Thinking strongly about ordering the CCX
- Thread starter SirJonathan
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SirJonathan
Active Member
This is the analogy that first came to mind when I read the posts that the bikes were illegal.
Andy_in_CA
Active Member
I have a CCS which I commute 4-5 days a week. I love it. But the speed is a plus and minus for me. The plus is i can almost keep up with traffic, and blow by class 2 bikes pretty easily on my swift commute to work.
The minus is the speed as far as a safety concern for my body. I only wear long sleeves and pants, and full gloves. Also recently I got a full helmet the TLD Stealth helmet and I love it.
The minus is the speed as far as a safety concern for my body. I only wear long sleeves and pants, and full gloves. Also recently I got a full helmet the TLD Stealth helmet and I love it.
SirJonathan
Active Member
Wow! That's a $300 full-face helmet. I've cycled for years with $80 Giro helmets. Often I can (could) average 20+ mph with downhills over 40mph+. Wearing kit attire. My helmet did save me when hit by a car as it hit the curb - and HARD. My first thought was "I'd be dead without this thing" and still probably was concussed. I never ride without it. I can see falling into a false sense of security riding along at 25mph on the road. To hit that speed on my road bike I would need a slight downhill, tailwind and be spinning my legs off in top gear and I would be well aware that I was really moving.
jom
Member
Mike, you have a good point -many good points indeed. In defense of Juiced Bikes and other vendors... I wonder why the law does not establish what is the maximum speed for the bikes in a particular bike path, street or lane, rather than specifying how much power the bike delivers, or the maximum speed it can attain.
The laws for cars allow for 500 HP motors, or even more, and some are spec'd above 200 mph, and nobody seems concerned with that. Some non-e-bikers can sprint at much higher speeds than 28 mph, and surely achieve higher speeds when biking downhill. In a steep climb, a trained biker could deliver up to 500 watts. Why doesn't the law limit the power of cars? Why doesn't the law limit the speed of non-e-bikers?
Limiting power of e-bikes very likely came from the minds of bureocrats, but... power in a bike can be used to deliver more speed, but if my purpose is to accelerate quickly, a limit on power, reduces the reaction time, specially if I am a very heavy person, or have some lesser capacity, like I have. When traversing a ravine or hollow with steep inclines, a Europen spec'ed bike may not make it.
I am not against your points of view, specially taking into account the existing laws, but shouldn't we pay more attention to the usage of the bike versus the specs? Specifying a bike motor power of 750 watts or more, or a max. speed of 50 mph, can be a sales gimmick, but there is no obligation to use that power or speed in illegal ways. Let's say that Juiced Bikes and others may be using speed and power specs as a guimmick, I wonder how many Mustangs or Ferraris could be sold if they were factory-limited to 60, or 100, or 120 mph, or any other speed.
D
Deleted member 4210
Guest
Timpo is correct about what I meant. Also many people are mis-interpreting the laws, and the intent. If the motor can assist a rider to go over 28 mph, and the person some how gets caught by law enforcement that understands the law, they can be cited for breaking the law. Maybe the vehicle itself is not illegal, but it is not really designed to comply with the laws. the Difference may seem subtle, but try it out in a court of law and see what happens. You will likely be very disappointed if you think and judge or jury is going to be on your side if you were doing over 28 mph and caused an accident or injury to someone else. Also, the Juiced CCX can put out 1300 watts, and is not limited to just 750, as explained both in their video's by the CEO (or whatever his title is), of Juiced, and the very fact that a 25 AMP capable controller, coupled with 48 Volts into the right motor, can EASILY exceed 750 watts of output. The properly sized controller, can in fact keep the output below 750 watts, so the rider has no risk of exceeding a certain speed WITH the assistance of the motor. How the motor is nominally rated is irrelevant folks, and maybe you can 'cheat' the laws from a marketing standpoint and get away with it, but again, the problem is going to come as soon as there is a significant accident, and it becomes evident from a legal standpoint in a court of law, that the rider was exceeding the 28 mph, fully assisted by the motor to accomplish the speed over 28 mph (easily 33 mph according to Juiced' own video), and a jury of sympathetic ears, with a capable legal team for the victim, is very likely going to go against the manufacturer, as being willfully producing something easily capable of violating existing law by a user, in terms of how the vehicle is BOTH produced and marketed.
