Vado 5.0 SL EQ Battery Optimization?

[BikeOn]

After about 3400 miles (which is really huge for me) on my Vado SL 5.0 EQ; 2100 miles which were put on in 2021, I'm enjoying the ride and preparing for some longer Rails to Trails rides this Spring/summer. I have two Range Extenders. Trying to find the sweet spot on battery life, overall mileage and time. For some reason it has't occurred to me to reset my Mission control presets, since the first month or so of riding. I have also discovered I just love that ZOOM of 100% Turbo.... going fast is grand. But it also sucks battery... as I'm sure you all know. It finally occurred to me to reset my Eco and Trail settings. Turbo was already set for 100%. Starting at 150% battery On a cold day, depending on wind, etc... - I could get about ten miles on Turbo before the battery level was about 104% or so. (starting the transition to turn off) Trail was set to 65% assistance which I rode at for a very long time - until I discovered the zoom of turbo; LOL - then going back to trail was tough. So I decided to set trail at 85% to see if that speed would make me happy, get me there at somewhat the same reasonable time and see what would happen with the battery. At 85% assistance it took the battery from 150% to 102% at 15 miles. Average speed went from about 17.5 mph to 15.5mph. (+/-). So basically I got about 5 more miles off the R.E. going from 100% to 85% assistance; or 1/3 more distance. I was surprised to see that much. I'll try different settings, and see if I can find the sweet spot. I'm wondering if others have tried different settings, (completing the ride without changing the setting) and what results they have seen. My goal is to get the most amount of miles in the least amount of time but keeping enough battery to finish a long ride. (70+/-) miles and to know the highest level of assistance I can squeeze out.

Thanks for Your thoughts?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Very interesting subject! And very hard to quantitatize. It is because riding a lightweight mid-drive motor e-bike is non-linear, and it depends on factors of your own power input or winds on a given day. Also, even if my area is pretty flat, I cannot tell you anything about the effect of elevation gain: as very small hills tend to accumulate on long rides even in the plains. Here's my data collection for Vado SL:

Note that the only dependent parameter that makes sense is the energy consumption per distance unit.

Non-linear, and hard to get a consistent data set. No data for very high assistance level.

Now, let us assume you could get the energy consumption at 10 Wh/mi for 70% assistance (I mean, 70/70% as it is how I set up my Vado SL: the same Max Motor Power as Support %). With the 320 Wh battery that would make 32 miles, with one extra extender that would be 48 miles, and it would be 64 miles with two range extenders. All with the assumption there are no significant hills on your way.

Now, I could make 72 miles on the main battery + a single RE. Yes but that was at 55% of average assistance, and the average speed was only 12.7 mph for that ride!

 

[BikeOn]

Thank you Stefan - you are a smart guy who exceeds my battery capacity. (LOL - that's a joke). Could you say a few words about your axis? I don't know what WH/KM and Wh/mi means. That would better help me to understand your graph.
My total ride this day was 36 miles, which is longer than normal for me at this stage. Average speed was 14.9mph, started with 150% battery and came home with 49% battery left on the main battery, using only one RE. Just going by numbers, one could assume at 85% assistance I could get another 18 or so miles from the 49% remaining main battery, and another 15 miles from a 2nd RE. Minus some for battery conservation and shut down so that's about 67 miles or so. Of course, for me and my fitness level that would be effected by fatigue, lunch stop, etc. My plan is to try the exact same route at a few different assistance levels: 80% and 75%, and 70%. I think the most telling number will be the amount of miles I can go on a typical ride before the first RE is depleted.

I do understand variables, including strengthening muscles balanced by each day a day older. But based on where I live my rides tend to be pretty consistent except for wind speed and direction, when I say pretty consistent I mean 9 X out of ten, on 100% turbo my RE is pretty depleted after 10 miles. That I have seen this so many times, is a big part of why I decided to run an experiment. In my case wind speed TENDS to be balanced by out and back rides.... however - I am really just trying to get a "most of the time" picture. I know there are many surprises along the way. I am short with old legs - five knee surgeries later and a herniated disc in my back - I can definitely tell that daily riding and pushing it hard has increased my strength and ability. I am riding further and longer than I was even six months ago. I've had my bike about 18 months. However my sit in the saddle time is not ever going to reach more than probably four hours a day... even with a lunch break. So my goal is to figure out a "most of the time" assistance level that get's me the furthest in that amount of time. Once I have that figured out, I can adjust up or down based on expected variables.

