Gionnirocket
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I thought so too... But in the end we just went with The Rolling Stones.
Total e-bike ban after a fatality in Key Biscayne, FLA
- Thread starter Djangodog
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Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
- Region
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- Carlsbad, CA
Wouldn't part with my throttle, and I always pedal with effort. To me, it's a versatile riding tool and safety feature having little to do with getting out of pedaling.
HOWEVER, throttles do attract and enable irresponsible riders, many of whom wouldn't be on a bike if they had to pedal. And let's not forget that simple cadence-sensing ebikes do the same by enabling ghost-pedaling.
Public safety officials can't ignore the explosion of irresponsible ebike riders in coastal San Diego County in recent years. Nor should they. School kids and tourists are the main culprits, and drivers, pedestrians, and other cyclists are all at risk.
My LBS owner, who sells ebikes exclusively, sees no chance of an ebike ban here. Way too many of them in service. And they do further a long-standing goal of SANDAG (the San Diego Association of Governents) — namely, to get cars off our roads. (Not just talk: SANDAG's spent billions on bike infrastructure.)
Instead, he thinks they'll eventually ban throttles on new ebikes and rentals, because (a) no other single measure would do more to reduce the number of irresponsible cyclists, and (b) the political fallout would be much less. As much as I'd hate to see that happen, he's got a point.
HOWEVER, throttles do attract and enable irresponsible riders, many of whom wouldn't be on a bike if they had to pedal. And let's not forget that simple cadence-sensing ebikes do the same by enabling ghost-pedaling.
Public safety officials can't ignore the explosion of irresponsible ebike riders in coastal San Diego County in recent years. Nor should they. School kids and tourists are the main culprits, and drivers, pedestrians, and other cyclists are all at risk.
My LBS owner, who sells ebikes exclusively, sees no chance of an ebike ban here. Way too many of them in service. And they do further a long-standing goal of SANDAG (the San Diego Association of Governents) — namely, to get cars off our roads. (Not just talk: SANDAG's spent billions on bike infrastructure.)
Instead, he thinks they'll eventually ban throttles on new ebikes and rentals, because (a) no other single measure would do more to reduce the number of irresponsible cyclists, and (b) the political fallout would be much less. As much as I'd hate to see that happen, he's got a point.
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why?
Member
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- USA
She may not have died, but being an elderly quadriplegic could be worse than dying (IMO).
Even if that LBS owner, who sell ebikes, knew that the parents were buying a 28mph speedster for their 12yr old son he still might sell it to them even though he'd never buy one for his own 12yr old son.
I don't understand why mopeds can't be treated as mopeds. At least in the state of Washington there are 3 classes of ebikes. Super 73 types don't appear to fit any of the 3 classes as it is capable of 28+mph and has a throttle. Maybe other states have different definitions but it seems that here a bike like the Super 73, or any ebike capable of assist over 20mph with a throttle would be classified as a moped, not an ebike, or capable of assist >28mph even without having a throttle. Impound a few bikes with riders over 20mph without pedaling or >28mph assist bikes even with pedaling. regardless if on road or MUP/trail and the message might get through.
The electric-assisted bicycle must meet the requirements of one of the following three classifications:
E-bike Class 1
A bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and that ceases to assist when the bicycle reaches 20 mph.
E-bike Class 2
A bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches a speed of 20 mph.
E-bike Class 3
A bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and ceases to assist when the bicycle reaches a top speed of 28 mph and is equipped with a
speedometer.
The electric-assisted bicycle must meet the requirements of one of the following three classifications:
E-bike Class 1
A bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and that ceases to assist when the bicycle reaches 20 mph.
E-bike Class 2
A bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches a speed of 20 mph.
E-bike Class 3
A bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and ceases to assist when the bicycle reaches a top speed of 28 mph and is equipped with a
speedometer.
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Typical knee jerk emotional reaction what are this places gun laws and how many road deaths also?? I would expect this kin of reaction here in Australia.
Key Biscayne bans e-bikes and scooters - Key Biscayne Independent
This story has been updated withkbindependent.org
A 12 year old boy on an e-bike collided with a woman on a bicycle. Two days later, there is a total ban there.
Please read the entire article before commenting. It sounds to me like they are throwing the baby with the bath water.
It’s tragic that someone died, but they should investigate it further and make some logical rules, like age and class appropriate rules.