further, why would any executive in good conscious produce a vehicle like this, that anyone can easily exceed the stated Class 3 laws where they exist today ? is this really worth the risk ? Strictly from a business decision standpoint, it doesn't seem to make sense. What any rider does with a bike or ebike is obviously up to them, but why arm them with a product that easily allows existing laws to be broken ? I've seen far less harmless OEM product mistakes result in a bevy of lawsuits that put companies both smaller and way larger than Juiced, quickly out of business. Purely from a selfish consumer standpoint, who would want the company put itself at the risk of going out of business if you bought a product from them. You want it to stay in business so you can get parts and service, etc.
It will not matter to ANY Jury, that the ebike can be 'turned off' or a boost button not be pressed, when the ebike is made to be fully capable of going well beyond the 28 mph. And yes, other firms are selling what they call 'ebikes' that well exceed 28 mph, but they are very specifically stating the vehicles are for off road use, and not for use on public streets, where the laws exist. Frankly if you design something for the higher speeds, then design it to fall under the corresponding laws of a motorized vehicle, let it get certified, and titled, and registered just like mopeds or other vehicles that already do this now. Juiced is not doing that, and hence the potential risk to their firm, and potentially to the riders, or maybe even to a rider's friend who just tries it out once, not knowing any of this, and happens to get in an accident right away, due to the additional power and speed.
Andy_in_CA
Active Member
yeah but it fit my requirements. Peace of mind goes a long way. Plus it was a full face helmet with enough venting to work in the winter (in LA) and in the summer.
I only have one face.
A
D
Deleted member 4210
Guest
The laws actually do specifically talk about both speed and motor wattage output for each of 3 classes. For example, in the states that have adopted the laws, local trails (with people and regular bikes on them) in certain cities and states are being classified now under Class 1, which is max speed of 20 mph, and no throttle, along with not exceeding the federal limit of 750 watts on the motor. Its up to the cities and towns to enforce them locally, and if they haven't specifically state which e-bike Classes (1 to 3) they allow and where. Also the lawmakers have advisors that tell them, that laws do exist for motorized vehicles, that are not e-bikes, and quite simply, the ebike OEM who wishes to produce a bike that exceeds 28 mph, could add the features and attributes that would make it fall under the category that mopeds are in (if they wish to build an 'ebike' capable of speeds over 28 mph, where they simply need to be titled and registered, and licensed. (Fewer people would likely buy them if it has to be licensed etc. and the price will likely be higher - ie. what I meant by 'cutting corners' ) Then that vehicle has to be under all the regulations that are for motorized vehicles. Its actually quite simple to comply. But Juiced is blurring the lines. ('nicer' way of putting it)
Anyone who wishes to argue this point against me, is merely not recognizing that the ebike classifications and laws were put into to place, to SPECIFICALLY AVOID the complications and ramifications of e-bikes being considered a motorized vehicle (under Federal and State definitions of such). The people who put these laws into place wanted ebikes to stay basically classified as bikes, or at least not be subject to the rules and regulations of motorized vehicles. That would be very costly to the OEMS, and consumers if they have to build ebikes to meet those motorized vehicle laws. My point here if its not been obvious, is if ebike OEMS want to blur the lines on these clear laws, then certainly that is ammunition that very well COULD backfire on us all, and cause lawmakers and some (greedy) lawyers (and certain special interest groups) with an agenda (against ebikes or the concept of high speeds), and change the laws regressively, and force the max speed limits lower, or just eliminate Class 3. Do all of you who like Juiced bikes, or all ebikes capable of class 3 speeds up to 28 mph want that outcome ??? I certainly don't. These blurring of the lines, is the kind of stuff that consumers will unwittingly buy, and then unwittingly create the situation that gets this current law (which is rather recent in the US) modified to the detriment of higher speeds that some consumers (not all) may want. the majority then gets 'punished' by the few who abuse the privilege. not cool.