It's fun to learn and improve on skills and better understand the best way to use this bike.

All the best and Bike on!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Could you say a few words about your axis? I don't know what WH/KM and Wh/mi means. That would better help me to understand your graph.

It is watt-hours per kilometre or per mile. It is how much of energy is consumed on average from your batteries on the ride. If you ride on the main battery only, your battery capacity is 320 Wh, and each Range Extender adds 160 watt-hours. When you know how much of energy you have for your Vado SL, just divide the total capacity of the batteries by the consumption factor Wh/mi and you can estimate for how many miles you could ride.

Generally, assistance levels below and up to 50% give you long range at the cost of low average speed. Increase the assistance to 70% and you will see the range dramatically drop. Go for 100% Turbo, and you will notice the range has become ridiculous. It is because the faster you ride, the more energy is used but it is not linear! It is the third power (cube)! Meaning: need long range, ride slowly

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@BikeOn:

A little bit of information more. As I have ridden my Vado SL a lot recently, I could determine some reliable figures now. It has turned out that increasing the assistance from 70/70% to 100/100% had a dramatically bad influence on the battery range. Here's an example:

• 70/70% assistance: Internal battery: range of 48 km (30 mi); with 1 Range Extender: 72 km (45 mi); with 2 Range Extenders: 96.5 km (60 miles)
• 100/100% assistance: Internal battery: range of 25 km (less than 16 miles); with one RE: 38 km (less than 24 miles); with two REs: 50 km (31 miles).

Increasing assistance takes very a bad effect on the range, the battery longevity, and on the drive-train. I have found the assistance of 50/50% as optimal for pretty long range with enough of assistance although at greatly reduced speed.

 

[BikeOn]

@BikeOn:

A little bit of information more. As I have ridden my Vado SL a lot recently, I could determine some reliable figures now. It has turned out that increasing the assistance from 70/70% to 100/100% has a dramatically bad influence on the battery range. Here's an example:

• 70/70% assistance: Internal battery: range of 48 km (30 mi); with 1 Range Extender: 72 km (45 mi); with 2 Range Extenders: 96.5 km (60 miles)
• 100/100% assistance: Internal battery: range of 25 km (less than 16 miles); with one RE: 38 km (less than 24 miles); with two REs: 50 km (31 miles).

Increasing assistance takes very a bad effect on the range, the battery longevity, and on the drive-train. I have found the assistance of 50/50% as optimal for pretty long range with enough of assistance although at greatly reduced speed.

Thanks - I have an update as well. Will write later

 

[Nubnub]

@BikeOn:

A little bit of information more. As I have ridden my Vado SL a lot recently, I could determine some reliable figures now. It has turned out that increasing the assistance from 70/70% to 100/100% had a dramatically bad influence on the battery range. Here's an example:

• 70/70% assistance: Internal battery: range of 48 km (30 mi); with 1 Range Extender: 72 km (45 mi); with 2 Range Extenders: 96.5 km (60 miles)
• 100/100% assistance: Internal battery: range of 25 km (less than 16 miles); with one RE: 38 km (less than 24 miles); with two REs: 50 km (31 miles).

Increasing assistance takes very a bad effect on the range, the battery longevity, and on the drive-train. I have found the assistance of 50/50% as optimal for pretty long range with enough of assistance although at greatly reduced speed.

In your graph data, you are only considering assist (support?) level. Your figures here show the importance of also including peak power setting as well as bike speed. I'll simplify that the SL is 2x you and max elec power is 300 W. @ 70/70 if you output constant 100 W then the motor power is 2x100x(70%) = 140 W (which is less than the 70% of 300W peak power setting) . @ 100/100 motor power is 2x100x(100%)=200 W. _IF_ your power output were constant in both cases and if motor efficiency were the same at 140 vs 200 W output, obviously you'd be going faster with the 100/100 settings. Going faster for the same power is good for increasing Wh/distance but increasing motor output is bad. Factor in that going faster increases wind resistance also negatively affecting the Wh/distance as your numbers here point out.

Maybe do an experiment with settings but keep the bike speed the same. set peak power so it doesn't limit motor assist. then pedal at constant speed with different support levels. Say one try @35/100 and note motor power and Wh/distance for given speed. Then another try @70/70 reducing your effort to maintain the constant speed - and note that motor power and Wh/distance. Repeat at different assist levels until you find which setting gives the best Wh/distance (for that speed). Sell your research to the highest bidder.

