the Schwalbe Big One / G-One 2.35" 29'er

[Reid]

I’ve heard all of the common arguments in my road cycling days. Even if you believe there is a small aerodynamic penalty (the data isn’t so clear on this question) it’s so small as to be irrelevant on an electric bike. Maybe you aren’t aware that these tires have a very low rolling resistance. Probably 30-40W total savings over the stock tires which is enormous for a pair of bicycle tires. The rolling resistance is lower than all but the very best (and very fragile) tubular skinny race tires which is kind of unreal for a balloon tire.

Take it to an impossible extreme. Two same size but different construction tires. One thick and armored to survive road hazards. The other a membrane of soap film infinitely strong yet virtually without mass or stiffness.


Which tire passes over road irregularities with less loss of energy? Which tire, even though sidewalls deflect under load, converts less kinetic energy to heat?

 

[Chris Hammond]

So I know this is a bit off topic to the widest possible tire discussion, but I got my tubeless conversion kit today. I converted the front wheel first with a great deal of frustration. Thanks Reid for the tip about clipping the manufacturing nibs off the tire bead. In spite of doing this, I couldn't get the stock Kendas to seat on the bead until I pulled out the valve core to push compressed air in more quickly. Unfortunately after that, I had an air leak around the valve stem. This took 2 attempts to remedy, finally success after dipping the valve stem in the tubeless sealant, and tightening down with a washer on the outside of the rim because the stock hole is made for Schrader valves not Presta. It finally seems to be holding air. Overnight test will tell. I will do the rear tire tomorrow, hopefully I learned a few things. At any rate, I will learn tomorrow if the 18 mm offset wrench I have will work to remove the rear wheel and I will finally get to take it off and familiarize myself with the process. I also got a GAADI tube to hopefully eliminate the need to ever remove the rear wheel while riding to fix a flat.
The stock Kenda tires do seem tubeless friendly from a sidewall leak standpoint, as I saw no evidence of sealant coming through there.

 

[Reid]

The intelligence of this forum is natural. You are not here unless you are a forward thinker.

I think the logical extension of the wider-is-better trend is to instead focus on an impossible, absurd and imaginary extension of the principle that at basis is not about bicycle tire width.

Compare three tires. #1 is quite conventional, has thick tread and a 5mm puncture protection strip and thick rubber over its fairly stiff sidewalls. It is a 2" wide tire and we will run it at a mere 30 hypothetical PSI. The second tire is a LiteSkin philosophy real world racing tire. The fabric is of high thread count, relatively fine at 127 threads per inch. The rubber is thin as practically it can be. A strong flashlight played on the sidewalls shows the fabric underneath the rubber, which is exceedingly thin on the sidewalls, only as thick as needed to cover the fabric from naked view in light normal for humans. The tread area is somewhat thicker. But it is not thick in bicycle conventionality. It is skinny road tire thick. It has little buttons that do not help it be thin and less lossy. The thin buttons, when they wear flat eventually on the Normal Contact area on asphalt, will reduce the already low rubber hysteresis. Rubber in flexure is a very lossy material. It does not return kinetic energy as much as we would like to think it does. A bike's tire rubber tread is nowhere near as reflective of energy input into it as a 1965-era SuperBall (yeah,I had more than one then at age 11 and have thought of this rubber-like ideal ever since) or a steel ball bearing, the most elastic of elastic examples, dropped from a height to a hard steel plate to guage its bounce back up percentage. The thinner the tread our tire #2 the less is the the unreturnable kinetic loss of energy converted by rubber to heat. The third tire in our imaginary triumverate is a soap bubble-thin film infinitely strong against volumetric expansion or rupture. It confines a volume of air at 30PSI in the same way as the other two tires.

The third tire has the closest to zero rolling resistance. Let us call it the theoretical ideal. It has no measurable rolling resistance of itself other than the resistance of compression of air conversion to kinetic energy to heat energy of non-periodic vibrations.

Premised: all tires of real world construction convert kinetic energy to heat at a rate commensurate with their substantiality.

I will try someday to take a picture of the Big One/G-One LiteSkin sidewalls under intense light. So you may see how very thin the sidewall rubber is.

Would my tires be as perfect soap bubbles, no matter their width, their rolling resistance in this real world would be the practical zilch of air compression heat conversion of instantaneous aperities, only.

In this real world, however, Schwalbe, despite its penchant for thick, roadroof tires, has nonetheless a cadre of engineers who are like you. Engineers who dream for the pleasure of a bike that seems to nearly pedal itself on level roads in still air.