SirJonathan
Active Member
Mike - I understand your points and find validity in them. Back to the car analogy - there are stock cars out there being sold with 600+ hp motors capable of doing 180+ mph at the top end. We've got 0-60 times in the 3 second range. Motorcycles with 150hp. All of these have and will continue to be abused. I see it every day on the freeways of Los Angeles. Some Nissan GTR going 100+ weaving in and out of traffic followed by a GSX-R gaining rapidly at 110 mph. I just shake my head and figure I'll read about them in the paper some day and hope they don't kill anybody else.
The manufacturers aren't blamed for the gross misuse of their products even though they are clearly aimed and marketed based upon their top speed and horsepower. Go to any manufacturer's website and the first thing you'll see on the site is the top speed or horsepower. Porsche leads with this information. Porsche might claim that this is for track use purposes only but I would imagine the majority of Cayenne Turbo S vehicles aren't doing the loop at Willow Springs.
Everything that can be abused will be abused by people that abuse things. I agree that some knucklehead with a stock 750W eBike is eventually going to run over a Mom pushing her stroller on a MUP on a Sunday morning as he livestreams his no-hands ride at 32mph but I don't think it will have the effect on the industry that you are predicting.
I run around 7 miles a day and have for years. I use the same cycle path I ride my bikes on to run every morning. I dread Sunday mornings because the pelotons come through in packs of 15-20 riders screaming ON YOUR LEFT at the top of their lungs at an easy 30mph on one slight downhill stretch. I never know how many of them will pass me and my arm is often brushed and sometimes knocked by their riders.
That MUP has a 15mph limit. My feeling has always been that pelotons belong on the road at those speeds. They use the MUP as a transition to the roads and good luck to you if you are in the way. Two wrongs don't make a right but nothing has ever happened because of them and there are articles every few months about somebody getting hurt.
A single eBike accident probably wouldn't see the local news. That's just my opinion. I appreciate your input. Thanks.
The manufacturers aren't blamed for the gross misuse of their products even though they are clearly aimed and marketed based upon their top speed and horsepower. Go to any manufacturer's website and the first thing you'll see on the site is the top speed or horsepower. Porsche leads with this information. Porsche might claim that this is for track use purposes only but I would imagine the majority of Cayenne Turbo S vehicles aren't doing the loop at Willow Springs.
Everything that can be abused will be abused by people that abuse things. I agree that some knucklehead with a stock 750W eBike is eventually going to run over a Mom pushing her stroller on a MUP on a Sunday morning as he livestreams his no-hands ride at 32mph but I don't think it will have the effect on the industry that you are predicting.
I run around 7 miles a day and have for years. I use the same cycle path I ride my bikes on to run every morning. I dread Sunday mornings because the pelotons come through in packs of 15-20 riders screaming ON YOUR LEFT at the top of their lungs at an easy 30mph on one slight downhill stretch. I never know how many of them will pass me and my arm is often brushed and sometimes knocked by their riders.
That MUP has a 15mph limit. My feeling has always been that pelotons belong on the road at those speeds. They use the MUP as a transition to the roads and good luck to you if you are in the way. Two wrongs don't make a right but nothing has ever happened because of them and there are articles every few months about somebody getting hurt.
A single eBike accident probably wouldn't see the local news. That's just my opinion. I appreciate your input. Thanks.
Mike you stated very clearly that the CCX is illegal. That is completely wrong.
If something is illegal, it is a crime. The production of the CCX, based on its motor and operation falls within the definition of an ebike under California law.