At the end of the day tho, I don't think knowing if there is a sweet spot for motor efficiency will help the OP or me. Wind, elevation changes and personal preferences will all weigh heavier on how far I think I can go on a charge.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

In your graph data, you are only considering assist (support?) level.

You are totally correct (your whole post). I forgot to mention my 70% assistance means 70% Max Motor Power, etc. I understand how the Max Motor Power works; I only don't want to think about it the whole time, so that would be 35/35, 50/50, 70/70, 100/100. Not the best strategy but it works for me.

 

[mschwett]

@BikeOn:

A little bit of information more. As I have ridden my Vado SL a lot recently, I could determine some reliable figures now. It has turned out that increasing the assistance from 70/70% to 100/100% had a dramatically bad influence on the battery range. Here's an example:

• 70/70% assistance: Internal battery: range of 48 km (30 mi); with 1 Range Extender: 72 km (45 mi); with 2 Range Extenders: 96.5 km (60 miles)
• 100/100% assistance: Internal battery: range of 25 km (less than 16 miles); with one RE: 38 km (less than 24 miles); with two REs: 50 km (31 miles).

Increasing assistance takes very a bad effect on the range, the battery longevity, and on the drive-train. I have found the assistance of 50/50% as optimal for pretty long range with enough of assistance although at greatly reduced speed.

yes, the evil effects of the cubing of resistance as speed increases!

there's a related and interesting phenomenon if you use settings like 50/100 or 70/100 or even 70/70 on a class 3 or s-pedelec bike - the harder you pedal, the less range you have! consider two cases with the bike set to 100/100:

1. rider provides 100 watts of power on level ground. motor draws 200 watts, providing ±160 watts of useful power to the wheel. total of 260 watts, good for 20mph. battery lasts 1.5 hours, range is 30 miles.
   
   
2. rider provides 150 watts of power on level ground. motor draws 300 watts, providing ±240 watts of useful power to the wheel. total of 390 watts, good for 24mph. battery lasts 1 hour. range is 24 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!
   
   this is the genius of specialized settings; a rider who wishes to push a little harder in order to go further and faster can change his setting from 100/100 to 100/65, for the following scenario:
   
   
3. rider provides 150 watts of power on level ground. motor draws 200 watts (limited by the 65% max) , providing ±160 watts of useful power to the wheel. total of 310 watts, good for 22mph. battery lasts 1.5 hours. range is 33 miles.

and of course, the roadie next to you on an acoustic bike with skinny tires and drops with an FTP of 200w is going 22mph with range only limited by the number of energy bars in his pockets

 

[rochrunner]

1. rider provides 150 watts of power on level ground. motor draws 300 watts, providing ±240 watts of useful power to the wheel. total of 390 watts, good for 24mph. battery lasts 1 hour. range is 24 miles!!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent post, but I'm not clear on one thing in your examples. In the case above you have 150W from the rider and 300W from the battery; what calculation gives you the 240W number? 240 is 80% of 300, but where does that come from -- losses between motor power and the rear wheel?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@mschwett: I like your reasoning. Only Max Motor Power is one delivered to the chainring, not the Electrical Power which is Motor Power / Efficiency. For instance, I can max my Specialized 1.2s motor to get 520 W of mechanical power, and the readout in MC is 666 W. 1.2s motor efficiency = 0.78. (Or, do you talk about the SL 1.1 motor but I simply misunderstood you?)

Because your (1) 100 W rider creates 180 W of motor power, and that's translated to 180 / 0.8 = 225 W of the electrical power. (I insist the boost factor of the SL is 1.8, not 2x).

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Now, two Full Power 1.2s motor examples:

1. Rider power = 150 W. 100% Assistance Boost Factor of 1.2s = 3.2x. 100% Max Motor Power. Motor Power (mechanical) = 3.2 * 150 = 480 W (less than 520 Wh). At this moment, the Speed Vado rider has 150 + 480 = 630 W of total power at the chainring. A traditional cyclist must be very good to race with me. But... The battery power draw is 480 / 0.78 = 615 W. With the 604 Wh (new) battery it gives 59 minutes of the range only! Unless the motor gets overheated after 30 minutes and the rider would need to stop the ride to cool the motor and battery down.
   
   
2. As above but with 65% Max Motor Power. Whatever the rider tries, the motor mechanical power will be limited to 520 * 0.65 = 338 W. The rider will have 150 + 338 = 488 W to be used. 338 W / 0.78 = 433 W of electrical power. With the 604 Wh battery it means 1 h 23 minutes of riding.