The ball bearings of a bicycle were perfected as they are today at their basis by the 1870s. The tire philosophies of today were perfected in relatively recent years although these glimmerings were well understood by the creator of the Palmer tire, for example, in the very early 1890s, that less substance is more performing.

The Schwalbe LiteSkin methodology (as today's brand name example) presents a relatively ideal pedaling experience we will not likely ever see in mainstream practice because it is too delicate against the real world of abrasions.

 

[Barry S]

@Reid I don't know what you do for a living, but either JuicedBikes or another ebike company needs to hire you on as their "What if we try this" guy. I suppose the formal term would be Product Developer, but that sounds too stuffy. Thinking outside the box is what leads to great products. Granted, the road to those great products is littered with failures but as the saying goes, "you gotta pay to play." Keep on playing.

 

[Dunbar]

Which tire passes over road irregularities with less loss of energy? Which tire, even though sidewalls deflect under load, converts less kinetic energy to heat?

Yes, if you google Jan Heine’s tests on bicycle tire rolling resistance this is what you’ll find. On real world (I.e., not perfectly smooth) roads the more supple tire will lose less energy.

 

[Asher]

We need Reid here, so that all the companies can copy his ideas . I see him as more of an open source, town crier kind of guy.

I was looking at my friend's Ducati motorcycle. Apparently motorcycle tires are rounded off towards the edges to make turning at high speed easier, so only 30-50% of the tire makes much contact with the road, as evidence by a pronounced fade and dusted appearance in the middle. And that middle was only slightly wider than this tire. If you got a wide rim to flatten out their profile, these might have nearly the contact a motorcycle tire would. Unless my eyes are way off.

It's so true about wide tires and perceived vs actual speed. I was rolling along, glanced at my LCD and saw I was doing 28 mph, and it hardly felt like it. Much like how in my old Lexus land yacht, the difference between 65 and 80 mph on the freeway is imperceptible. You really have to measure and not go by 'feel.'

 

[Reid]

I am struggling to keep the 2.35" tire on the rear and need to do another round of attempting to crush the chainstays with a new and huskier C-clamp.

Or should I just give up and put back on the 2" wide G-One Speed...

None of us welcomes defeat over small challenges.

Speaking of defeat, the controller or display has gone on the fritz.

Pedal I must or else it's de feet.

 

[Reid]

On the positive, side, the front tire is no issue to fit. The front fender can be remounted over a 2.35" tire on the stock rim, with some relief grinding of the fender center clip and crown. It is fit very closely now, with just barely adequate clearance.

(The scraped clip is from the car wipes bike accident of three months ago, bike on side on concrete)

You cannot see it in the image, but the top of the fender underneath the fork crown has been cut away with a Dremel-type tool. The mounting bracket screw hole slot has been brought down almost to the fender plastic so the fender can be raised as high as possible. Barely sufficient clearance results...

Before this work (it was done today), rode in the rain the other night without the fender.

The tire did not splash me much at all, the water spray shielded from hitting me by the downtube being so wide. And water, I think, went into and down the tube and flushed past the controller, like it would on a first production CCS without fenders.

And the next morning I powered up. ERROR 30, the display said, and then went blank moments later.

Too much of a coincidence, a electrical failure after a rainy ride without a front fender.

Inspection of the controller pulled for the first time ever by self for a look-see, revealed that the cables go into its topmost end, all potted in gray silicone RTV. Should be fully water resistant, even though the PVC sheaths cannot bond to RTV silicone rubber sort of sealant.

But one cable's sheath is too short. The five or so fine wires inside are exposed and would conduct liquid water inside the controller, to parts unknown, unless the interior is truly filled with RTV silicone rubber.

Q: is the inside of the controller fully potted? I don't know anything about this stuff.

I have removed the display and controller and at this time of writing and for the past few hours, they are in a barely warm oven, about 130F, to see whether a day or two of gentle heat won't move out any liquid water that might have gotten into either unit.

For sure, though, the problem is not water in a barrel connector. I always reassemble them with a a very nice grease that is non-reactive with plastics and is made for the purpose of preventing water intrusion and lubricating seals.

ADDENDUM: note the middle picture, how very thin the rubber is calendared on the sidewall? A very strong flashlight shines right through those few thousandths thickness of compound and the casing is seen very clearly. These tires ought to be called Schwalbe Speed GHOST (grin) instead of the current market name G-One Speed.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I was looking at my friend's Ducati motorcycle. Apparently motorcycle tires are rounded off towards the edges to make turning at high speed easier, so only 30-50% of the tire makes much contact with the road, as evidence by a pronounced fade and dusted appearance in the middle. And that middle was only slightly wider than this tire. If you got a wide rim to flatten out their profile, these might have nearly the contact a motorcycle tire would. Unless my eyes are way off.

