unread?new=1
[IMG alt="pushkar"]https://electricbikereview.com/forums/data/avatars/m/23/23889.jpg?1593208034[/IMG]

pushkar​

Well-Known Member​

I have done around 500 miles riding on the Archon (includes test rig and physical riding) across both Rohloff and Kindernay, and here are some results that riders should be aware of.

Wattage	Mode (as shipped)	Rohloff	Kindernay
750W	Eco	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
	Sport	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
1000W	Eco	All gears work 1-14.	All gears work 1-14.
	Sport	Gears 1-5, Slips beyond gear 5 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)	Gears 1-7, Slips beyond gear 7 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)
2300W	Eco	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
	Sport	Gears 1-2. Slips beyond gear 2 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. Total Torque exceeds 250Nm).	Gears 1-4. Slips beyond gear 4 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. Total Torque exceeds 250Nm).

Overall, 2 3 observations (added #3)

1. The Kindernay is turning out to be a little bit stronger, but not by much. I am biased because it is new / unique etc, but it is a little stronger in these tests.

2. Realistically the 1000W is probably more than enough for most, if not all scenarios. There is just a LOT of power.

3. This gear slipping also occurs on a chain / cassette system. A 12 Speed chain will break if you are not geared correctly, at right around 250-300Nm torque. A single speed thicker chain will slip on the cogs at 250Nm if geared incorrectly.

I will keep adding to this - but for riders who have the new controller with the Rohloff, please add to this.

I will include this on the site re-design in a few weeks.

Disclaimer: These are not super scientific tests and your values may differ slightly. That being said, we are trying to err on the side of caution and be a little more conservative.

Edit : added observation and disclaimer.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I'm not slamming your choice. In fact, I'm glad you report it's lasting just fine for you. That gives me hope.
I have the utmost respect for opinions of owners - tho I do wonder why some don't post photos of their machines?
You didn't say what wattage controller you ordered, or if you have an unlimited throttle - at least that I could find - so your perspective (750w limited controller build) could easily be a million miles from (2300w, unlimited controller build) mine.
What an ugly world this would be if we were all the same. Nothing would change.
I guess what I'm saying is 'sorry I aroused a bad feeling'. Not really right I learned a bunch of things from you, and it made you mad. lol
-
"The place where the Rohloff is most appropriate is on a low-powered mid drive in a very hilly region. This is because my experience has shown me that…the more power your system has, the fewer gears you need. Most “pedal only” bicyclists like to have as many gears as possible, but once you have added electric power to your bicycle, the need to frequently be shifting can become tedious." https://www.electricbike.com/mid-drive-kit-igh/
Owner's of Ultra w Kindernay's say they're shifting 3 gears at a time.
It has is high durability, and perfect alignment with the Gates (a very big deal).
Unfortunately, the former is still not up to an Ultra's potential oomph.
-
I take off from a full stop - a lot. Being lazy, often I don't bother to downshift. I simply use my twist throttle.
As the torque sensor feels comfortable, I lighten the throttle appropriately and pedal. It's a balancing act with an electric machine.
Rationalization for being stuck in the past: The first use of the twist grip throttle control was on the Roper steam velocipede of 1867-69. My 1946 Indian Scout had a twist throttle. I really like a 1/4 twist throttle. 1/2 twist, not so much.
The big difference is, thumb throttles have a very short range of control - response is touchy. A thumb pushing is way more jittery than a hand gripping.
I can cruise all day - or not - on my twist throttle. Very precise. 100% versatile and a joy to incorporate in any riding style.
Thumb throttle is never right, big pain to use by itself, either speeding up, or slowing down. Drive anyone away from a throttle.
-
So, just that feature changes the entire perspective. I'd prefer a 3 speed, 5 at most.
The center gear - being fixed - is strong. I can take off in 7th without killing the gears.
WW says the Kindernay is slightly stronger, better for my application and in 1000w Sport mode, I can take off from 7th gear (1/1 ratio).
Important to know what gear I'm in, but the hydraulic 'thumb shifter' kills the deal and manufacturer has no relief in sight.
I appreciate it is the better of the choices. You are 100% correct.
-
My speed range is from 0 - 30.
While 'overdrive' would be awesome, if I can get '0 - 30', tuning Gates drive sprockets with the right gearing/ a buffed single speed hub, and I have arrived. Also, I'd save +4lbs of weight - and (possibly) get to use Ti hubs ... which makes me feel good.
-
Just 1/4 throttle out of the hole up to 5mph - and blast off. Probably require the (wider), 132T Gates Belt for fat-tires.
100nm unleashed at 8 - 10mph and 200nm on tap around 20mph, all the way past 25mph, decreasing rapidly at 29mph
I think the G510 has the torque to cover my use range.
A BBSHD running a 48T front and 14T rear will do it just fine. https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?motor=MBBSHD&mid=true&gear=1&tr=14&tf=48 for a graph.
An 2300w ultra should do it in a wheel-stand !!!
-
TY for your knowledge and input

Best regards,

Fn'F

 

[opimax]

I have not posted here for a little so let me update

went over a 1000 miles yesterday, quoting my self from another thread today

“pls check on larger gearing for people who have a slow cadence (if at all lol)

yesterday I said ”This is ridiculous!” Out loud I was so amazed at the power of the bike , selected wrong gear and low power up a short hill and it still was able to accelerate up the hill and also again just cruising “can’t believe it continues to get even better“ about 2 hours later.

