Vado 5.0 SL: Decreased battery range after motor replacement

[Stefan Mikes]

Kinda curious about something...does anyone know when we upgrade the battery down the road if the face plate on the new battery is transferable to the new battery? I see some screws but the lbs said it's "glued" but his opinions about things seemed questionable....She loves the color of her bike and I'd like to keep it all one color instead of a black battery on there looking obvious.

I think it might be glued, or, connected by delicate latches. When you order a new battery, you should order the battery cover at the same time. It is not guaranteed you can get the cover in your wife's bike colour, though. Bear in mind, you can still use the old battery until it gets down to, say, 70% health. Rotating batteries will help their longevity. (I am a "spare battery" man, and typically carry the spare in a pannier on my long rides).

As far as her Como she has complained that sometimes it's too easy. It's 95% flats where we live so I think the 100/100 setting is all she would need for the occasional hill. Since her bike is so heavy plus she has a storage bag on the back she needs the bailout 100/100. But other than that I need to dial back these other setting IMO.

Full power Como and Vado are different from SL e-bikes. Of course, your wife has to have the emergency 100/100 setting for big hills (I'm doing the same on my "big" Vado).

 

[Nubnub]

This must be a very interesting setting for an SL e-bike. I'm going to try it and compare with my 110+ km on 60/60 (with Range Extender). Do you think BEC 35/100 would do for 70 miles on the flat?

70 miles / 300 Wh (rounding down from 320 to account for staying out of reduced power) is about 4.2 Wh/mile. On the flats this should be plenty of assist. The bike will definitely feel more lively than the stock Eco settings. However you may be surprised at the battery usage as the 100 peak power setting will boost the assist/battery drain in the moments your rider power is increased for accelerations and headwinds. The default 35 peak power setting would limit the max motor power reading to around 100 W. If you monitor with Blevo or Mission control - you will see 100 peak power setting will boost the assist to easily exceed this even if you don't feel you are riding strenuously.

 

[BEC111]

70 miles / 300 Wh (rounding down from 320 to account for staying out of reduced power) is about 4.2 Wh/mile. On the flats this should be plenty of assist. The bike will definitely feel more lively than the stock Eco settings. However you may be surprised at the battery usage as the 100 peak power setting will boost the assist/battery drain in the moments your rider power is increased for accelerations and headwinds. The default 35 peak power setting would limit the max motor power reading to around 100 W. If you monitor with Blevo or Mission control - you will see 100 peak power setting will boost the assist to easily exceed this even if you don't feel you are riding strenuously.

I agree. 70 miles with the RE with these assist settings is possible. I’ve gone 60 before a charge at those settings. I had about 25% battery left. Since I planned a longish ride the next day, I charged then. Probably could have gotten 70-80 before energy saving kicked in.

For context, I’m 5’7”, about 150 pounds and 73 years old. I mostly ride the W&OD rail trail between Vienna and Purcellville Virginia. So shallow hills on pavement.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

about 150 pounds

I wish I lost 50 pounds

Thank you for the interesting idea, guys!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Some interesting (and inconclusive) findings...

I have made an analysis of my several long Vado SL rides. Extrapolated the range for the main battery + Range Extender, assuming that 140% of the combined batteries are usable.

The horizontal axis is the assistance level, and the vertical axis is the estimated range.

There are two breakpoints. Assistance just below the 60/60% is safe for distances up to 116 km (72 miles). Next, 44% assistance makes the range huge (at the cost of average speed).

Of course, the data are for myself, are affected by elevation gain (sometimes, there are mild rolling hills in my greater neighbourhood). Sometimes the wind direction on a loop ride was changing, too. One thing is clear for me. Unless the 35/100% test ride brings positive outcome, I know now what to expect for my future rides.

While 60/60% assistance might be acceptable, the energy consumption above that is certainly prohibitive, unless we're talking about shorter, faster rides.

 

[BEC111]

Your precision fits my empirical perceptions. Even set at 35/100 most of my riding is at the 35-60 assist range. You ride bigger distances that I. Most of my rides are 20 - 30 kilometers with a 40 - 50 kilometer one every couple of weeks.

Most of my riding gang are happiest at the shorter distances. Even the other e-bikers.

 

[AzDave]

So we took a ride tonight. I changed the values on mission control. The one she used was eco mode 35/35. Before with factory setting we were running was 35/100...Anyway 22% left for a ride that was 30 miles. Before the motor was replaced she would have 45% left at least...60% when the bike was newer. She went through NINE PERCENT in the first 4.8 miles ...on minimum power! So will take it to lbs tomorrow...with no clue whats going on. Kinda bummed the mission contols settings didn't work 'much'. Definitely worth trying and learned some things there though.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

30 miles or 50 kilometres. 500 Wh battery. 22% battery left. 9 percent battery over 7.7 km... (1.16 battery % per km). What was the average speed on that ride?

Hmm... Dave, I cannot say anything on the terrain you're riding, on your wife's fitness, any hills met, anything about the wind but... The data you have just presented seem pretty normal for a full power Vado or Como. Did you say the battery health was 90%? Let us make a little calculation.