Just placing blame doesn't address the problem and is more of a "typical knee jerk emotional response" than what the local authority, with public input, chose to do. Given the situation, which doesn't sound like an isolated situational risk in what should have been a safe pedestrian environment, total ban of ebikes might be the most reasonable response. It allows for immediate and easily enforceable solution which can be reevaluated over time to determine if acceptable exceptions can or should be made. Just a quick look in the DIY section reveals someone extolling their 35mph throttle capable bike. That is even beyond the designation for a moped and fits in the realm of a e-motorcycle. Who, in their right mind, would approve of a motorcycle being allowed to ride on MUPs or even on the road lacking DOT required equipment, registration and insurance?
Gionnirocket
Well-Known Unidentified Member
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I agree.. but at her age her parents have most likely already passed.
And besides, she should have known by now to wear a helmet as an experienced cyclist.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
IMO the takeaway for the broader ebike community is that access is tenuous and it doesn't take as much as some people think to put it at risk. This is a small community with preexisting opposition, but the underlying dynamics (kids/teens riding "ebikes" that are basically motorcycles on public infrastructure) exists all over the country. You can't really expect a 12 year old to not do stupid s*it. 12 year old doing 12 year old things on a throttled emoto on paths with other users is a recipe for an eventual accident, and unfortunately the person who was hit passed away in this case.
I do think the underlying issue with selling ebikes as "exactly the same as a bike" is parents feel ok buying them for young kids. Some Super 73 models can get into the 30s in de-restricted mode, which is quite fast for a reasonably experienced cyclist. Its completely irresponsible to hand 99.9% of 12 year olds a vehicle like that and turn them loose on public infrastructure IMO, but its increasingly common.
Also, people acting like the victim is somehow to blame for not wearing a helmet... thats a really gross look. We should be better than that.
I do think the underlying issue with selling ebikes as "exactly the same as a bike" is parents feel ok buying them for young kids. Some Super 73 models can get into the 30s in de-restricted mode, which is quite fast for a reasonably experienced cyclist. Its completely irresponsible to hand 99.9% of 12 year olds a vehicle like that and turn them loose on public infrastructure IMO, but its increasingly common.
Also, people acting like the victim is somehow to blame for not wearing a helmet... thats a really gross look. We should be better than that.
Jeremy McCreary
Bought it anyway
- Region
- USA
- City
- Carlsbad, CA
In the 1990s, California launched a very effective media blitz against second-hand smoke. This should be the next one.
Kids on ebikes are everywhere in my area (coastal north San Diego County). The vast majority are on RadRunners and the like, but Super73s are also common. Also way too many Surrons.
Very clear to anyone with working eyes that few of these kids know or follow the applicable laws, have respect for others on their routes, or have a realistic understanding of gravity, momemtum, and the limits of adhesion. Not surprisingly, the boys are much worse than the girls on this score.
Parents have strong incentives not to see all that. Many kids here get to school and activities on ebikes, and that's driving that their parents no longer need to do. Quite sure none of them are nostalgic for school pickup and drop-off lines.
I'm all for replacing car miles with ebike miles whenever possible, but it needs to be done responsibly. And for whatever reason, local parents have not been effective in turning their kids into responsible ebike riders.
In 2023, our state assemblyperson introduced AB530 — a bill requiring, among other things, that kids without a driver's license get a certificate of ebike training. Not a perfect bill, but a good start that I fully supported. Unfortunately, it failed, but she's trying again with AB2234.
Hope it succeeds, cuz doing nothing is no longer an option.
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scottsdalecommuter
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Sad situation for all involved. As a parent of an almost 12 year old boy, I can say I'm not sure I would trust him on either of my ebikes, a Rad Mission or an Aventon Pace 500. Just too much power and a little too much bike to handle. There are days I'm riding and I still feel like it's more power than I need, I never go over PAS 3 of 5 on the roads. That being said, he rides his Trek mountain bike to and from school everyday and I worry a whole lot more about a car hitting him than I do him hitting anyone else. Hope they can come to a good solution for everyone in this town in Florida.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I completely agree, but its definitely a difficult line to toe. The term "ebike" encompasses a pretty wide range of capabilities these days, from class 1 city bikes up to things that toe the emoto line (or drive over the line at 45mph). The scrambler style bikes like the Super 73s are definitely designed to be ridden throttle only (the pedaling position is awful; in pedal assist only mode I imagine the pedals are basically throttles and the motor does almost all the work). They can also reach pretty high speeds, especially the higher end ones. A dude down the street from me has one and I see him zipping around town all the time. Hes going 30+mph and I've never seen him turn the pedals even half a revolution. He seems responsible enough (I've never seen him do anything dangerous aside from speed) but handing a bike like that to a kid just seems like a really obvious recipe for disaster, especially when you know they are doing to ride on sidewalks and paths in a pedestrian heavy area.
