THE NEXT BREAKTHROUGH IN EBIKES- SONDORS STYLE

[ebikedelight]

+1 for a 20Ah battery.

That is a game changer, IMO.

agreed.....and I think in the near future, many of these ebike manufacturers will start producing ebikes with battery capacitys in that range.

IMHO..when it comes to battery capacity, its always better to have more then you need, because it allows the rider to do their drives around town, and not take the battery down to low on every ride...which will generally increase battery longevity.

The radrover does seem to be the overall best value for a higher performance electric fatbike, on the current market, but IMHO it still falls short on :

battery capacity , ability to easily increase top speed from 20 mph , different frame size options .

If you look closely where the battery mounts, on the radrover, there is still plently of room inside the ebike frame, to mount a larger capacity battery.

Im surprised the radrover company isn't offering a 20 a/h battery upgrade, that still fits neatly in the bike frame.

 

[George S.]

Honestly, I only see a few bikes I consider well-designed, if they are pushed above 25 mph. At 35 mph, it's almost comical. The forces that cause injury increase by 4x for every time you double speed.

Consider the most basic motorcycle, which retails around $3,000. The Honda Grom will easily keep up with traffic in a city. It has 200 mm disk brakes, a 4 inch front suspension travel, and a rear shock system. The tires are beefy enough to survive a pothole, or at least the wheels will not collapse. The Honda will be worth something in 3 years, a CF bike will be hard to sell if the battery is getting old. You can ride the Honda with a good full face helmet and not look bad.

There are costs to owning a motorcycle, but there are real benefits over a speed ebike. Training is hardly a bad thing. Technologies like ABS may never find their way to ebikes. I don't know how ebikes compete with e-motorcycles, down the road.

I almost bought a basic ($4,000) motorcycle a couple of years ago. Then I noticed ebikes and finally bought one. I just live with the low speeds. A bike like the Sondors is fun at low speed. That's where I would aim, rather than chasing something that creates a whole lot of problems.

 

[PowerMe]

IMHO..when it comes to battery capacity, its always better to have more then you need, because it allows the rider to do their drives around town, and not take the battery down to low on every ride

Preachin' to the choir, but heck yeah!

 

[Bike_On]

Some of what you claim, is complete hogwash. I have been driving a homebuilt 1000 watt electric fatbike , with the descriptions I stated in my 1st post , for well over a year , and it has stood up to everything I throw at it. I weigh around 230 lbs , and drive it on :

flat roads, dirt roads, inclines, gravel roads , over grass , over sand...etc...

and it doesn't have rear suspension, nor does it need rear suspension. My disc brakes work fine at 160 m.m.

Yes, as another person mentioned, there would be some hurdles involving a ebike that can do 30 + mph out of the box , due to state laws...but then can be easily overcome, by having the ebike delivered with a governor or programmable controller, that sets the top speed of the ebike at around 20 mph, and then leave it up to the individual buyer if they wish to modify the governor or reprogram the controller, to do higher speeds { at their own risk} .

No, my idea is not meant to compete with the $6000 stealth bomber ebike....but it is meant to up the ante a bit, from the stock sondors ebike,

Offer better performance, better battery, front suspension and 7 gears, different frame sizes and keep the price below $2000.

IMHO, this is the next big step forward , in offering a ebike to the masses, at a fair price point, in a package that has the abilty to go faster then 15 mph , and cover about 30 miles distance on 1 charge , while offering 7 gears and 3 frame sizes

EBD,

Given you ride with fat bike wheels and tires, I would assume the 4" tires and wide rims take some of the edge off when riding. How fast does your bike go on the flats with 48V, 1000W? You may need the extra power and battery for a fat bike, just to be able to get above 20mph. Did you say how much your hub weights?

 

[ebikedelight]

EBD,

Given you ride with fat bike wheels and tires, I would assume the 4" tires and wide rims take some of the edge off when riding. How fast does your bike go on the flats with 48V, 1000W? You may need the extra power and battery for a fat bike, just to be able to get above 20mph. Did you say how much your hub weights?

My setup is using a gravity bullseye monster pro fatbike { $1000 new} , a generic 1000 watt- 48 volt YESOMCUSA brushless direct drive rear hub motor { $200} and a aftermarket LYEN programmable controller- 12 FET - $129 { it can be programmed up to 70 volts , but my current setting is around 60 volts/ 60 amps max} and a 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 battery off ebay { $420}

I weigh 230 lbs, and on flats, I can reach 35 mph....I cant remember what the weight was on my hub motor..maybe around 15 lbs or so.

either way, the bike easily handles those speeds, and I do take this ebike off road a lot...no problems with the bike frame breaking or welds breaking, etc.

its held up great.
...I even did my own wheel lacing , and used standard 14 gauge spokes...and haven't had 1 of them break yet.