2300 watts is so over kill , not needed at all for me but seem to make use of it every now and then”

I have had some hiccups from my Kindernay and rear brakes which will be taken care ofin the near future when I pick up my other 2 bikes, I am not concerned about how I will be treated and have spoken to Pushkar already.

 

[opimax]

Let me throw in a few comments of mine from other posts here…1st no worries going off topic here, please be nice is all, even more than required

my thoughts on kinder vs rollhoff…my hands don’t twist well so button pushing will always be better. The kindernay will let you shift with less backing off the power , in between a hub shift where you don’t back off and the complete stopping of The rollhoff. I prefer the button for up and down being on opposite sides rather then the same side shifting. I change gears more than anything else so 1/2 the duty for each hand.

I find the lack of gear indicator worth fixing on the Kindernay. Takeoff from my bike is not consistent yet , not know which gear with too much power is scary, not enough and maybe fall or hurt bike if wrong gear. After take off not neeeded much a couple times maybe useful.

too many low gears are almost useless for my style of riding , I barely use the lowest 6 or 7 or 8…not sure since I don’t have an indicator and I could use another top gear or 2, still try to shift into a higher gear sometimes when I already am in the highest gear.

Fnf, please help me answer questions by making them more direct and simpler, I am not a bike oriented with knowledge, as you said I have experience since I own and ride this but that is it.

i Said I don’t like twist shift I have not really compared a light twist throttle to a thumb throttle , it would be neat to have both on the same bike and try them next to each other. As in many items you must compare a quality twist to a quality thumb to be fair , also spring tension I prefer may be verydifferent from what you prefer..

 

[scrambler]

@opimax,
Do you have the Kindernay on a belt or on chain?
What front sprocket and rear sprocket teeth number do you have?

 

[opimax]

West , just read your post on oil change , part of my issue is a little leak too, you make the 3rd known leak issue.

on the Kinetic, I weighed 198 yesterday at the Dr office plus water a little over 200 lbs I did have the seat pushed all the way forward which puts extra pressure, moved it back some. I will see if Pushkar has a heavier spring . Today I am putting in my fancy Ergon seat and adjusting the pedal screws in to save my shoes some extra wear.

 

[opimax]

I have a belt , would not want a chain any longer if I had a choice. Wore out a chain and 2 sprockets under 2000 miles on a Bosch motor, can’t imagine what this beast would do to chain drive. 1st set of gears replaced at 1200 miles told normal. That is every 12 -15 rides , ridiculous

ignore bold type,

I currently have the larger one which is 60 tooth I believe. Pushkar will be checking for next size up for me if available , fit , etc at some point. I would still like it but getting a little more used to what is on it.

 

[opimax]

Scrambler, misspelled opimax

 

[scrambler]

Scrambler, misspelled opimax

Fixed

With a belt, the only drawback is that you cant get below 22T at the back, that does limit the max speed, or require a really large front sprocket which is not always possible.

I wish Kindernay would revise their Hyseq shifter on the right, so it offers better clearance with the rear sprocket and belt.
This should definitely be possible for the 142mm and 148mm version, by adding extra space on the inside of the Hyseq instead of on the outside as they do now.
This would allow a 19T to be used like with Rohloff.

 

[opimax]

Lost me but sounds good , I would like to pedal harder and clown pedal less at speed

 

[Deacon Blues]

I'm still trying to decide what shifter setup I'll go with on the FS titanium UC Pro I just ordered.
Presently, I'm leaning towards a wireless SRAM eTap AXS groupset for the following reasons:
1. wireless, so there would be two less wires running up the outside of the frame.
2. If it fails or needs adjusting my local bike shops can do the work and/or replace parts.
3. I can go with a smaller ring in the hub cluster to increase the maximum pedalling speed.
4. I'm concerned that a number of Kindernay hubs have a leaking problem.

 

[opimax]

Ok finished today’s bike adjustments…replaced the seat with my fancy Ergon Core seat , no problem , may need fine tuning. Tried to screw in the shoe pegs in on the pedals , not able to do so, could not break them free, just rounded my 3 different Allen wrenches and a few of the screws , how do break them free?

 

[opimax]

I have wireless DI2 which came on a Stromer , best part of the bike (and the motor)
local shops good idea …. if they want to be
chains will be different but agree on the idea
doesn’t thrill me , trust Pushkar is my current motto ….which power level did you choose?