Torque numbers and top speed have very little to do with one another
Today was supposed to be new Creo announcement day!
- Thread starter kattanm
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AvalancheRun
Well-Known Member
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- USA
True, I just mean the 1.2 motor as a whole. It has 33% more power.
I didn't intend to sound flip.....but you asked a question for which the only answers are entirely subjective.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
Just to clarify the matters: The motor max power and the max torque are interrelated if the motor max rpm is the same for the motors under comparison. The e-bike manufacturers with their main target in Europe are reluctant to specify the maximum motor power as they pretend their motors are all 250 W nominal. In a rare case, Specialized has specified the maximum mechanical power of the SL 1.1 motor as 240 W, making the Specialized Creo eligible for the E-Giro, the Italian e-bike road race. The SL 1.2 would be disqualified there!
If you look at the latest Specialized full power motors, these are specified as 50, 70, and 90 Nm. We know the 2.2 motor has the peak mechanical power of 565 W. We can easily say the 2.2 motor is 80% more powerful than the 2.0E (estimated max power 310 W) or 28% more powerful than the 2.0 (estimated max power of 440 W). If my calculations are correct.
Yes, the SL 1.2 motor is more powerful than the 1.1. Think of the battery consumption. The SL 1.1 motor starts just "quaffing" from the battery above the 65/65% assistance. I am scared to think how battery hungry the 1.2 (320 W peak mechanical motor power) would be.
If you look at the latest Specialized full power motors, these are specified as 50, 70, and 90 Nm. We know the 2.2 motor has the peak mechanical power of 565 W. We can easily say the 2.2 motor is 80% more powerful than the 2.0E (estimated max power 310 W) or 28% more powerful than the 2.0 (estimated max power of 440 W). If my calculations are correct.
Yes, the SL 1.2 motor is more powerful than the 1.1. Think of the battery consumption. The SL 1.1 motor starts just "quaffing" from the battery above the 65/65% assistance. I am scared to think how battery hungry the 1.2 (320 W peak mechanical motor power) would be.
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Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
With the motor mostly off, yes
The road version of Creo 1.1 was not selling well in Europe because of the 25 km/h speed restrictor. The SL 1.2 will not be admitted to the E-Giro e-bike road race because of the excessive max motor power. The gravel version should sell in Europe, and that is a big market. North America is a gravel road domain, so the Creo 2 should sell well there, too.
No-one really knows whether the Fazua is a good and reliable motor yet. Actually, Fazua has dumped their older motor, leaving the old customers with nothing. Would not happen to the brand such as Specialized that actually owns the Mahle motor.
It would be more interesting what servicing and warranty options Santa Cruz could offer in North America and worldwide... The same Creo 2 has appeared at Specialized website worldwide (at least North America and Europe). Can Santa Cruz do the same? People, you better think before you spend your big bucks on an e-bike from a relatively small manufacture
Can anyone still recollect the Betamax vs. VHS? The Betamax was a better system, yet... Anything good in road and gravel cycling is darn expensive. Get used to itI don't exactly understand why bicycles are so expensive, but because they can replace 95% of my driving while having more fun that I ever had in a car, I have chosen to accept it.
For example, the Specialized Diverge Expert is only a tad less expensive than the Creo 2, and the Diverge is only a pedal bike!
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Dazmanturbo
Well-Known Member
Been looking at weight and how much can be saved by swapping to road set up. Standard weight on 56 is 14.47kg on Carbon comp. By changing tyres, wheels, remove dropper, changing cassette I reckon this will drop over 1.7kg out of the bike. Tempted as I have all this stuff already on my current Carbon Comp. Wheels won't fit, but got a set of Zipps on Roubaix the will.
Where did it say Fazua was dropping the older Ride 50? I haven't seen that. It's still on bikes including new models like the new Cairn Rambler & E adventure models out this year;With the motor mostly off, yes
The road version of Creo 1.1 was not selling well in Europe because of the 25 km/h speed restrictor. The SL 1.2 will not be admitted to the E-Giro e-bike road race because of the excessive max motor power. The gravel version should sell in Europe, and that is a big market. North America is a gravel road domain, so the Creo 2 should sell well there, too.