 

[ebikedelight]

Honestly, I only see a few bikes I consider well-designed, if they are pushed above 25 mph. At 35 mph, it's almost comical. The forces that cause injury increase by 4x for every time you double speed.

Consider the most basic motorcycle, which retails around $3,000. The Honda Grom will easily keep up with traffic in a city. It has 200 mm disk brakes, a 4 inch front suspension travel, and a rear shock system. The tires are beefy enough to survive a pothole, or at least the wheels will not collapse. The Honda will be worth something in 3 years, a CF bike will be hard to sell if the battery is getting old. You can ride the Honda with a good full face helmet and not look bad.

There are costs to owning a motorcycle, but there are real benefits over a speed ebike. Training is hardly a bad thing. Technologies like ABS may never find their way to ebikes. I don't know how ebikes compete with e-motorcycles, down the road.

I almost bought a basic ($4,000) motorcycle a couple of years ago. Then I noticed ebikes and finally bought one. I just live with the low speeds. A bike like the Sondors is fun at low speed. That's where I would aim, rather than chasing something that creates a whole lot of problems.

View attachment 4053

I think if there was a lot of issues/ breakages involving ebike frames, and consumers getting hurt , we would hear a lot more about it in the news, and there would be a ton of class action lawsuits.

IMHO, many big box bikes can be used for ebike conversions that will achieve 25- 30 mph..and still be relatively safe on flat surfaces if common sense is used.
Now if a person trys to do 30 mph on $100 walmart bike , on a mountain trail, doing jumps and riding over logs, then of course issues are bound to arise.

I surely would not even consider having a ebike, that used old style caliper brakes with rubber pads that stop the bike by rubbing on the sides of the rim.

 

[ebikedelight]

as far as safety issues are concerned, 1 of the most important issues is of course the dropout strength and its ability to handle the torque of the hub motor.
but that's why we strengthen the dropouts on our own...I build my own torque arms for that sole purpose

 

[ebikedelight]

My setup is using a gravity bullseye monster pro fatbike { $1000 new} , a generic 1000 watt- 48 volt YESOMCUSA brushless direct drive rear hub motor { $200} and a aftermarket LYEN programmable controller- 12 FET - $129 { it can be programmed up to 70 volts , but my current setting is around 60 volts/ 60 amps max} and a 48 volt/ 20 ah lifepo4 battery off ebay { $420}

I weigh 230 lbs, and on flats, I can reach 35 mph....I cant remember what the weight was on my hub motor..maybe around 15 lbs or so.

either way, the bike easily handles those speeds, and I do take this ebike off road a lot...no problems with the bike frame breaking or welds breaking, etc.

its held up great.
...I even did my own wheel lacing , and used standard 14 gauge spokes...and haven't had 1 of them break yet.

FWIW....I have pushed my generic 1oo0 watt hub motor , to 2500 watts { 50 volts- 50 amps} on several occasions, and the motor has held up fine.

 

[pxpaulx]

Yes...its close...

11 A/H battery is a bit low in capacity IMHO....and im not sure if they make the radrover in 3 different frame sizes.

looks like it only comes in 1 frame size...only 11 a/h battery...and limited to top speed of 20 mph..

so its still quite a bit away from my vision. ...although its price point looks very attractive.

I took the suspension fork off my radrover, that took almost two inches of the stand over height...so it could potentially come in at least two sizes if they offered both suspension and rigid versions!

 

[Bike_On]

I think if there was a lot of issues/ breakages involving ebike frames, and consumers getting hurt , we would hear a lot more about it in the news, and there would be a ton of class action lawsuits.

IMHO, many big box bikes can be used for ebike conversions that will achieve 25- 30 mph..and still be relatively safe on flat surfaces if common sense is used.
Now if a person trys to do 30 mph on $100 walmart bike , on a mountain trail, doing jumps and riding over logs, then of course issues are bound to arise.

I surely would not even consider having a ebike, that used old style caliper brakes with rubber pads that stop the bike by rubbing on the sides of the rim.

EBD,
Your set up, while costing $1750, is not with entry level bike components. Bikes Direct actually have decent components, from what I have seen.

Your front brakes are listed at 180mm, not 160mm, rears are 160mm. Avid is an upgrade.

The Lyen's controller is a proven, DIY product at ES forum. I consider it very worthy for pumping amps in the 40-60A range. Very few OEMs can touch that. That is the only reason that heavy bike will go 35mph.

While the motor and battery are generic Chinese flavor, you seems to have sized them correctly and time will tell how they hold up. The fact that you are handy with a torque arm and lacing your wheel (both unusual skills for a buyer) kind of DQs your bike as a sample test for a generic big power fat bike. Wheels made in China, and shipped Sondor's style with no torque arm.... well, how would that fair?