FWIW, the part of a motorcycle tire between where the tread has worn and the rim begins is known as the "chicken strip."

 

[Rooster]

I have the vee rubber 2.8x26 tires on my ocean current and they're like butter. They're called the speedster and have very little rolling resistance.

 

[NeilCruz]

<snip>

I have removed the display and controller and at this time of writing and for the past few hours, they are in a barely warm oven, about 130F, to see whether a day or two of gentle heat won't move out any liquid water that might have gotten into either unit.
<snip>

Why are you putting it in the oven rather than in a watertight sealed bag with fresh white rice (2 cups) or kitty litter (1.5 cup)?

 

[Reid]

Why are you putting it in the oven rather than in a watertight sealed bag with fresh white rice (2 cups) or kitty litter (1.5 cup)?

Hi Neil, for the same reason I would put even a damp sponge (for instance) in the low oven, or reactivate silica gel or rice or flour or any other moisture absorber in an oven at a safe temperature, to dry it out quickly.

 

[Reid]

(...snipped off most of the posting #23 essay whose link I sent to Schwalbe the other day )

(snip)...In this real world, however, Schwalbe, despite its penchant for thick, roadroof tires, has nonetheless a cadre of engineers who are like you. Engineers who dream for the pleasure of a bike that seems to nearly pedal itself on level roads in still air.

The ball bearings of a bicycle were perfected as they are today at their basis by the 1870s. The tire philosophies of today were perfected in relatively recent years although these glimmerings were well understood by the creator of the Palmer tire, for example, in the very early 1890s, that less substance is more performing.

The Schwalbe LiteSkin methodology (as today's brand name example) presents a relatively ideal pedaling experience we will not likely ever see in mainstream practice because it is too delicate against the real world of abrasions.

Andrew Batchelar xxx@schwalbetires.com via smtpcorp.com
5:02 PM (22 hours ago)
to me
Hi Reid,
Thanks for the link! Looks like you’re having fun experimenting with the capabilities of the Big Ones. Those tires are designed to be set up tubeless (the bead-core material is the most important aspect of this), but because they are ‘paper thin’ and have lots of inherent porosity we don’t advertise or market them as specifically tubeless compatible.
You are correct about one interesting thing, so far as our testing shows the Big One/G-One Speed 60-622 Liteskin when setup tubeless has the lowest rolling resistance of any bicycle tire ever made… which is quite a claim to fame (even if I’m the one saying it!).
Another thing to be aware of though, the Snakeskin TLE version of this tire only creates 2 watts more rolling resistance than the Liteskin version… which is actually significantly more impressive because it uses a 67 thread casing (per layer, so is a 201 thread by Vittoria’s way of measuring). The 67 thread casing is in a different universe of Cut protection and air-tightness (the casing strands are almost twice as thick). The casing is less ‘supple’ feeling but I wouldn’t say it feels like a lot of difference.
You have indeed stumbled a bit of a goldmine in terms of rolling speed and ride comfort though, and in fact I use the Big One on 30mm wide (internal) American Classic rims in which the tire measures out to a healthy 64mm in width (about 2.55’’!).

The aerodynamic penalty of these tires IS actually massive. From 20mph-30mph the drag they create well and truly exceeds the benefits of their ridiculously low rolling resistance (at 30mph by a factor of nearly double!)… with that said you have an incredibly smooth ride.

So far as ‘real’ answer about what the fastest possible real world tire is when aerodynamics, and rolling resistance is taken in to account I can’t actually give you one! That is a dynamic relationship between rider weight, power output, rim width, rim aero, frame aero (and the list goes on and one). Suffice to say for a rider that creates a LOT of power and can get in to a very aerodynamic riding position then a narrower tire is faster (because at 30mph the Aerodynamics are a much bigger deal than the rolling resistance… if the tires are ‘pretty good’). For a ‘low-power’ rider who can only sustain 12-15mph a tire like the Big One Liteskin is going to give them an extra 1mph or so!

What’s the Ultimate tire in my opinion for your specific E-Bike use?: The 700x55c Marathon Almotion. These tires will deliver 90% of what you get from the Liteskin Big One… but are able to take a tonne of abuse while being air tight right out of the box.

Kind regards

Andrew Batchelar | Sponsorship / Customer Support

SCHWALBE North America
USA | Canada
1-888-700-5860 | 250-598-0397 ext: 106
xxx[email protected]
schwalbetires.com



This email and any accompanying documents contain privileged and confidential information and are intended solely for the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately reply to the sender by reply e-mail or by phone and then delete this message, including any attachment. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited.

