Trek Super Commuter (SuperCommuter) (comparison to XM700+)

[ROJA]

I didn't see a thread on this bike, so I thought I'd post one.

Here's the info I've seen so far (on the 8+, is there a 9+ coming?):

Bosch mid drive (Performance Speed)

Motor = Bosch Performance Speed, 250Watt, 75Nm (versus 350W, 60 N-M in the XM)


Range = "at least 30 miles of high speed riding" (compared to 15 with the XM700+)

Top speed = ??? (my bold prediction is it's 20 and not 28 mph. the XM specs say 28 all over but I don't see a speed on the 8+ specs; maybe there will be a 9+ that is a 28 mph model?)

Battery = Bosch Powerpack 500 (vs. 400 on the XM)

Sizing = also weird and looks very large like the XM but there's a smaller size 45 cm that doesn't exist in the XM

Controller = Bosch Purion (vs. Intuvia Performance) (no clue if that's an improvement)

Fork = carbon rigid (vs. the headshock thingy on the XM)

Components mostly Deore/SLX (mostly a step better than XM, although not sure about how brakes or wheels compare)

Tires - much bigger (2.4, which is = 61 mm) (compare to the 38s on the XM)


http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/city-bikes/electric-city-bikes/super-commuter/c/B449 (avail Spring 2017)



pics here: http://overvolted.com/trek-super-commuter/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/4vuq7t/trek_announces_new_boschpowered_28mphcapable/

Thoughts? Will this replace or supplement the XM? XM is faster and more powerful, but has a smaller battery and is frankly not nearly as good looking!

 

[Cameron Newland]

The Super Commuter 8+ will top out at 28MPH in the US. The European version will use the CX motor, so I think it'll be limited to 20MPH, but in Europe, the 9+ is available for a few hundred more euros, and it goes 45km/h.

 

[ROJA]

Good- definitely makes sense given the nice machinery. I had read a couple of places that the 8+ had a 20 mph top speed, but I guess that was incorrect or referred to the EU or other places:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...s-new-super-commuter-ebike-in-the-works.6855/

etc.

 

[Bike_On]

High speed pedelecs >>> get a nice air fork with lockout! Come on people, are we not learning anything about high speed, long haul riding?

Ok, *IF* Ravi gets on here and debunks my assertion based upon him riding 5100 miles on an ST2 with a rigid fork, then I will take that back. But my experience over 8 years of riding 20-30mph is that I want and NEED front suspension with lockout for all around performance.

 

[Over50]

I hope they will a stealthier (ie drab) color option. That brilliant red draws too much attention (for my taste). As discussed on other threads: some of us considering urban commuter bikes prefer something a bit less attention grabbing.

 

[Bike_On]

It is a nice looking mid drive with the motor integrated tight. Id like to see more specs.

 

[E-Wheels]

High speed pedelecs >>> get a nice air fork with lockout! Come on people, are we not learning anything about high speed, long haul riding?

Ok, *IF* Ravi gets on here and debunks my assertion based upon him riding 5100 miles on an ST2 with a rigid fork, then I will take that back. But my experience over 8 years of riding 20-30mph is that I want and NEED front suspension with lockout for all around performance.

Bike_On,
Looks like they are betting on the rigid carbon fork giving enough compliance in lieu of a suspension fork option

 

[opimax]

I don't think I would have kept my ST2 if I didn't get the suspension fork. I fell once at slow speeds after hitting a pot hole with the rigid front fork too, think this helps aside from comfort.

 

[ROJA]

How important is torque (versus power)? Interesting that the 250W motor has more torque than the 350W. It seems to me like the greater torque would only really be a factor at a really low cadence (maybe the first few pedal strokes taking off, especially up a hill) but that power is much more important, especially once you're moving. If I like to pedal at a high cadence and won't be doing any hills at under 4 mph, then lower torque won't be a problem, right?

 

[opimax]

I cant answer your question but i can guess that more torque will feel closer to rear hub motor. I would bet you would have to ride the 2 and just make your own choice on that 1

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I can try to explain your question about torque and power. Torque is the raw force. Power is the summation of that force over a period of time. You have twice the power if you produce a certain torque (ex 60 Newton meters) at a cadence of 100 vs cadence of 50. So power relates to ultimate speed. Torque is part and parcel for the calculation of power but it is an important factor in starting off the line and in climbing.