We, as ebike advocates, like to pretend that ebikes are exactly the same as regular bikes. But they aren't. Even the lowest power class 1 is going to be more capable of speed than a pedal only bike. There probably needs to be some education towards parents that, no, buying a Super 73 for your 12 year old is not the same as getting them a Huffy.
Taylor57
Well-Known Member
I will say when I was 14 I got a brand new Yamaha mini enduro 60 for Xmas and rode the heck out of it. Once in awhile on the street, but mostly off road. We always knew we were breaking the law when we rode on the street and therefore took the back roads when we could. But sometimes we needed to get on the asphalt. I still remember racing a Sheriff to my cut off for home and screaming into my driveway sideways while the LEO raced by on our street. Times were different in small town USA in 1971... Oh, to be 14 again...
Gionnirocket
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From everything I'm reading... We need to ban parents
Taylor57
Well-Known Member
My parents are so banned!!From everything I'm reading... We need to ban parents
why?
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- USA
You can easily imagine a spoiled 12yr old boy's relentless manipulating of his parent's ... just one of many examples - "The other boys make fun of me when i ride my ugly Huffy to school."
Is being a responsible parent today any easier compared to 70+ years ago. My farming parents bought their oldest (spoiled) son a beautiful used 1955 Crown Victoria for his very first car. It only took a few weeks before he blew the V8 engine (drag racing on country road). A farming neighbor mounted a V8 engine in a motorcycle frame and almost killed himself.
Motor racing now begins at age 12 ... IF the parents can afford to buy a $3000 Super73 for their spoiled son ...
How could a 12yr spoiled son not resist racing it around town?
Is being a responsible parent today any easier compared to 70+ years ago. My farming parents bought their oldest (spoiled) son a beautiful used 1955 Crown Victoria for his very first car. It only took a few weeks before he blew the V8 engine (drag racing on country road). A farming neighbor mounted a V8 engine in a motorcycle frame and almost killed himself.
Motor racing now begins at age 12 ... IF the parents can afford to buy a $3000 Super73 for their spoiled son ...
How could a 12yr spoiled son not resist racing it around town?
You may/ may not be quoting me either way what’s the difference we all have access to fast cars/motorbikes etc except they have certain ‘tests’ one must pass before being given the privilege to use them on the road. Not an apples to apples but banning everything and then expecting relaxations to that ban is a bit of rose coloured glasses. When AU had its gun laws changed and certain types of firearms were ’banned’ its a joke as you can still buy them with the right type of licence though usually only issued to primary producers or culling projects.
J.R.
Erstwhile
- Region
- USA
I shared many times how the bans in my county were enacted. Regulating ebikes is a very difficult thing to do and it's getting harder with all the motorbikes being imported by sellers that call the machines ebikes. Banning is seen by many communities as the only option they have, given the wide variety of machines on sale now. We were successful in overturning the bans, but since the pandemic the trails and paths have been flooded with bikes that are illegal. I think more bans are coming.
Thank you for mentioning the victim in this. She was an avid cyclist; on this ride she was cruising in her neighborhood, the 12 year old hit her, according to reports I read.
Some published photos from the story:
Victim: Megan, 66
e-bikes at Mast Academy, local school.
Over the past 4 days I've seen many news reports on YouTube and most of the bikes shown in town were never pedaled. As has been noted the ban is temporary, and many reports state a permanent ban is unlikely. Stricter regulations are likely. Maybe the EU got it mostly right. Never thought I'd say that.
PsychoBilly
Member
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- USA
Judging by the E-Bikes in the pic, those kids come from well to do parents who most likely give them everything they want.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
For sure. Ebikes are extreme newcomers to the access and advocacy scene, but some of us act like we have an inalienable right to be anywhere we want, riding whatever we want, and any restrictions on those are sinister gubmint overreach. Its very, very different than the attitude I'm used to in traditional cycling advocacy, where people know that every piece of infrastructure built or mile of trail opened represents years (sometimes decades) of effort, and that work could be undone if circumstances shift.
The main thing I'd really like to see is a little more self awareness about these issues from the broader ebike community. Like, even in this thread there were people rushing to blame the victim instead of acknowledge any wrongdoing on the ebike riders part or consider that maybe a regulatory regime that doesn't care if 12 year olds are riding bikes that go that fast may cause problems.
Like, access to the local MUP seems pretty solid at the moment, but there are definitely people who don't want ebikes there, and its not hard to envision a scenario where someone riding a fast bike hits and injures/kills someone completely changing that. And thats not outside the realm of possibility.