From: Erik Swinburnson
Sent: May-27-18 7:12 AM
To: Andrew Batchelar
Subject: Fwd: an essay for Schwalbe marketing and engineering departments


Sent from my iPhone

Begin forwarded message:

From: Welch via Schwalbe Tires North America <[email protected]>​

Date: May 27, 2018 at 6:12:38 AM PDT​

To: Cesty​

Subject: an essay for Schwalbe marketing and engineering departments​

Reply-To: Welch​

Submitted on Sunday, May 27, 2018 - 06:12​

Submitted by anonymous user: 107.211.88.23​

Submitted values are:​

First Name: Reid​

Last Name: Welch​

Your State or Province: Florida​

Phone:​

Your email address:​

Subject: an essay for Schwalbe marketing and engineering departments​

Message Text: https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/outfitting-ccs-with-the-fat...​

File upload:​

The results of this submission may be viewed at:​

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)​

Andrew Batchelar via smtpcorp.com ​

12:07 PM (3 hours ago)​

to me​

Hi Reid,​

No problem at all! and be my guest with the copy paste.​

​

Kind regards​

​

Andrew Batchelar | Sponsorship / Customer Support​

​

SCHWALBE North America​

USA | Canada​

1-888-700-5860 | 250-598-0397 ext: 106​

xxx@schwalbetires.com​

schwalbetires.com​

​

​

​

This email and any accompanying documents contain privileged and confidential information and are intended solely for the recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately reply to the sender by reply e-mail or by phone and then delete this message, including any attachment. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited.​

​

From: Reid Welch [mailto:]​

Sent: May-29-18 5:39 AM​

To: Andrew Batchelar​

Subject: Re: an essay for Schwalbe marketing and engineering departments​

​

Hi Andrew. That is a great response and so educational, thank you!​

​

Can it be shared to the forum in copy and paste form?​

​

Your candor, experience, advice is all so appreciated here.​

​

I know the forum would rock to your letter's information and many new fans created.​

​

Cheers and warmest regards,​

​

Reid​

​

 

[Asher]

Ha wow that is an awesome letter. Kudos to Schwalbe! I wish they were publicly traded ...

It will be interesting to see how their tire widths evolve. 50-60mm may be optimal for efficiency, though going wider could make higher speed riding safer or more comfortable.

I'm guessing he recommended the Almotions over the TLE G because Almotions have more tread life? I think they're like double the weight though. (900 vs 450g ish).

Reid, may want to snip your phone number there.

 

[Nova Haibike]

(...snipped off most of the posting #23 essay whose link I sent to Schwalbe the other day )

Andrew Batchelar xxx@schwalbetires.com via smtpcorp.com

What’s the Ultimate tire in my opinion for your specific E-Bike use?: The 700x55c Marathon Almotion. These tires will deliver 90% of what you get from the Liteskin Big One… but are able to take a tonne of abuse while being air tight right out of the box.

According to Schwalbe's literature, there is no legal requirement for special tires for pedelecs that assist to 25 km/h, but they do recommend certain tires for e-bike use because of higher speeds, higher corning speeds, and loads. There is a certification requirement for high speed pedelecs; ECE-R75. Only their Energizer tires are rated for 50 km/h.

 

[bob armani]

Yep, Asher. Impractical to fit to a CCS, generally speaking.

But I am going to make it work on this bike,

Front tire is a Schwalbe G-One Speed SnakeSkin 29" x 2.0 mounted a couple of weeks ago. I will be changing it out soon for the larger tire size, topic of this thread.

Rear tire is the thread topic, Schwalbe Big One (obsolete 2016 name for today's identical G-One Speed 29" x 2.35" LiteSkin beach racing tire), perhaps the very lowest rolling resistance bicycle tire in production on asphalt today.

Also, please look at the volume difference between the nominal 2" and 2.35" sizes in the video above?

Eyeballing it, to me the rear seems like more than 50% more volume than the front tire.

It is like a fat tire bike now but on Reasonableness Steroids. Juiced cannot slightly modifiy the CCS to take this sized tire without burring the present product line distinction. Nonetheless, all CCS bikes would look better and run better with a Schwalbe SnakeSkin G-One 29" x 2.35" if the frames were only made to take this size of tire.

The bike was easy to pedal before with its pair of 2" wide G-Ones. Now, however, is astonishingly easier yet to pedal.

Even with the higher overall gear ratio caused by the larger circumference of the Big One, the CCS subjectively feels like each gear is two gears lower than before, so to speak.