What you might be trying to say is that the CCX may be subject to civil liability as a cross claimant, if someone operated the bicycle in an illegal fashion. But then again, so is every vehicle.
If something is illegal, it is a crime. The production of the CCX, based on its motor and operation falls within the definition of an ebike under California law.
What you might be trying to say is that the CCX may be subject to civil liability as a cross claimant, if someone operated the bicycle in an illegal fashion. But then again, so is every vehicle.
jom
Member
Mike, with the existing laws of most (may be all?) US states, what you are stating is absolutely correct. I agree 100%.
I was arguing against the existing laws, not about your interpretation of them.
I would like to see a "compromise" law, like this:
<<If you ride a bike [whatever the magnitude or type of motor power, electric, atomic, human, diesel, wind, steam, whatever] above the stated limits (let's say 20 or 28 mph) you are required a bike license, rider license, VIN, front, rear, turn lights, mirrors, etc. and should comply with the rider's rules that apply to, for example, motorcycles [whatever those are]>>
To me what is important is the speed allowed in a particular path, not the details of the construction of the bike.
The existing laws are written in terms of max. speed and max. power. How does the police enforce these laws? Do they borrow the bike to test the max. speed? How do they know the wattage? Do they ask for the manufacturer's specs?
I can understand the police may be trained to determine if the bike has a throttle, but max. power, max. speed?
In 2015 several Tour de France bikers were caught using hidden electric motors... and noboby realized until later... what proves not to be an easy task to know manufacturing details.
We could penalize the manufacturers, but not all bikes are manufactured by Juiced or other established companies. I can buy a kit and make my own e-bike. Have the states specified how to certify a self-built bike for compliance?
Why can't I ride my bike at 20 mph in the city, and the same bike at 30 mph in a private property? Isn't it what car drivers do or should do, that is, obey the signs? Makes a lot of sense. Why discriminate and penalize e-bikes?
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
So there are a couple of points relative to safety I'd like to make. As others have mentioned if you are riding on the road then keeping up with traffic affords some degree of safety, as cars are not rapidly overtaking you. This is probably the greatest benefit of the CCS for me. My commute is almost all on roads with unprotected bike lanes. Car speed limits are mostly 30-45 mph on these roads. As a rider, I am responsible for avoiding problems in front of me and regulating speed accordingly. However, I am at the mercy (attention) of cars behind me that are overtaking me to avoid me. The fact that those cars have far more time to notice and avoid me at 30 mph makes me feel much safer then I did on my road bike at 20 mph.
Also, the ability to merge into traffic or taking the lane when avoiding obstacles, or trying to turn left is far easier and safer when your speed is closer to the speed of traffic.
Also, for comparison sake; the highest speed I have reached on my road bike is 55mph, the highest speed on my CCS is 42. It is incumbent on the rider/driver to control the bike/vehicle they are operating safely within the condidtions they are traveling.
Mike probably has a point that some lawyer will eventually try to sue an ebike maker for making a "illegal" ebike, that can go faster than 28mph. They are going to have a tough sell with the jury on that one IMHO. The guy riding the bike is still responsible for its safe operation.
If I had hit someone on my road bike when I was bombing down a canyon road at 55, would anyone really think the bike maker was at fault?
Also, back to the original subject; the CCS felt very stable, safe, and comfortable riding downhill at 42 mph.
Also, the ability to merge into traffic or taking the lane when avoiding obstacles, or trying to turn left is far easier and safer when your speed is closer to the speed of traffic.
Also, for comparison sake; the highest speed I have reached on my road bike is 55mph, the highest speed on my CCS is 42. It is incumbent on the rider/driver to control the bike/vehicle they are operating safely within the condidtions they are traveling.
Mike probably has a point that some lawyer will eventually try to sue an ebike maker for making a "illegal" ebike, that can go faster than 28mph. They are going to have a tough sell with the jury on that one IMHO. The guy riding the bike is still responsible for its safe operation.
