The Carrot Effect

leifg said:
Perhaps carrot effect is an SL phenomenon -- I have a vado 5.0, and generally just match the assist to the speed I want. It's easy to hit >25mph, so no need to try harder for the carrot (I'm happy with that speed).
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My records of riding my Vado 6.0 (which is a 45 km/h e-bike similar to Vado 5.0) clearly show my leg power was at its highest on full Turbo rides :) It it is not the carrot effect then I don't know what it is :)
 
Stefan Mikes said:
My records of riding my Vado 6.0 (which is a 45 km/h e-bike similar to Vado 5.0) clearly show my leg power was at its highest on full Turbo rides :) It it is not the carrot effect then I don't know what it is :)
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Well I guess you need more motor power! Presumably if you had unlimited motor power at your disposal, you wouldn't always pedal harder at the highest assist because you could easily maintain any speed. But these bikes (especially big vado) tease us by allowing well over 250W power as we surge up to speed....and then taper down to 250W limit .

So the high speed we initially obtain comes with relatively low effort -- until the motor power starts to taper and we need to pedal harder to maintain the glorious speeds we were just enjoying.

So perhaps there is a combined carrot effect + motor tease :) where carrot effect is stronger on SL and motor tease is stronger on big vado.
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
Question: Do you sometimes notice a tendency to exert yourself more at higher assist levels?

Not because a hill or headwind demanded more assist and exertion at the same time. Just for the sensation of gobbling up ground at higher speed and leg power?

Happens often enough to me that I've come to call it the "Carrot Effect". It's generally not intentional. I just find myself in Carrot Effect and go with it till I run out of steam.

I recall at least one other mention of something like the Carrot Effect on EBR. I can only imagine what it must be like for a strong rider!

Good example from 2 days ago: Pedaling my power-sensing Vado SL 5.0 in ECO (35/35) on a flattish stretch of Coast Highway at around 160-180W — a (somewhat) sustainable exertion level I enjoy. Then bumped assist to SPORT (60/60) at a light just to start out but forgot to go back to ECO.

Next thing I know, I'm flying along in SPORT — not just at higher ground speed, but also at ~50W more leg power! Just happened on its own, but it felt so good that I kept it up for a couple of miles before easing off.

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The SL seems to promote the Carrot Effect, and I very much like that about the bike. But the same thing happens from time to time on 2 different hub-drives with well-implemented torque-sensing assist.

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I lump these 3 ebikes as having "exertion-sensing" assist (ESA) — meaning that they track rider exertion in the form of torque or power or both and dole out motor power accordingly. Guessing the Carrot Effect requires some form of ESA but don't really understand it.

Thoughts? Experiences?
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This thread has made me think about my riding in a different way. That’s a good thing.

My first adult bike (at 71) was a Cannondale Adventure Hybrid. I found it had what I thought of as its natural speed. In a middle to high middle gear I could pedal easily at about 12 - 15 mph. When conditions allowed, I could also ride effortlessly at the highest gears at as much as 20 mph before my legs or lungs gave out.

On my Vado SL, the feeling is the same at my assist level at 14-16 mph. I increase assist as I tire or the hills or wind necessitates higher assist levels. And that’s when the carrots appear. If I’m in turbo and forget to lower assist I do find myself riding faster and faster until I realize I’m still in turbo. If the conditions are right going down to Sport doesn’t heavily affect my speed or slow my cadence.

Another difference between analog and electric is cadence. I rode most comfortably at 75-80 RPM on the Cannondale. On the SL, I’m most comfortable at 85-90 RPM. I suppose, since the gearing is similar, this is where the extra speed on the SL comes from. On both bikes, I selected the highest gears at which I could pedal without strain. I change assist levels as needed for climbs or wind but try and ride at the same cadences. And that’s where the carrots seem to come in. I’m riding at 85 RPM and if I increase assist for a climb, I end up at the highest gear going really fast.
 
