Supercharger Rohloff HS vs Delite Nuvinci HS

[Wanabxtrm]

It may be worth seeing if they reveal anything new at Eurobike. That starts up in July.

Until I actually start riding my delite I don't have much to add (hopefully that's tomorrow).

 

[CharlieMK]

In the Citrus Cycles review about the supercharger Rohloff they say: “in gear 14 I can go 65 km/h and my feet still aren’t spinning too fast..”

Anyone who can confirm that? I’m having a hard time getting a Rohloff test drive..
Definitely this was a no go with the Delite Nuvinci.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

“In gear 14 I can go 65 km/h and my feet still aren’t spinning too fast..”
Anyone who can confirm that?

Charlie ...

Be sceptical and methodical. Ask: "How do we go about checking that the claim is correct?" (Answer: maths.)

Fear not, the calculations are straightforward.

R&M publish their ebikes' gearing in the "Frame Geometries" section of the individual listings. For the Supercharger GX Rohloff the gearing is 1.66 metres in gear #1 to 8.84 metres in gear #14. This is the distance the bike will travel forward for each revolution of the pedals.

Let's keep our maths simple by rounding the top gear to 9 metres travelled for each revolution of the pedals.

So much for the gearing; onward to pedalling cadence...

• 60 - 70 rev/min is typical for most of us.
• 70 - 90 rev/min is typical for roadies; but we can manage it too!
• 90 - 110 rev/min is vey fast.
• 110 - 120 rev/min is crazy fast - only for very short bursts.

In the screenshots from my calculator app...

• 9 is the gearing (9 metres travelled per pedal revolution).
• 80 and 120 are rev/min (fast pedalling and crazy fast pedalling).
• 9 x 80 or 9 x 120 gives the distance travelled in one minute.
• 9 x 80 x 60 or 9 x 120 x 60 gives the distance (in metres) travelled in one hour; therefore...
• 9 x 80 x 60 = 43.2 km/h - a sustainable high cruising speed on level roads.
• 9 x 120 x 60 = 64.8 km/h - achievable (to prove a point) while plummeting downhill.

... David

P.S.
The Supercharger GH Nuvinci's top speeds calculated as above are:

• 38.2 km/h at 80 rev/min - 5 km/h slower than GX Rohloff;
• 58.8 km/h at 120 rev/min - 6 km/h slower than GX Rohloff.

The Supercharger GT HS Nuvinci's top speeds calculated as above are:

• 45.8 km/h at 80 rev/min - 2.6 km/h faster than GX Rohloff;
• 68.7 km/h at 120 rev/min - 3.9 km/h faster than GX Rohloff.

 

[CharlieMK]

Charlie ...

Be sceptical and methodical. Ask: "How do we go about checking that the claim is correct?"


The Supercharger Nuvinci's top speeds calculated as above are:

• 38.2 km/h at 80 rev/min - 5 km/h slower;
• 58.8 km/h at 120 rev/min - 6 km/h slower.

Thanks, you explained it very well and now I understand the numbers that are mentioned in the bike’s description.

One question though. You say the nuvinci’s top speed is lower. But according to the documentation the Nuvinci travels more meters per pedal turn: 9.54m, compared to 8.84 for the Rohloff.

So the nuvincis top speed should be higher? If so, the numbers don’t match my test drive.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

You say the nuvinci’s top speed is lower. But according to the documentation the Nuvinci travels more meters per pedal turn: 9.54m, compared to 8.84 for the Rohloff.
.

Charlie ...

Both Nuvinci and Rohloff bikes come in "slow" and "high speed" versions but there are two models (GH & GT) for the Nuvinci and one (GX) for the Rohloff.

• Both Rohloffs are GX models with the same gearing (1.66 m - 8.84 m).
• The "slow" Nuvinci is a GH (2.15 m - 8.17 m).
• The HS Nuvinci is a GT (2.51 m - 9.54 m).

R&M's classifications (inspired by GT, grand touring, gran turismo cars?)...

• GT = touring
• GH = heavy duty
• GX = crossover (road & trail)

Confusingly, most R&M models have "Touring" versions, denoting derailleur gears. Mustn't moan, though: with the exception of the Nevo, all R&M ebikes have English names with standard English pronunciations (including the Homage). The best explanation of R&M nomenclature is, of course, by Chris Nolte.

... David

 

[tompat]

In the Citrus Cycles review about the supercharger Rohloff they say: “in gear 14 I can go 65 km/h and my feet still aren’t spinning too fast..”
Anyone who can confirm that?

Is he kidding? 65 km/h on a Supercharger GX Rohloff HS means a cadence of 120.

I have maxed out 61 km/h on my Supercharger GX Rohloff HS on steep downhill, it wasn't a long stretch so I had no time to estimate cadence but I found it to be "pedaling like crazy". More often I have reached speeds about 50-55 km/h downhill and even then the cadence is a bit high. But cadence is a personal preference and some like it wilder than others.