Off road? On what, single track? Mtn bike hill riding? Flat rail trails? You have a big hub motor (15-17lbs) on a fat bike (30-35 lbs?) with 20Ahrs of lifepo4 (16-18lbs)+ controller (3 lbs), so the bike is pretty heavy for off road. I wonder how long you can ride pushing 40A+??

 

[ebikedelight]

EBD,
Your set up, while costing $1750, is not with entry level bike components. Bikes Direct actually have decent components, from what I have seen.

Your front brakes are listed at 180mm, not 160mm, rears are 160mm. Avid is an upgrade.

The Lyen's controller is a proven, DIY product at ES forum. I consider it very worthy for pumping amps in the 40-60A range. Very few OEMs can touch that. That is the only reason that heavy bike will go 35mph.

While the motor and battery are generic Chinese flavor, you seems to have sized them correctly and time will tell how they hold up. The fact that you are handy with a torque arm and lacing your wheel (both unusual skills for a buyer) kind of DQs your bike as a sample test for a generic big power fat bike. Wheels made in China, and shipped Sondor's style with no torque arm.... well, how would that fair?

Off road? On what, single track? Mtn bike hill riding? Flat rail trails? You have a big hub motor (15-17lbs) on a fat bike (30-35 lbs?) with 20Ahrs of lifepo4 (16-18lbs)+ controller (3 lbs), so the bike is pretty heavy for off road. I wonder how long you can ride pushing 40A+??

My battery and controller and even the generic 1000 watt yescomusa, seems to handle 40 amps , constant, with no real issues.
My battery supposedly is rated for 40 amps constant and 60 amp surge.
Once I get in the 50 amp- 50 volt ranges { 2500 watts} , I make a conscious effort to not push those numbers for to long....in my area, we have a steep long incline, where I regularly push 2500 watts into the motor, but only for around 30 seconds or so.....I would imagine if I tired to do that for more then a few minutes, the motor would overheat and have problems with wires melting or magnets getting damaged...I did upgrade my phase wires to 10AWG wire.

 

[ebikedelight]

FWIW...I also built my wifes ebike....and it is a generic mongoose dolomite fatbike which cost me $179 shipped/ new.

I then bought a new yescomusa 1000 watt motor { like is on my gravity ebike} and am using the stock yescomusa controller that comes with it , the same lifepo4 -48 volt battery / 20 ah im using on my gravity. ...and her bike can do around 30 mph top speed,...she weighs around 170 lbs

Im not sure what the stock controller puts out in amps, with those yescomusa brushless motor kits for $199 shipped...I would guess around 25 amps or so ?

so even with the stock generic Chinese controller , it can push her bike at 30 mph....I mounted her motor on the front wheel , just for experimentation purposes, and it works nicely.

 

[ebikedelight]

EBD,
Your set up, while costing $1750, is not with entry level bike components. Bikes Direct actually have decent components, from what I have seen.

Your front brakes are listed at 180mm, not 160mm, rears are 160mm. Avid is an upgrade.

The Lyen's controller is a proven, DIY product at ES forum. I consider it very worthy for pumping amps in the 40-60A range. Very few OEMs can touch that. That is the only reason that heavy bike will go 35mph.

While the motor and battery are generic Chinese flavor, you seems to have sized them correctly and time will tell how they hold up. The fact that you are handy with a torque arm and lacing your wheel (both unusual skills for a buyer) kind of DQs your bike as a sample test for a generic big power fat bike. Wheels made in China, and shipped Sondor's style with no torque arm.... well, how would that fair?

Off road? On what, single track? Mtn bike hill riding? Flat rail trails? You have a big hub motor (15-17lbs) on a fat bike (30-35 lbs?) with 20Ahrs of lifepo4 (16-18lbs)+ controller (3 lbs), so the bike is pretty heavy for off road. I wonder how long you can ride pushing 40A+??

You made a comment above, about " wheels made in china ..."

as far as I know, most bikes, are made in china...even my $1000 gravity fatbike, with bluto front suspension.

Have you seen the machines used in chinese bike factories, that actually spoke the rims mechanically ? They seem to do a pretty good job overall, but of course with any bike, the user needs to recheck things like spokes, gear adjustments, etc...before their first ride, and after future rides.

The radrover is the closest thing out there , that seems to try and fill the niche and price points I am envisioning , but with only a 11ah battery
and 1 sized frame, it greatly limits its potential customer base.