I am sold on the rear tire and will make it work with more clearance because I like the reduced pedaling effort and the very silky suspension.

To finish crushing in the ID of the chainstays I need something stronger and more powerful than a Husky C clamp. The one I got today at Home Depot (lifetime replacement warranty on all Husky handtools, no matter what) has a malleable iron frame and this soft iron frame bent sideways on me--although it lasted long enough to get the basic clearance needed.

However, I need about 3mm more each side for practial use of this setup.

This would be so easy a job, to adjust for the needed width of the 2.35" nominally wide tire, if I only had the right tool for crushing in the ID of the chainstays...

....has anybody any experience? What do the pros use?

Does this job ever get done by others, or is it a no-no?

Aluminum is ductile in one direction, pretty much OK metal for this sort of additional forming.

Hello Reid-
Just a FYI-The G-One Snake skin 29ers are sold as standard equipment on the new Trek Police bike which I thought was very appropriate and a nice selling point for that bike. Sounds like you are happy with the rolling resistance with this tire. I kinda thought they were a tire that I would like due to that very same reason.

 

[Reid]

Hello Reid-
Just a FYI-The G-One Snake skin 29ers are sold as standard equipment on the new Trek Police bike which I thought was very appropriate and a nice selling point for that bike. Sounds like you are happy with the rolling resistance with this tire. I kinda thought they were a tire that I would like due to that very same reason.

Yes, thank you for that pointer! They have a bit more button height to make them better in gravel. Seems like an excellent compromise to gain better traction in loose stuff.

However, for myself, although for the short term I have returned the 2.00 SnakeSkin G-One to the rear wheel, I want the 2.35" wide LiteSkin superlight tire back there again!

Toward this end, of making enough clearance for the wide tire, a heavy duty Made in the USA C-clamp is coming! In a week or so I will try and do or die. I am gonna crush it! (grin)

Present, insufficiently generous chainstay clearance Big One/G-One 2.35" wide tire at 25 PSI;

the running clearance cannot be well photographed but it is there, just barely, and only at 20PSI,

However, I remain ever more determined to crush those chainstays as flat as required to clear that tire at 30PSI or so. I will fetch a picture of the C-clamp that is coming soon by mail order, made in the States, imagine that! I need about 4mm crush (would be nice) on each side, to allow for flex of the wheel with side loads. If I inflate this tire to 30PSI it gains a bit of width and would actually lock up nearly in the present shape of the chainstays.

If clearancing cannot be done well enough, at least I have the 2.0" SnakeSkin to use forever. It's good. But it does not roll quite so easily (you can feel the difference pedaling, especially off road, and the 2" tire does not float over sand like the larger tire does...)

Makes one think that a 2.8" tire like Rooster has on his beloved Juiced Bikes OceanCurrent cruiser is right in the "sweet spot" of bike tire/weight tradeoffs, explained in this Schwalbe page about the 27.5" new MTB standard which they promote.

 

[Reid]

https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/35493675

Maximum Opening Capacity (Inch) 2-3/8.
Opening Capacity (Inch) Throat Depth (Inch) 1-7/8.
Load Capacity (Lb.) 12500.
Screw Finish/Coating Black Oxide.
Screw Diameter (Inch ) 3/4.
Screw Material Cold Drawn Steel.
Color Gray

PS trivia: do you ever think of a screw thread as the lever that it merely is at most prime basis? And what it threads into as its fulcrum? Why, of course you have! I will be cranking on that square nut with plenty of external leverage. A Big Wrench, in fact! The fixed jaw will be fitted with a transverse span of half round steel of perhaps 1/4" diameter to concentrate pressure. Many small pressings, moving the clamp along between presses, will be done so all the movement of the chainstay tube occurs on the inside surface and no movement at all of the outside surface. The screw's point pressure will bear on a steel pad, under which will be a piece of softwood to crush and distribute the pressure so the outside of the chainstay will not change shape, only the inside.

 

[Bicyclista]

@Reid, you are a treasure on this forum! We are all rooting for you! Some of your postings read like poetry:

what it would feel like to ride with tires as thin as balloon rubber
how effortless it would be
for there would be no resistance over each little irregularity
float like a boat over shoals
a thorn will not flat me
our gravel here is soft crushed oolitic limestone

(I have taken some liberties, obviously.)

As you already know, crushing those chain stays to make room will make them stronger vertically but weaken them horizontally. Overall, it probably weakens them. There's a reason for that gusset between them. Go forward with your experiment, but be careful. We need you!

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Damn, Reid. Just Damn.