I cannot translate available power to the velocity for a bike such as Vado 5.0 though.

the case above you have 150W from the rider and 300W from the battery; what calculation gives you the 240W number? 240 is 80% of 300

80% is the electrical efficiency of the SL 1.1 motor.

 

[mschwett]

@mschwett: I like your reasoning. Only Max Motor Power is one delivered to the chainring, not the Electrical Power which is Motor Power / Efficiency. For instance, I can max my Specialized 1.2s motor to get 520 W of mechanical power, and the readout in MC is 666 W. 1.2s motor efficiency = 0.78. (Or, do you talk about the SL 1.1 motor but I simply misunderstood you?)

Because your (1) 100 W rider creates 180 W of motor power, and that's translated to 180 / 0.8 = 225 W of the electrical power. (I insist the boost factor of the SL is 1.8, not 2x).

my examples used 80% of the battery draw (which is of course clearly shown by MC) as the useful power at the rear wheel - thus the 300 becomes 240.

whether the 1.8x or 2.0x is intended to be effective power or not, the actual power drawn from the battery while on 100/100 is in excess of twice the reported “rider power,” so my examples start there. easily verified by comparing the battery used to a predicted multiple of the reported average rider power in a long flat steady ride. in every example i recorded the power mutliple was in excess of the assist factor x 2, sometimes quite a bit more.

one day for scientific purposes i’m going to ride around the local outdoor public cycle track at as constant an output i can manage but with various motor output levels to see how closely the real world matches the calculator results!

… but back to the OP; the main reason range goes up so much as assist factor goes down is that speed goes down. even at a relatively high assist factor range would be excellent at single digit speeds!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

my examples used 80% of the battery draw (which is of course clearly shown by MC) as the useful power at the rear wheel - thus the 300 becomes 240.

whether the 1.8x or 2.0x is intended to be effective power or not, the actual power drawn from the battery while on 100/100 is in excess of twice the reported “rider power,” so my examples start there. easily verified by comparing the battery used to a predicted multiple of the reported average rider power in a long flat steady ride. in every example i recorded the power mutliple was in excess of the assist factor x 2, sometimes quite a bit more.

one day for scientific purposes i’m going to ride around the local outdoor public cycle track at as constant an output i can manage but with various motor output levels to see how closely the real world matches the calculator results!

… but back to the OP; the main reason range goes up so much as assist factor goes down is that speed goes down. even at a relatively high assist factor range would be excellent at single digit speeds!

It is good to talk with you @mschwett! You're very practical with your thinking!

 

[jodi2]

Here's my practical thinking: Ride with others and you realize that even 20-30W (that's 10% of the SL power) is enough to let your friends stay behind or to stay among fitter riders. If you use this amount of support all day, you get at least 300 miles and 20.000 feet of climbing out of your 200% of battery! ;-)
Riding alone makes you addicted to higher support... ;-)

mschwett calculations are interesting and good to know. I sometimes do similar calculations, even more complex, how to get more range or higher average speed out of the battery. But only with our electric car. Of course I sometimes also need to "plan" the SL battery live for longer trips or to reduce support to have some rest for the last hill before home. But even now knowing a little bit more about the SL's support characteristics I would never really follow them very strict on a tour. Choosing level1/2/3/off is more then enough for this. On the eBike and especially an a light one with a light assist drive like the SL I use the support as I like or my body or the tour profile needs it and my motivation allows it that day. And it's good to know at every ride, that there's always still the option to get home even with empty battery and an relatively light bike.

 

[rochrunner]

Here's my practical thinking: Ride with others and you realize that even 20-30W (that's 10%) is enough to let your friends stay behind or to stay among fitter riders. If you use this amount of support all day, you get at least 300 miles and 20.000 feet of climbing out of your 200% of battery! ;-)
Riding alone makes you addicted to higher support... ;-)

I agree with you on this. When riding by myself, even if I start out planning on doing an "easy ride", at some point I'll get bored or feel in a hurry to get to some destination (I can almost taste that ice cream cone! ), and start kicking up the boost to speed up.

 

[kahn]

I agree with you on this. When riding by myself, even if I start out planning on doing an "easy ride", at some point I'll get bored or feel in a hurry to get to some destination (I can almost taste that ice cream cone! ), and start kicking up the boost to speed up.

It varies. When riding by myself I may pick up the speed but also tend to stop more frequently to take photos.