Upgrade charger (2018)

What is this $10 timer that is able to sense a Radpower battery's charge level and then varythe charge rate coming out of the Radpower standard charger based on it? I have a bit of electrical background and that sounds almost impossible -- I have a AA/AAA battery charger that can do that, but it's more than just a timer, it's a charger itself, and was more than $10 -- but I'd love to be wrong!
The sensing comes from you...if you end a ride two bars down, then you know that's going to take in excess of three hours to recharge.
So, dial in two hours on the timer and you'll be in the neighborhood of 80% charge. Top it off with another charge just before riding and you'll be good.

I just got off a fast 27 mi. in Pas 2/3 and have three bars down...so I put the timer on three hours tor the same effect. The $9.99 solution.
 
The sensing comes from you
Well, OK. But I think you create a certain impression with statements like "I can dial in any amount of charge I want" and "My ten dollar timer allows me to slow charge (best for the battery) based on % of charge remaining" You may not be aware of this, but the best Li-Ion chargers actually do slow the rate of charge as the battery approaches "full," they have feedback circuitry to detect it. I have one for AA/AAA cells. Your mention of "slow charge" implies there is more than one rate of charge using the radpower standard charger and a simple timer, like the more sophisticated chargers out there, and AFAIK there isn't, there is just on & off, the charger is "smart" only in the sense that it has an auto shutoff. I just want to clear that up for anyone else reading this later an think the radpower charger is more sophisticated than it actually is.

I think you also may have misled Thomas when you said "Rad says to only use the supplied charger," prompting him to say "Rad is being ridiculous." Where does Rad say this? I can't find this anywhere in my RadCity user manual. Under warranty all it says is
Rad Power Bikes’ lithium ion batteries are warranted to be free from manufacturing defects in materials and/or workmanship for a 1 year period from the date of original purchase. The battery warranty does not include damage from power surges, use of improper charger, improper maintenance or other such misuse, normal wear or water damage.
"Improper charger" does not mean the same thing as "non-Radpower charger." Is there someplace else that they explicitly say "only use the supplied charger?"
 
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What is this $10 timer that is able to sense a Radpower battery's charge level and then varythe charge rate coming out of the Radpower standard charger based on it? I have a bit of electrical background and that sounds almost impossible -- I have a AA/AAA battery charger that can do that, but it's more than just a timer, it's a charger itself, and was more than $10 -- but I'd love to be wrong!
Larry like others has learned by observation and using a clock just how long it takes to bring up the charge from various levels to the desired level, He and the rest of us that do, simply set the timer for the calculated charge time. It takes a few tries and some common sense, but very doable. The timer hasn't any sense, it depends on yours.
 
The sensing comes from you...if you end a ride two bars down, then you know that's going to take in excess of three hours to recharge.
So, dial in two hours on the timer and you'll be in the neighborhood of 80% charge. Top it off with another charge just before riding and you'll be good.

I just got off a fast 27 mi. in Pas 2/3 and have three bars down...so I put the timer on three hours tor the same effect. The $9.99 solution.
Add a multimeter. Bars are a 35 cent electronic INDICATOR, not a meter.
 
Well, OK. But I think you create a certain impression with statements like "I can dial in any amount of charge I want" and "My ten dollar timer allows me to slow charge (best for the battery) based on % of charge remaining" You may not be aware of this, but the best Li-Ion chargers actually do slow the rate of charge as the battery approaches "full," they have feedback circuitry to detect it. I have one for AA/AAA cells. Your mention of "slow charge" implies there is more than one rate of charge using the radpower standard charger and a simple timer, like the more sophisticated chargers out there, and AFAIK there isn't, there is just on & off, the charger is "smart" only in the sense that it has an auto shutoff. I just want to clear that up for anyone else reading this later an think the radpower charger is more sophisticated than it actually is.

I think you also may have misled Thomas when you said "Rad says to only use the supplied charger," prompting him to say "Rad is being ridiculous." Where does Rad say this? I can't find this anywhere in my RadCity user manual. Under warranty all it says is

"Improper charger" does not mean the same thing as "non-Radpower charger." Is there someplace else that they explicitly say "only use the supplied charger?"

2018 Radcity Rad Power Bikes Owner's Manual:

Page 15 - "Do not charge the battery with any other chargers then (sic) what was originally supplied with your Rad Power Bike or a charger purchased directly from Rad Power Bikes for use with your specific bike serial number, as approved by Rad Power Bikes."