If I had hit someone on my road bike when I was bombing down a canyon road at 55, would anyone really think the bike maker was at fault?
Also, back to the original subject; the CCS felt very stable, safe, and comfortable riding downhill at 42 mph.
But there are lots of class 3 e-bikes being sold that peak at more than 750W of power (including the Stromer ST2 for example.) I think the law only cares about the nominal rating of the motor being 750W or less. I do believe that the assist has to cut out at 28mph in order for the e-bike to be class 3 legal. The question is - if you ride the CCX in ‘S’ mode on public roads is it legal? In S mode the assist cuts out at 28mph. It’s only in race model that it keeps assisting above 28mph. Ultimately the police are clueless about e-bikes so it’s not something I would personally worry about. I’ve seen people cruising on electric beach cruisers and fat bikes at 25-30mph without pedaling which is pretty blatantly illegal and the police simply don’t know or don’t care. They’ve got better things to do.
BTW, speed has nothing to do with legality. I can go 30mph on my CC if I pedal really hard in S mode, with a tailwind...The law just says the bike can’t assist above 28mph.
BTW, speed has nothing to do with legality. I can go 30mph on my CC if I pedal really hard in S mode, with a tailwind...The law just says the bike can’t assist above 28mph.
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SirJonathan
Active Member
The concept of bike path policing is almost comical. Here in my city we have people parking in front of fire hydrants all day and single-occupant HOV lane drivers the norm rather than the exception as the Highway Patrol zooms by with more important things to attend to. Going 5mph faster than the limit on a bicycle on a MUP and testing top peak wattage at any given time on a bicycle motor while in the field isn't going to happen. Ever.
bikerjohn
Well-Known Member
-Bottom line here is: "The guy riding the bike is still responsible for its safe operation."So there are a couple of points relative to safety I'd like to make. As others have mentioned if you are riding on the road then keeping up with traffic affords some degree of safety, as cars are not rapidly overtaking you...
Also, for comparison sake; the highest speed I have reached on my road bike is 55mph, the highest speed on my CCS is 42. It is incumbent on the rider/driver to control the bike/vehicle they are operating safely within the conditions they are traveling...
...The guy riding the bike is still responsible for its safe operation.
If I had hit someone on my road bike when I was bombing down a canyon road at 55, would anyone really think the bike maker was at fault?
Also, back to the original subject; the CCS felt very stable, safe, and comfortable riding downhill at 42 mph.
I remember well the day I reached a screaming 45+ mph down hill speed on a country road in South Bristol, NY. That speed was all about gravity and momentum, with my 230+ pound physique on a 30 pound Bianchi Road bike with rim brakes. https://bikejournal.com/blog.asp?rname=bikerjohn&cdate=9/7/2013
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
With a doctorate in the mental health field, I often have the experience of hearing intelligent people discuss mental health issues in ways that make perfect sense and sound very logical ... And are totally, completely, mind-numbingly wrong.
We've got exactly one lawyer chiming in on this thread. Thanks for your input, @Merc. I'm going with what you've said.
As to the rest of the comments: "Huh. Wouldja look at that."
We've got exactly one lawyer chiming in on this thread. Thanks for your input, @Merc. I'm going with what you've said.
As to the rest of the comments: "Huh. Wouldja look at that."
SirJonathan
Active Member
Couldn't agree more strongly!
Feliz
Well-Known Member
Couldn't agree more myself.
I have a bachelors degree in common sense and a masters in BS detection. Sometimes in life 1+1 doesn't always = 2 though. I think if your riding your bike and obeying the laws no one will mess with you. Here on the bike paths speed limits are posted at 10/15mph. The spandex crowd are the ones always violating it and causing problems. What's ironic to me is the liberal crowd wants things to go all green/electric yet they're the ones wanting to limit/ban ebikes. Boulder county is talking about banning them all together on their bike paths. Denver is next. Look at Seattle, Portland and NYC.
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Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
LOL.
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