500* Wh battery (new) is now 0.9 * 500 = 450 Wh when fully charged. 78% of that charge was used for the ride, or 0.78 * 450 = 351 Wh. The energy usage factor was 351 / 30 = 11.7 Wh/mi or 7 Wh/km. Now: My consumption for Vado is between 6.25-6.87 Wh/km for similar assistance levels as your wife used on her last ride.

It is not necessarily that there's anything principally wrong with her Como 3. There's one thought that occurred to me.

@Art Deco rides a Como 3, and he's insisting his motor is the economic Specialized 1.2e. Some Como 3 were specified with more powerful Specialized 1.2 motor. Could it be your wife originally had the 1.2e motor, and that was replaced with the 1.2?

---------------
*) Or, the 480 Wh battery?

 

[AzDave]

Hey Stefan,

Ok you got me thinking again. I have to admit I was a bit conflicted tonight. I had doubts and playing both sides meaning sometimes it seemed bad and other times not so much. I even questioned Kim like "You have 39% left and we traveled 28 miles...that doesn't seem bad to me". But she countered me with "Yeah but it's been on eco the whole time and harder to pedal than before because it's 35/35 instead of the usual 35/100...I'm used to getting more than this"

Ok here are some facts about the ride and in general...

Almost no wind at all which frankly was unusual

Virtually 100% flats on this route. Not even a small hill.

Yes the battery shows degraded to 90% capacity

Average speed 12mph

Battery use at different stages were...

Distance 4.8 miles 9% used
Distance 9.1 miles 18% used
Distance 15.4 miles 32% used
Distance 19.6 miles 41% used
Distance 25.0 miles 54% used
Distance 28.0 miles 61% used
As a test the last 4 miles I told her to put it on turbo which is 100/100.
Final reading was 32.1 miles 78% used

She won't tell me her weight...ever But I will say she is above average in height and weight but I don't wanna say cuz she is reading this thread with me Also we have a bag in tow and we carry a lot of stuff...so weight is significant...very significant. Her effort level however is also very significant. She has come a long ways and her endurance and strength is above average as well. We are both early fifties in age.

So we had the Como 3.0 tested a couple days ago...everything checked out under diagnosis. That plus your detailed statistical analysis..I'm starting to think we might be high or something ..but...We are very experienced riders who know our routes and the new motor 'seems' to be draining more juice. But the battery is degrading (as they all do) and weather conditions are always unique.

Your comments about the motor are VERY insightful and I even brought that up on the ride home. I said "How do we know it's the same motor they replaced...they make upgrades and modifications all the time" So now I know there are 1.2 and 1.2e motors which is so helpful to know. You may be exactly right and that could be most of what is going on. She might have had the 12e motor and now has the 12 motor. That plus natural battery degradation (and other factors) may add up to what we are encountering. Plus just checked these specs on her Como (12e was the original motor) on the Specialized website:

Motor	Specialized 1.2 E, custom Rx Street-tuned motor, 250W nominal
Battery	Specialized U1-460, On/Off button, state of charge display, 460Wh

One final tidbit...or clue...the ride prior for the first time we used smart control and programmed Distance into it and let it do its thing (meaning it picks the power level for you). When we did that power drains were much less...but effort levels had to increase somewhat...but not drastic I think.

Anyway thanks Stefan You gave my brain much to ponder and now I have more details to discuss with the lbs. Honestly though I'm starting to feel this mystery is solved. It's probably the more powerful 12 motor that was installed.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

And the battery is the 460 Wh! Meaning the actual full charge was 414 Wh, and the consumption factor of 6.46 Wh/km. Perfectly normal for the 1.2 motor at this assistance level.

Do you use BLEvo David? You could use it alternately (per ride) for each of your Specialized ebikes. The most interesting post ride data are:

• Actual battery charge pre-ride
• Ditto, post-ride
• Consumption figure per mile or kilometre (units can be set in the app)
• Percentage of actual average assistance per ride
• Biker power
• Motor power (expressed in energy draw from the battery, multiply by 0.78 for Como, 0.8 for SL)
• And any other detail for the ride except of wind interaction.

 

[AzDave]

So to add even more...Ive been on the Specialized website for the Como's.

Como 3.0 has 1.2 E street tuned motor
Como 4.0 has 1.2 street tuned motor
Como 5.0 has 1.3 trail tuned motor

So pretty certain that as a replacement motor we got the 1.2 or the 1.3 motor. I think Kim mentioned a slightly higher top speed this last ride before the motor cut out.

I think the only way out of this to do our 'epic' 80+ rides again this winter is to get the bigger 604w battery. The battery will be newer as well obviously. Don't wanna spend a grand on it though when our current battery isn't shot yet...ugh!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I think the only way out of this to do our 'epic' 80+ rides again this winter is to get the bigger 604w battery. The battery will be newer as well obviously. Don't wanna spend a grand on it though when our current battery isn't shot yet...ugh!

Remember to order the battery cover, too. I wouldn't throw the old battery under the bus. Kim could rotate batteries or even carry a spare in a pannier. Only carrying the spare battery enabled me to make over 100 miles!