Page 32 - "Failure to properly charge, store or use your battery will void the warranty and may cause a hazardous situation."

Page 34 - "The battery warranty does not include damage from power surges, use of improper charger, improper maintenance or any other such misuse, normal wear or water damage."

Based on the above, I'd say they don't want you using another charger, unless of course they approve it.
 
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There are no simple answers here. To my knowledge, many (most?) batteries in use on e-bikes have battery management circuitry built into them (NOT the charger) designed to individually balance the cells that make up the battery as a whole. This is to keep the cells in the center of the battery charging/charged to the same level the cells on either end, in effect, balancing the charge in ALL of the individual cells.

How using a timer on a charger attached to one of these batteries is going to affect the battery's balancing circuit is a mystery here. From what I've seen, the chargers on smaller packs (that have the balancing circuit built into the charger) that I use in radio control will charge at a fairly high rate at the beginning of a cycle, eventually tapering off as it balances the charge in each individual cell, topping them off so they all match very closely. My concern for using a timer is the possibility that an early cutoff time could affect this "balancing" part of a charge cycle.

Your call here, I don't know for sure. I would suggest using a timer at your own risk as there is a possibility you are doing more harm than good.

Call me paranoid if you like, but I will continue using (trusting) the charger circuitry to kick off the power at the correct time (voltage). I'll also continue avoiding the use of the bottom of the charge as well. -Al
 
2018 Radcity Rad Power Bikes Owner's Manual:

Page 15 - "Do not charge the battery with any other chargers then (sic) what was originally supplied with your Rad Power Bike or a charger purchased directly from Rad Power Bikes for use with your specific bike serial number, as approved by Rad Power Bikes."
I stand corrected. However it's interesting they are not that explicit under the warranty section (where I looked because that's what you expressed concern about).
 
How using a timer on a charger attached to one of these batteries is going to affect the battery's balancing circuit is a mystery here. From what I've seen, the chargers on smaller packs (that have the balancing circuit built into the charger) that I use in radio control will charge at a fairly high rate at the beginning of a cycle, eventually tapering off as it balances the charge in each individual cell, topping them off so they all match very closely. My concern for using a timer is the possibility that an early cutoff time could affect this "balancing" part of a charge cycle.
Good questions, but on the other hand if this is the case then Radpower really ought to indicate that somewhere in their manual as a best practice to leave it charging until the light goes green, and I don't believe they do? (see p. 12-15). After all, a timer cut-off is no different than just stopping charger before light is green manually. On the contrary, they say at one point that the battery has no memory effect at all, implying not to worry about it.

But on the other hand they also don't give any hint of the potential downsides of charging > 80% or draining completely, so maybe it's unwise to trust their manual at all for definitive information on best practices.
 
Not expanding on the charging technicals implies they either don't know, or they don't want to confuse/bore customers/users, who may not be technically inclined (or give a darn). There's a LOT of ground they don't cover in that manual. Not sticking up for them as I don't regard much of the staff (the ones I've spoken with) very highly. Just pointing out this is an owners manual, not a service/overhaul manual, which may or may not go into the detail we need to answer this question....
 
I'm comfortable using a timer, as staying in the 20-80% window, which includes all non-usage time, seems to be the important idea...the deterioration of cells, oxidation or whatever, seems to be accelerated outside of this window...for my $1100 of batteries, way more than the rest of the bike cost, I'm good with this management system.
 
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Your call here, I don't know for sure. I would suggest using a timer at your own risk as there is a possibility you are doing more harm than good.

Call me paranoid if you like, but I will continue using (trusting) the charger circuitry to kick off the power at the correct time (voltage). I'll also continue avoiding the use of the bottom of the charge as well. -Al
OK paranoid. Many Battery BMS do NOT have balance functions and require charging to 100% and for longer 6hrs, and monitored. (always monitor ANY charging battery). I've got dozens of if not scores of reports of success. Charging to 80%-90% routinely and 100% occasionally can DOUBLE battery life. NOT create ANY problem. I woudn't call you paranoid, but I will say lacking experience.
 
You're method for establishing the 80-90% level (consistantly) using a timer?

Your source for (relevant) data suggesting they've doubled their battery life?