No-one really knows whether the Fazua is a good and reliable motor yet. Actually, Fazua has dumped their older motor, leaving the old customers with nothing. Would not happen to the brand such as Specialized that actually owns the Mahle motor.
It would be more interesting what servicing and warranty options Santa Cruz could offer in North America and worldwide... The same Creo 2 has appeared at Specialized website worldwide (at least North America and Europe). Can Santa Cruz do the same? People, you better think before you spend your big bucks on an e-bike from a relatively small manufacture
Anything good in road and gravel cycling is darn expensive. Get used to it
Cairn E-Adventure Rambler
The Cairn E-Adventure Rambler is an all-around gravel beast, but with versatility that the previous version didn’t offer. The Rambler - which is the most recent version of Cairn's popular e-gravel bike, the E-Adventure 1.0 - comes with upgraded frame geometry, a much sleeker look, and, in this...
Like with the new SL1.2 motor most new bikes are going for the Fazua 60 but I haven't seen any sign they are 'dumping' the old motor no more then Specialized is dumping the SL1.1. The question also isn't reliability, most e bike motors have failures, just look at the emtb boards for multiple SL1.1 failures on SL levos & kenevos. I've had 2 replacement motors on my Vado SL so far in 3 years (hills & mountains are tough on the little motor!) so no the question is customer service and it looks like that was not treated as well as Specialized, especially with big companies like Trek chopping and changing between motor manufacturers often leaving the customer unsure whether to go to bike manufacturer or motor manufacturer which is terrible service.
Is the 'E-Giro' really going to be a factor for people buying an e road bike?! I've only heard about it once, on GCN's coverage of the 23 Giro where it was treated as a joke race. I doubt if most people buying road bikes or e road bikes are following e bike road racing, it hardly exists. No it's more like Specialized are following the huge trend in gravel bikes and seeing that a lot of customers are using their gravel bikes for both on and off the road, a more 'do it all' bike. My sister who has ridden huge milage on her road bike over the years - and only gave in and bought 28mm tyres this summer after years on 25mm! Even she's now thinking of getting a gravel bike. For her, as she also climbs mountains and does hill walking all over Europe, the idea of off road bike packing with her friends has an appeal and I think once she gets a gravel bike, the older road bike won't get much use.
kevin.bleakley
New Member
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- Europe
Questions from a noob: (i) Will these bikes eventually trickle down to aluminium versions with a lower price, and if so, is there any past history from Specialized as to what type of time frame we could imagine the wait to be? (ii) It seems like this new bike comes with 29 inch tyres; is this actually spelled-out somewhere in the specs? I may be blind...
Dazmanturbo
Well-Known Member
Yea, 29er and 700c are the same size. The 29ers are more a MTB term. The alu frame will be a basic spec similar to Carbon comp, but like cheaper part to get the price pint down. Same motor though
Frame and wheel sizing can be confusing. I think it goes back to the fact that road bikes originated in Europe so you have metric and wheel sizes 700c 650b or for tyres 700 x 38 etc and frame sizes like 54 and 56 etc and mountain biking began in the US so measurements are in imperial inches 26er 29er etc or 29 x 2.2 and so on. But they frequently match so a 650b wheel size is 27.5, 700c is 29.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
All wheels on Creo 2 are 622 mm internal rim diameter (ETRTO standard), and all are "700c" in the French naming convention. 28 or 29" are the same 622 mm ETRTO rims but 28" U.S. name is for narrow tyres and 29" is for wider ones.
A lot of confusion. The ETRTO makes the sizes unambiguous, so the Creo 2 tyres are simply 47-622 mm
kevin.bleakley
New Member
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- Europe
Thanks for all the informative replies!