Como 3.0 has 1.2 E street tuned motor

On some archive webpage, Spesh listed Como 3.0 with the 1.2 motor... That made me real thinking.

 

[kahn]

And the battery is the 460 Wh! Meaning the actual full charge was 414 Wh, and the consumption factor of 6.46 Wh/km. Perfectly normal for the 1.2 motor at this assistance level.

Do you use BLEvo David? You could use it alternately (per ride) for each of your Specialized ebikes. The most interesting post ride data are:

• Actual battery charge pre-ride
• Ditto, post-ride
• Consumption figure per mile or kilometre (units can be set in the app)
• Percentage of actual average assistance per ride
• Biker power
• Motor power (expressed in energy draw from the battery, multiply by 0.78 for Como, 0.8 for SL)
• And any other detail for the ride except of wind interaction.

Hope you don't mind my dropping in. Re: Blevo - it canNOT be used at the same time as Mission Control? Can they both be installed at the same time but only open and use one of them?

I find that in my Seattle rides (most have hills) that I use between 2% and 3% per mile. But maybe I should give Blevo a run and see more detailed stats.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

it canNOT be used at the same time as Mission Control?

It cannot. It is because either app is taking the single available Bluetooth connection. Of course, both can be installed but if one of them is connected to the bike, the other won't connect at the same time. Note: BLEvo has many more features than MC.

 

[AzDave]

And the battery is the 460 Wh! Meaning the actual full charge was 414 Wh, and the consumption factor of 6.46 Wh/km. Perfectly normal for the 1.2 motor at this assistance level.

Do you use BLEvo David? You could use it alternately (per ride) for each of your Specialized ebikes. The most interesting post ride data are:

• Actual battery charge pre-ride
• Ditto, post-ride
• Consumption figure per mile or kilometre (units can be set in the app)
• Percentage of actual average assistance per ride
• Biker power
• Motor power (expressed in energy draw from the battery, multiply by 0.78 for Como, 0.8 for SL)
• And any other detail for the ride except of wind interaction.

Will have to look into that. Just checked it out at the play store. It looks good. But it's Kims bike and she just learned mission control

BTW I just gave her the news and she is ticked off...She wants Specialized to make things like before. I'm like maybe they don't even make your old motor anymore...plus I don't see another battery for sale but the current 604W one. And this is an uphill battle because there are no error codes on anything. Hard to fight what you can't see. She said she's going to talk with Specialized. I heard stories about Specialized giving deals on parts out of warranty to make customers happy. We are still under warranty so don't know whats possible. A new battery seems like the only way out. Her Como 3.0 already started with a lessor 460W battery vs Como 4.0 500W vs Como 5.0 600W. Plus you throw in a degraded battery and a more powerful motor then the range decreases more. I wonder if they would give a price break on a new battery...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

They might have a spare 1.2e. (Are you aware that will put the Como at Class 1?) However, consider this: The 1.2 motor is 72 Nm, and has 3.2x amplification factor. That's very good for hills. 604 Wh... I think it is good Specialized offer that size. Kim will discover how useful the bigger battery is, and you will still have the spare! (And no, don't expect discounts).

 

[AzDave]

They might have a spare 1.2e. (Are you aware that will put the Como at Class 1?) However, consider this: The 1.2 motor is 72 Nm, and has 3.2x amplification factor. That's very good for hills. 604 Wh... I think it is good Specialized offer that size. Kim will discover how useful the bigger battery is, and you will still have the spare! (And no, don't expect discounts).

Her Como was already Class 1. It's good to know about the hills though. Frankly I'm on board with a more powerful motor and already said as much. Yeah I see your logic totally. It's all about range to her though...and wanting to use more power. All that requires more battery! Normally I would just go get it but uhh...I did just get my Creo expert...with S Works mirror seat......we are even spending a small fortune on our biking wardrobe I mean this is getting hard now darn it. We are going to end up homeless with nowhere to charge our bikes!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It might give some idea what could be necessary for a really long ride (I of course understand Dave that you both are more fit than I am).

 

[AzDave]

It might give some idea what could be necessary for a really long ride (I of course understand Dave that you both are more fit than I am).

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It's just weird...last year we did an 86 mile ride (138km) and sometimes she rode with no power to conserve her battery. And I had no power because I didn't have my Creo then (Roubaix)...but now we have these issues! Having a motor and battery is more things to go wrong...but its so much FUN when things are right. I'm sure we'll eventually get the better battery but hers isn't shot yet...she's just spoiled and thinks Specialized will come through. I wish her luck!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

she rode with no power

Perhaps more without the power than with?

Dave: when I had a new Giant Trance E+., a 25 km/h e-MTB with 500 Wh battery and I used to ride it on the flat (forest service roads at hardest), my maximum range in standard Giant Eco mode was 40 miles, and it was typically less than that... There is something I won't understand here. Note: On the flat, rider's weight only affects the power consumption for acceleration and for nothing else!

P.S. SL e-bikes use 2-3 times less energy because they rely very much on the rider's input.