A 250 watt motor with more torque (compared to a 350 watt motor) likely have those amazing torque figures at lower cadence rate but losses steam at mid to higher cadence rate. You probably lose those torque assist before reaching a cadence of 90 RPM. This applies more to mid drives.

A hub drive is different, it is a single speed and operates efficiently at a certain window. So there can be more chances for it to be operating less efficiently. It also needs a bigger motor (500 watts) to compensate and to have adequate torque when starting. Or it can be a regular sized motor (250-350 watts) but geared down for adequate off-the-line torque and climbing ability while sacrificing top speed.

With hub drive, you can choose whatever gear you want and the hub motor does its thing independently. With mid drive, the motor is tied to your cadence so it is very important to take note on what cadence does the motor operates best so you can keep your cadence on that sweet spot. And that's where the cadence meter makes more sense (like the tachometer of your car engine).

It is like comparing to an old Mustang with big block V8 and with a three speed transmission vs an Audi A4 with smaller engine and a seven speed transmission to keep it in the optimum gear ratio for the engine to be humming in the most efficient RPM.

An electric bike is slightly different because there are 2 engines, the electric motor and your leg muscles.

 

[ROJA]

Thanks!

 

[Over50]

... Torque is the raw force. Power is the summation of that force over a period of time...Torque is part and parcel for the calculation of power but it is an important factor in starting off the line and in climbing...

This was a very helpful explanation for me. So if I have a commute that is relatively flat (a few minor hills) but has a lot of start/stop city riding, I should look at torque moreso than overall power and top speed? I would say the commute I am buying a bike for has a few open runs where I could hit higher speeds but is moreso (maybe 2/3rds short runs with lots of start/stop). So acceleration from a stop would be more important for maintaining an average target speed of 18mph than would be overall power and top speed? My target for a 15-17 mile 1 way commute (variable dependent on exact route) is 1 hour or slightly less. This would put me only 15 minutes under my normal commute time by car which generally runs 45 minutes.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I concur with the thoughts above. For s-pedelecs, suspension fork should be an option.

On my recent ride, I rode on the Interstates for ~2500 miles. Most of the shoulders were ok but rumble strips are the worst.
My shoulders and elbows took a beating of enormous proportion just because of the constant fatigue and hammering. I had carbon fork AND carbon handlebar. But for long distances, what is most comfortable = dropbars w/aerobars.
Now, I have a new found respect for aerobars and road biking geometry. I can't imagine riding anything more than 40 miles without them. I constantly hankered for them and it totally changed the way I think of long distance touring setup. My next bike will have dropbars and aerobars.

For riding in the city (20-30 mile commute) certainly demands a suspension fork but with a light bike Haibike Super race it's possible to manage w/o them.
If you're going over ~23mph, suspension fork is a must. Anybody who thinks otherwise is just bluffing...
I thought San Fran was a very bike friendly city but the roads are as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine riding on those streets without a suspension. if you're on a roadbike that's a different story but with increased rolling mass of E-bikes, small bumps and imperfections gets amplified by the time it reaches our shoulders.

 

[Bike_On]

I concur with the thoughts above. For s-pedelecs, suspension fork should be an option.

On my recent ride, I rode on the Interstates for ~2500 miles. Most of the shoulders were ok but rumble strips are the worst.
My shoulders and elbows took a beating of enormous proportion just because of the constant fatigue and hammering. I had carbon fork AND carbon handlebar. But for long distances, what is most comfortable = dropbars w/aerobars.
Now, I have a new found respect for aerobars and road biking geometry. I can't imagine riding anything more than 40 miles without them. I constantly hankered for them and it totally changed the way I think of long distance touring setup. My next bike will have dropbars and aerobars.

For riding in the city (20-30 mile commute) certainly demands a suspension fork but with a light bike Haibike Super race it's possible to manage w/o them.
If you're going over ~23mph, suspension fork is a must. Anybody who thinks otherwise is just bluffing...
I thought San Fran was a very bike friendly city but the roads are as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine riding on those streets without a suspension. if you're on a roadbike that's a different story but with increased rolling mass of E-bikes, small bumps and imperfections gets amplified by the time it reaches our shoulders.

Ravi,

I am glad you had some carbon dampening, wow.

You can add aero bars to a flat bar as well. I did that with my Optibike, and wire din a throttle. It was great to ride on the elbows.