Anyway, speeds over 45 km/h are difficult to maintain on anything but downhill since the bike no longer gives any assistance. So the question is more theoretical than practical. If you can pedal it with a cadence comfortable to you at 45 km/h I'd say go for it.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Anyway, speeds over 45 km/h are difficult to maintain on anything but downhill since the bike no longer gives any assistance.

Tom ...
Yesterday morning (the day you are enjoying now) I rode my ebike over a country switchback road that constantly changed from paved to unpaved. Again and again the speed exceeded 50 km/h, just freewheeling. It would have been foolhardy to have distracted myself by pedalling at way over the power assist speed.
... David

 

[Over50]

Great info from David Berry and it is consistent with what I experienced today (1st Rohloff commute). I just posted on my Charger GX HS thread: I cruised about the same speed on my last few commutes with my Charger Nuvinci HS as with my first commute with my Charger Rohloff. Both in Tour mode. The difference is I still had 2 gears remaining on the Rohloff (was cruising in gear 12) whereas the Nuvinci was maxed out. I was also cruising at a more comfortable cadence on the Rohloff. This was about a 1.5 mile stretch through a park with no stop lights where I ran about 23-24 mph on both bikes.

 

[Alaskan]

Great info from David Berry and it is consistent with what I experienced today (1st Rohloff commute). I just posted on my Charger GX HS thread: I cruised about the same speed on my last few commutes with my Charger Nuvinci HS as with my first commute with my Charger Rohloff. Both in Tour mode. The difference is I still had 2 gears remaining on the Rohloff (was cruising in gear 12) whereas the Nuvinci was maxed out. I was also cruising at a more comfortable cadence on the Rohloff. This was about a 1.5 mile stretch through a park with no stop lights where I ran about 23-24 mph on both bikes.

My Homage Rohloff HS is due to arrive on Thursday. I am curious as to how you are adjusting to the shifting peculiarities of the Rohloff. Any observations, hints,n tips or tricks that might be helpful?

 

[Over50]

My Homage Rohloff HS is due to arrive on Thursday. I am curious as to how you are adjusting to the shifting peculiarities of the Rohloff. Any observations, hints,n tips or tricks that might be helpful?

@Mr. Coffee might be a better person to ask. He's had his longer and I only have less than 100 miles on mine. I am shifting as I do with my traditional drive trains. At the top of my pedal stroke I stop for a second, shift and then resume pedaling. I was thinking on my commute today that perhaps I will get more efficient at that whereby my pause is a micro second and smoother. They say the Rohloff once broken in is a very fast shifter. A couple of times on the commute today I shifted in the wrong direction. Both times starting from a stop at an intersection. Kind of embarrassing. For the last month or so, since I decided to sell the Nuvinci bike, I've been mostly riding traditional drive train bikes with trigger shifters. I do experience what Court pointed out in his review of the GX - that it won't shift under load. When I want to change gears at a stop light I have to relax pressure from the pedals.

Edit: I have to add. I'm so pleased with the Rohloff and the dual battery choice. I know a good experience is only going to get better as I break in the Rohloff and become more educated and experienced at shifting.

 

[Alaskan]

Tha KS and good to know. I've had a recent conversation with Mr. Coffee and he had some good info. Today my wife and I rode 50 miles for an overnight junket. She rode the Nevo and I rode the Cube with CX and Shimano deore xt 11 speed with 11-46 cassette. So much more lively ride than the nuvinci GH nevo. You do pay an efficiency price for the seamless, quiet convenience of the nuvinci.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Having had three-plus weeks on the Rohloff it is hard to imagine ever going back. There is a very slight efficiency loss, especially at low cadence. But the smoothness of the shifting, the acceptably broad gear range, and the indestructibility of the drive make up for that.

I think the secret to easy shifting on the Rohloff is to always try to shift when your pedals are in a "12-oclock/6-oclock" position. You are placing exactly zero torque on the drive train at that instant in time so your pause can be even shorter. I've also noticed that shifting is smoother and quicker if you have some momentum built up.

 

[CharlieMK]

Great info from David Berry and it is consistent with what I experienced today (1st Rohloff commute). I just posted on my Charger GX HS thread: I cruised about the same speed on my last few commutes with my Charger Nuvinci HS as with my first commute with my Charger Rohloff. Both in Tour mode. The difference is I still had 2 gears remaining on the Rohloff (was cruising in gear 12) whereas the Nuvinci was maxed out. I was also cruising at a more comfortable cadence on the Rohloff. This was about a 1.5 mile stretch through a park with no stop lights where I ran about 23-24 mph on both bikes.

Just to be sure: David Berry says the Nuvinci HS should be faster than the Rohloff HS when cruising at the highest gear. What you're saying seems to be the opposite?

 

[Deleted member 18083]

Calculating the required pedalling cadence for a given speed (let's say 45 km/h) while using the highest gear is straightforward. I am aware that we can just call up a website or use an app, but understanding the process myself before having a computer do the number crunching appeals to me.

Just remember that cycling speed is expressed as distance per hour and pedalling cadence as revolutions per minute. We must convert our speed to distance per minute - by dividing by the sixty minutes that there are in an hour.