Dazmanturbo
Well-Known Member
The Creo 2 using spacing 12x100mm on form and 12x142 on rear, which is same standard road, so yes they should fit. I have a set of Zipps of the same size I ma lining up for my Creo 2
AvalancheRun
Well-Known Member
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- USA
That's fair! Anecdotal is fine too. I *think* Stefan in another post said 20-22 mph was a comfortable top cruise speed for him on his Vado SL.
On our heavy Bosch bikes my wife and I cruise comfortably (e.g. hours) at the 18.5 mph limit putting out only ~60 watts of our own power.
I'm in my 30s and fit, can sustain 150-200 watts or so without much fuss.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Not
I said the 20-22 mph was the maximum attainable speed for me under normal riding conditions, SL Turbo. If my Vado SL were unrestricted, the practical cruising speed would be around 25 km/h in low assistance modes. Bear in mind, my long term average leg power is around 80 W, although I try to stay at 100 W, and can muster far more in a peak.One of the speed limiting factors for Vado SL is the non-aero riding position.
I can tell you this: I am in my early 50's and am relatively fit for my age....but I am not a roadie or fitness junkie by any stretch of the imagination. I occasionally ride with a friend who is in his late 70's and he rides a Vado 5.0 IGH. He has it set up to require very little pedal power and he just ZIPS along on that thing. I leave my motor off....occasionally go to ECO.....or a bit of SPORT for long inclines if necessary....typically pedaling 80-90 cadence and getting a good 'work-out'.....all the while my buddy is whistling along at about 40-50rpm's and zipping around me. Frankly I've never bothered much to look at my speeds but often see my average speed at the end of a 20+/- ride is about 15mph.
My point is that my Vado SL rides are vastly different when compared to my friend's Vado 5.0 IGH rides.....and it is MUCH easier for him to effortlessly maintain high(er) speeds.
WildPaul
Active Member
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- USA
Which is why I keep coming back to my Vado 5 IGH again and again despite attempts to switch to a Vado SL. I just LOVE speed and the full power Vado lets me easily ride in the 20-28mph range as often as I feel like it, modulating how much of a workout I get based on assistance level choice. The SL on the other hand forces me to choose: workout to go fast, or go slow instead.
I’d guess that as awesome as the new Creo 2 looks, it’s probably the same inherent trade off (no free lunch on a super lightweight e-bike… yet! Although I AM super curious how the Skitch fairs in this regard.) Also for context, it’s almost impossible for me to go back to manual shifting after riding a properly calibrated enviolo automatiq. To each their own, but for me it completely transforms the riding experience into something FAR more enjoyable and carefree.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
It is good to own two very different e-bikes. My other e-bike is the full power Vado 6.0. I love its high speed, less effort and long range (ensured by big spare batteries). However, the big Vado is heavy and does not handle well in rough terrain. Road and no need to carry it? Fantastic!
My Vado SL is a different kind of beast. The light weight is making it suitable to be lifted and carried whenever necessary. My modified version handles the rough terrain well. It gives me a good workout at the cost of speed (which I need less and less). Riding a Vado SL at gradually reduced assistance helps me become ready to ride lightweight pedal bikes again. The most importantly, Vado SL really contributes to my health.
I'm a practical person. A drop bar Creo is not for me. There is nothing a flat bar Skitch could give me except even more light weight. Well, if I wanted a really light weight, I would buy me a 10 kg pedal bike
I'm afraid even the Skitch is not that lightweight
IGH is one of the heaviest bike components. The suspension is the other such a thing.
I understand and the full power IGH bike is cool. There are occasions that I may even prefer it. For the most part I prefer the pedaling and shifting and nimbleness of the SL..... And I think the SL has plenty of power for my uses as an assistant to my legs.
I very rarely go for a joy ride with the intent of having the bike lead me under its power. I did this tonight...... And I must say..... The SL is more than capable and one hell of a lot of fun.
In this sense, I really prefer the SL version because it allows me to do two things that I enjoy. The full power bike is just too heavy for me to tool around on under my own power.
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