When I bought my Haibike xduro 8 years ago, 90% of my riding was done in Eco assist mode. As the years passed, I noticed that Eco became reserved for dead-calm flat, downhill, and downwind; Tour/Sport/Turbo began to see more and more use.

This year saw me purchase a Bulls Iconic step-thru, a heavier bike, with wider tires, I have named it Winnie, short for Winnebago. After two months, 90% of my riding is now done in either Sport or Turbo. My average speed has increased from 18-20 kmh, to 24-26 kmh, and my average ride time has also gone up between 15 to 30 minutes.

I'm riding faster, further, longer, and loving it.
 
Big-time Carrot Effect on the Vado SL today! Plan A was to ride out at 1500 to see if I could find some cool-weather cycling garb at Cadence Cyclery, 5 mi down the Coast Highway. Then home by 1630 to walk the dog before the coyotes come out.

But things kept coming up. So to make up for lost time, I pedaled hard in SPORT the whole way there and back. ECO and OFF are my usuals on coast rides.

Result for the 10-mile round trip: Average and adjusted average rider powers of 165W and 200W, resp. These figures are nothing special, of course, but they were 10% and 18% higher than my previous personal bests!

Came home with no new duds, but only because Cadence is the best LBS ever! Haven't shopped for proper riding clothes in decades, so Steve gave me a crash course on modern options. Then he took me through his stock.

Could've tried to sell me what he had but concluded instead that my best bet was to get what I really needed online. Then he proceeded to help me shop 2 different unaffiliated websites right then and there. Who does that??
 
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Stefan Mikes said:
A friend? :)

A nice reading for the morning coffee at 06:44, pitch black outside! :) (Yes, it is six forty four not 0644, haha!)
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Glad you enjoyed it! But why muck up an excellent 4-digit time format by adding a totally superfluous colon? In US military and medical settings, 24-hour time is universal. No colons, and no ambiguity as to what time is meant.
 
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Jeremy McCreary said:
Glad you enjoyed it! But why muck up an excellent 4-digit time format by adding a totally superfluous colon? In US military and medical settings, 24-hour time is universal. No colons, and no ambiguity as to what time is meant.
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It is because Jeremy sixteen hundred hours is over 66 days 😃

Your clock 06:00 pm
Our clock: 18:00. Isn't it shorter? Isn't it clear? 'When are we meeting each other? At eighteen' 😊

20241123_124030.jpg
It is certainly post meridiem here 😃
 
i think we should get rid of apostrophes and capital letters, every reason people give for having them is simply a redundant convention.
there arent 26 letters, theres goddam 52.

the apostrophe is written slang and you dont speak capital letters.
 
Chargeride said:
i think we should get rid of apostrophes and capital letters, every reason people give for having them is simply a redundant convention.
there arent 26 letters, theres goddam 52.

the apostrophe is written slang and you dont speak capital letters.
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Well-known linguist John McWhorter largely agrees with you on both counts.

Lets Chill Out About Apostrophes https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/...unlocked_article_code=1.cE4.6EWz.jrm8x9vPx3qp

But there's also a fairly recent counter-trend — often seen on this forum, in fact — wherein nearly every "s" is preceded by an apostrophe regardless of its role. As in, "Bicycle's are fun, but I hate flat tire's."

I personally think that properly used capitals and apostrophes make written speech easier to interpret in a way that's largely unnecessary in spoken language. Leaving them out makes the writer's job easier, but the reader has to work that much harder to get the intended meaning.

I think the extra work should stay with the writer, who going into the exchange is the only one who knows what's really meant.
 
Jeremy McCreary said:
Says the guy who speaks a language bristling with diacritical marks.
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There are linguists who believe English should actually have a plenty of extra characters! I do agree. How do you tell 'minute' (unit of time) from 'minute' (tiny)? :)

A word on Polish diacritical marks: I and friends sometimes play with writing Polish the phonetic way; that could be done, as many things in the language are just historical (it pertains to English, too). The argument to keep the diacritics is:

"Polka" means a female Pole or a Czech dance.
"Półka" means a shelf.

:)
 
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