• 60 km/h = 1000 metres travelled in one minute
• 45 km/h = 750 metres travelled in one minute
• 30 km/h = 500 metres travelled in one minute

Now, divide the distance travelled in one minute by the "gear development" (metres travelled per rotation of the pedals) to find the pedalling cadence (revolutions per minute).

Here are the calculations for the Superchargers travelling at 45 km/h in their highest gear...

• GT Nuvinci : 45000 / 60 / 9.54 = 79 rev/min
• GX Rohloff : 45000 / 60 / 8.84 = 85 rev/min
• GH Nuvinci : 45000 / 60 / 8.17 = 92 rev/min

Explanation:

• 45000 : distance (in metres) travelled in one hour at 45 km/h.
• / 60 : divide by 60 to convert to distance travelled in one minute at 45 km/h.
• / 9.54 etc : divide by the gear development to calculate pedalling cadence.

... David

 

[tompat]

I'll figure some easily understood equations to show how fast one must pedal

Use the website I posted earlier in this thread. It has a cadence slider and you can just pull it around to see what happens with the two different shifting systems I added to it (Rohloff and N380).

http://ritzelrechner.de/

 

[Over50]

Just to be sure: David Berry says the Nuvinci HS should be faster than the Rohloff HS when cruising at the highest gear. What you're saying seems to be the opposite?

I misinterpreted then. I focused on this part of what he wrote:

"...The Supercharger GH Nuvinci's top speeds calculated as above are...
38.2 km/h at 80 rev/min - 5 km/h slower than GX Rohloff ... 58.8 km/h at 120 rev/min - 6 km/h slower than GX Rohloff."

My experience is with the HS (not Supercharger) GX Rohloff and Charger Nuvinci models. With quite a bit of commuting on the Nuvinci model I can say that I could cruise around 23 mph (Tour mode) but the cadence was a bit faster than I like, taxing my lungs more, and the gear range is maxed out. I would hit sprints of 25 or 26 mph with boost to Sport or Turbo but just for short bursts (all on flats). In one commute with the Rohloff, I cruised around 23-24 mph at slower (more comfortable cadence) in 12th gear (Tour) and did not move out of Tour mode to hit a burst of almost 26 mph. So I am assuming that a 25-26 mph cruising speed is more easily achieved on the Rohloff bike. Very unscientific but it feels to me that to maintain an approximate cruising speed of 23-24 mph the Rohloff requires a bit less from the rider. Or for an equal amount of rider input, the Rohloff bike is capable of a couple of miles per hour greater cruising speed.

 

[Alaskan]

This article shows the why and how of gear systems efficiency https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/

Note that the Nuvinci resultas are for the 360 model However I don't think that the expansion of ratio range necessarily improved efficiency.

Singlespeed: 97% efficient (Drivetrain loss of 6w @ 200w).
Rohloff : 94.5% efficient on average across 14 gears (Drivetrain loss of 11w @ 200w)
Pinion: 90.5% efficient on average across 18 gears (Drivetrain loss of 19w @ 200w).
Shimano Alfine 11: 90.5% efficient on average across 11 gears (Drivetrain loss of 19w @ 200w).
Shimano Nexus 8: 90% efficient on average across 8 gears (Drivetrain loss of 20w @ 200w).
Nuvinci 360: 83.5% efficient on average across the gear range (Drivetrain loss of 33w @ 200w).

 

[Wanabxtrm]

I personally felt more 'drag' going between the Rohloff and nuvinci with the engine off. Rohloff I didn't mind pedaling with zero assist. Nuvinci I felt like I had a brake rubbing; just my $0.02. Also while demoing the nuvinci on steeper trails I found that under enough load, it would bind slightly just like the other systems until you let up. After a few rides on the Rohloff I find I let up to shift subconsciously just like when your hitting the clutch; and havent found it a concern for myself.

From a pedaling perspective it definitely seams to have more range at both the top and bottom over the nuvinci; and you can use the calculators to confirm this.

 

[CharlieMK]

It's only becoming more confusing . I have the opportunity to test drive a Supercharger HS Nuvinci, and a Homage HS Rohloff. However, according to the brochure, the Homage has a much higher gear range compared to the Supercharger. So I guess that's not going to be a representative test.

 

[Deleted member 18083]

I have the opportunity to test drive a Supercharger HS Nuvinci, and a Homage HS Rohloff.

Charlie ...

What a frightful dilemma to be in. It's a tough life sometimes.

Seriously, the figures I've just checked on R&M's US website indicate a difference in highest gearing that is negligible. The Rohloff with a greater gearing range, has a genuine granny gear (less than 2 metres), but that might not be necessary on an ebike with a CX motor.

On a personal note: I'm dreaming of the Homage Rohloff with Fox upgrade but am waiting for the 2019 models (E-14, perhaps?). Until then I have to put up with the frustration of having both a Performance Line CX motor and a Rohloff IGH - but on different bikes. Now that's a problem.

Enjoy your wonderful new ebike when it arrives!

... David