 

[PowerMe]

Factories, regardless of where they are located, have to meet guidelines of the product specifications. If an American company, for instance, manufacturers a certain item in China, there are still technical guidelines and tolerances that need to be followed or else the factory won't be trusted to make said goods. Move that factory to some other country or even plop it down somewhere near or in the U.S. The factory still has to meet the specifications and design that were created, to the tolerances and QA specified by the client (or else risk having an entire batch rejected).

So it comes down to the design, the specs, and the adherence to those specs.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

@ebikedelight , Personally, as a female rider I do like to ride faster than 15mph, as do most of my women customers so I find your statement about women riders a bit lacking, to put it politely. I've built conversions for both men and women riders that are 750 to 1000+ watts with 48V battery packs numerous times- everyone is delighted with the power they have on hills and to haul stuff. You don't have to be a heavy person to need the power to carry over 200lbs.

The crude consensus among bike designers when it comes designing bike frames for female riders is "shrink it and pink it"...

I found this video which I think is a sure shot way of making ebike videos go viral..
I think Court needs a female co-reviewer and I'm sure there will be a ton of traffic

 

[MLB]

https://electricbikereview.com/rad-power-bikes/radrover/

11 ah is hardly small. that's 30-50miles with peddling on many bikes. Maybe not fatbike.

20mph is the federal law, so you can't discredit for not going faster.

Costs a LOT more than 200 to double battery size. Especially going "extra large" and that is. And many (Most?) don't have the physical space for a battery twice as big (and heavy)

Most people buy and haul around more battery than they need. This isn't your car, you don't have to have range anxiety. It's got pedals.

And having to make/stock multiple frame sizes isn't insignificant cost either.

 

[MLB]

The crude consensus among bike designers when it comes designing bike frames for female riders is "shrink it and pink it"...

However, I found this video which I think is a sure shot way of making ebike videos go viral..

I think Court needs a female co-reviewer and I'm sure there will be a ton of traffic

I'd THEN like to offer my services as videographer.

 

[PowerMe]

11 ah is hardly small. that's 30-50miles with peddling on many bikes.

30mi - 32mi is the range I get with an 11.6ah battery on my EVO Street. Sure, they say it can get up to 60mi, but that's if you weigh 90 lbs, on a flat road, with heavy winds to your back.

 

[ebikedelight]

https://electricbikereview.com/rad-power-bikes/radrover/

11 ah is hardly small. that's 30-50miles with peddling on many bikes. Maybe not fatbike.

20mph is the federal law, so you can't discredit for not going faster.

Costs a LOT more than 200 to double battery size. Especially going "extra large" and that is. And many (Most?) don't have the physical space for a battery twice as big (and heavy)

Most people buy and haul around more battery than they need. This isn't your car, you don't have to have range anxiety. It's got pedals.

And having to make/stock multiple frame sizes isn't insignificant cost either.

Heres the facts .

I bought a NEW. 22a/h - lifepo4 battery , 48 volt with BMS installed for $420 shipped to my house. This can handle 30 amps continuous and
60 amp bursts. 20 mph may be federal law, on STREETS.,...but many of us will ride on trails, beaches , sides of the road, etc...so we wont always be restricted to 20 mph. In my location, you wont get 30-=35 miles distance on a 11 A/H battery , unless you plan on pedaling ALOT. I have 3 large inclines on our main roadways , that will quickly deplete a 11 A/H battery with a 185+ lb rider.

I build ebikes, so I have a pretty good idea on this stuff .

If I can purchase a brand new 48 volt/ 22 a/h lifepo4 battery, with charger and BMS , for $420 shipped to my door , then we can be assured they are
building these batterys for under $350 ...and possibly cloer to $250....These are mass produced overseas by workers who make pennies per hour.

 

[ebikedelight]

Heres the facts .

I bought a NEW. 22a/h - lifepo4 battery , 48 volt with BMS installed for $420 shipped to my house. This can handle 30 amps continuous and
60 amp bursts. 20 mph may be federal law, on STREETS.,...but many of us will ride on trails, beaches , sides of the road, etc...so we wont always be restricted to 20 mph. In my location, you wont get 30-=35 miles distance on a 11 A/H battery , unless you plan on pedaling ALOT. I have 3 large inclines on our main roadways , that will quickly deplete a 11 A/H battery with a 185+ lb rider.

I build ebikes, so I have a pretty good idea on this stuff .

If I can purchase a brand new 48 volt/ 22 a/h lifepo4 battery, with charger and BMS , for $420 shipped to my door , then we can be assured they are
building these batterys for under $350 ...and possibly cloer to $250....These are mass produced overseas by workers who make pennies per hour.

Now...for a person that weighs 135 lbs, like Court...he may be able to go 30+ miles distance on a 11 AH battery...especially if its driving in a area like florida, on flat surfaces.