I do lack experience specific to the size of the batteries used with e-bikes, but not the cells that they consist of. Still, I am always looking to learn something new. I do look for trusted sources, as I've learned good info must be sorted from internet hearsay. MANY sources are nothing more than a person that's read somebody's opinion, accepted it as true, and are now spouting that info as fact......

I've been an avid user of LiPo and LiFe technology since the days it first started replacing NiCad, so not completely ignorant on the topic. -Paranoid
 
You're method for establishing the 80-90% level (consistantly) using a timer?

Your source for (relevant) data suggesting they've doubled their battery life?

I do lack experience specific to the size of the batteries used with e-bikes, but not the cells that they consist of. Still, I am always looking to learn something new. I do look for trusted sources, as I've learned good info must be sorted from internet hearsay. MANY sources are nothing more than a person that's read somebody's opinion, accepted it as true, and are now spouting that info as fact......

I've been an avid user of LiPo and LiFe technology since the days it first started replacing NiCad, so not completely ignorant on the topic. -Paranoid
All at your finger tips by way of Google. Here’s a start...
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

As to using a charger, a multimeter, a timer, and consistently Charging to 80%-90% it’s anecdotal but a simply process and you can prove it to yourself with some note taking and observing the process. I can get within 1% accuracy should I be that anal retentive. Well I take that back, I am AR and use a Satiator! YMMV!
 
Sorry, we'll need to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not going to read an encyclopedia to prove YOUR point.

I like the idea of using the 80-90% plan (thinking doubling the battery life doing that is a bit of a stretch though), but see no way of maintaining battery cell balance (across the entire pack) when doing so. Experience has taught me that without balancing, eventually battery cells become so imbalanced some are charged to levels exceeding 4.2 volts - which leads to failure.
 
Sorry, we'll need to agree to disagree on this point. I'm not going to read an encyclopedia to prove YOUR point.

I like the idea of using the 80-90% plan (thinking doubling the battery life doing that is a bit of a stretch though), but see no way of maintaining battery cell balance (across the entire pack) when doing so. Experience has taught me that without balancing, eventually battery cells become so imbalanced some are charged to levels exceeding 4.2 volts - which leads to failure.
I never denied balancing. Some of us have found that occasional long charges, monitored, will balance packs without balancing function on the BMS. My experience is based on management of a dozen personal batteries and supporting scores. I have lots to learn, but have picked up a few successful techniques.
 
OK paranoid. Many Battery BMS do NOT have balance functions and require charging to 100% and for longer 6hrs, and monitored. (always monitor ANY charging battery). I've got dozens of if not scores of reports of success. Charging to 80%-90% routinely and 100% occasionally can DOUBLE battery life. NOT create ANY problem. I woudn't call you paranoid, but I will say lacking experience.
i believe the rad batteries have balance function, and if they are anything at all like the balance function in rc lipo chargers the last hour or so can be all balance cycling. at that point most of the cells would already be at 100% with the balance circuitry working to bring up the remaining cells. if thats the case using a timer would be pointless and harmful as by design the bms would require a full charge to balance the pack. just saying, am i wrong?
 
That's my thinking - until I can find more detail.
 
i dont know if its helpful but i try to go a mile or two ride right after a full charge, just to take a little off the top. my bike might sit for weeks and i wont charge it and it remains showing a full charge, ill go for a ride knock it down to 40 or 50% and do another full charge, then a short ride to take some of the steam off so to speak before putting it away for the next time,
 
I believe the rad batteries have balance function, and if they are anything at all like the balance function in RC lipo chargers the last hour or so can be all balance cycling. at that point, most of the cells would already be at 100% with the balance circuitry working to bring up the remaining cells. if that's the case using a timer would be pointless and harmful as by design the bms would require a full charge to balance the pack. just saying, am I wrong?
I've found, based on my 10 or more batteries (personal use 36V, 48V, and 52V EM3ev, Luna, CA eBike and China direct), that packs don't need to be balanced every charge. 80% charges over a 4 year period with monthly 100% charges to balance hasn't hurt any battery I own or any battery any customer owns. Storing batteries for weeks at a time can be quite hard on them.
 
BTW I'm firmly in the Satiator camp. I set the charger to the percentage of charge I want, and every so often charges to 100%. Always to 50% for storage of more than a week or two.
 
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