Road bike curved drop bars offer a better grip of the hood brakes and have less stress on wrists. But like you said, anything over 23 mph starts to get amplified and felt, which is why I ended the ddhub road ebike. Cruising at 28-30mph is ok on smooth stuff, but that cant be supported 100%.

Thanks for your experience and insight.

 

[Bike_On]

PS. Fork with lockout allows for an on-the-fly active suspension when needed, and a stiff fork when road is ok. If you bike is under 50lbs, then maybe going all stiff is fine up to 25mph. If over 50lbs and up, with bigger battery and heavy ddhub, why not a couple extra lbs for a nice air fork ?

 

[Bike_On]

See pics with aeros here:
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/optibike-1100r-commuting-data-summer-2012.480/

I had to *cut* the bars and add a wooden dowel extender. It made the aeros a tad wider and more comfortable, yet kept my head down and shoulders relaxed, with a good power stroke position.

 

[Tony Daly]

The best suspension is the tires and carbon fork. The use of fat and large capacity Super Moto tires as well as carbon forks so as to address road buzz address any concerns in relation to suspension on average roads. This set up will be good enough for on road and normal commuter use. Off raid capacity will be limited but this is a dedicated and narrowly focused commuter bike. I am heavy on a heavy loaded Haibike and I generally lock the front suspension using much narrower tires.

 

[ralph cramden]

Trek has good bikes and well supported. However the weight is not the best considering the price tag. The Super Commuter 8+, which is more expensive, is listed at 52 lbs. They don't list the weight specification for the 7+ (too embarrassing?). Under the Weight section they just say the combined weight of rider and bike cannot be over 300lbs. People, even knowledgable people, will try to tell you weight does not matter. When you are stuck in a rural area with big hills and a discharged battery, you will find out how much weight matters.

I'm in my third year of electric bike ownership. After the second year I had to buy a new motor directly on Alibaba, because Prodecotech stopped supporting my model. However the new motor (Keyde) is very good. I also bought a new battery - 10.5Ah. I am doing a mileage test now, currently have 86.57 miles on a single charge. This is with some steep hills but not a lot. I am carrying a spare battery, about 6.5 lbs. I am carrying one pannier, and Serfas puck lock. Using the lowest assist setting, 1 out of 5.

I think a suspension fork is essential for long trips. I rode it from Maryland to Northern New York, about 380 miles, doing 50 miles a day. The fork is good because I have aero bars. They are dangerous enough but without suspension would be suicidal. I needed the aero bars because the bike has a straight handlebar. Who can stay in one riding position for 50 miles? My bike is lighter than the Trek models, has a small rear hub motor which is friction drive. Very smooth and no cogging when not powered. If you are big you might want a Trek. But otherwise for the price you can get a lighter bike.

 

[Velome]

Trek has good bikes and well supported. However the weight is not the best considering the price tag. The Super Commuter 8+, which is more expensive, is listed at 52 lbs. They don't list the weight specification for the 7+ (too embarrassing?). Under the Weight section they just say the combined weight of rider and bike cannot be over 300lbs. People, even knowledgable people, will try to tell you weight does not matter. When you are stuck in a rural area with big hills and a discharged battery, you will find out how much weight matters.

I'm in my third year of electric bike ownership. After the second year I had to buy a new motor directly on Alibaba, because Prodecotech stopped supporting my model. However the new motor (Keyde) is very good. I also bought a new battery - 10.5Ah. I am doing a mileage test now, currently have 86.57 miles on a single charge. This is with some steep hills but not a lot. I am carrying a spare battery, about 6.5 lbs. I am carrying one pannier, and Serfas puck lock. Using the lowest assist setting, 1 out of 5.

I think a suspension fork is essential for long trips. I rode it from Maryland to Northern New York, about 380 miles, doing 50 miles a day. The fork is good because I have aero bars. They are dangerous enough but without suspension would be suicidal. I needed the aero bars because the bike has a straight handlebar. Who can stay in one riding position for 50 miles? My bike is lighter than the Trek models, has a small rear hub motor which is friction drive. Very smooth and no cogging when not powered. If you are big you might want a Trek. But otherwise for the price you can get a lighter bike.

I purchased an XM700+ last year and they did list the weight then of 46.3 lbs for 55 cm size.