Stromer ST2020 concept bike - Gates belt drive and 5 speed integrated gearbox

[Petropoliskhan]

That's why the ebike is slow. A 48v system makes a BIG difference.
None of the speed pedelecs out there are 36volts. It definitely looks Qwick mismarked that ebike in order to make some sales. You should complain and get a full refund.
And for tha price it is a very expensive 36volts ebike ! If all their other performance ebikes are 36volts, then they are just manipulating buyers.
It doesn't even say on the specs website if it's 36 or 48volts. Clearly they've done that on purpose to hide it for unknowledgeable buyers...

Hi Ebiker01,
The problem is finding somewhat objective advice from knowledgeable people who really understand the difference between drive technologies/brands and don't have a vested interest in selling you whatever they're selling.
When I went to the huge bike show in Kortrijk, Belgium a couple of weeks ago there were I would say at least 100 bike manufacturers and only 3 or 4 that offered a sporty 45km/h- 28Mph, rear hub drive model. ALL of the others were Bosch, Brose, Yamaha or Shimano midrives. Qwic and Kettler were apparently the only ones offering a choice.
Qwic , has mid ( Brose ) and rear drive (TDCM) models. Kettler mid (Bosch) and rear (Alber Neodrive).
When you speak to a "specialist" sales person their system is always the best... at everything and the competition sucks.
The bike shows are huge showrooms with no genuine ability to test the product out on the open road in real world situation.
When you go to a Bike shop I feel like they're a little annoyed if you want to borrow a demo bike for a real test. Many times ,what they call a test is little more than a ride around the block or the parking lot. And that's testing 1 bike. Let alone several models. They act like they're doing you a favor and don't seem to understand why their sales pitch isn't enough to convince you. And if you challenge them with info you've gotten from forums like this they look a you ,best case puzzled, worst case as a nuisance or pretentious snob... And if it turns out you don't buy what you tested because it wasn't what you wanted. You are burned.The ebike market is booming and they're very busy,they have job do to which I understand but it is frustrating for someone who wants to understand not believe....
When I bought the Qwic I thought I had the relevant info ( I was wrong) which seemed to be far more than what the very nice and helpful sales guy knew. They were the only store in Brussels to carry these bikes and were more than happy to sell an expensive bike to someone who seemed convinced.
I am certain no has ever argued with them the necessity of 48v VS 36v or controller amperage. No one forced me to buy and order this model. If you look at brochures from Trek, Specialized, Giant,Cube, Kalkhoff, Riese & Mueller you'll see that they all have vague language and marketing bullsh...t that protects them from:
"I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE MANAGER"- "REFUND KARENS. So I guess I have to take responsibility for my ignorance and do my homework better next time. Yes they're vague on purpose but I don't think there's anything I can do about it. Many people on this very forum have had issues with their expensive Stromer bikes.
Very few have had full refunds because Stromer failed to mention in their marketing that the bikes are very complex and sometimes subject to expensive breakdowns .
After spending hours reading threads debating the merits of this or that tech in this forum, I can safely say that you guys go waaaaayyyy deeper and granular than 99,9% of people riding any kind of ebike . When I tell my friends and colleagues that my bike isn't fast enough they think i am crazy!
There are a couple of really interesting forums in german , dutch or swiss german that I don't understand so I have to resort to pestering my american, swiss, polish friends on this site to get answers

Thank you all very much for reading!

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Let's come back to the topic:

Stromer ST2020 concept bike - Gates belt drive and 5 speed integrated gearbox


Last year announced as a "concept bike". Today the company unveiled, it will become the new ST2! At the time, neither date nor pricing is given.

Additionally, the myStromer AG stated: "Freudig blickt man dem auf dem Markt erkennbaren Revival des Hinterradantriebs entgegen, denn schliesslich belebt Konkurrenz das Geschäft."

With other words, they are happy to see the gearless hub drive has a revival. Also, they welcome the new competitors.


View attachment 45093

Hi Bluecat,
I saw this up close at the Velofollies Bike show in Kortrijk, Belgium a few weeks ago


When I spoke to the Stromer representative , he said this model would slot between the new ST1 & the ST3. Therefore logical ST2.
Motor power (500W nominal) same as ST1 with Sturmey Archer 5 speed internal gear hub for a comfortable ride. As Bluecat said this is only a prototype they haven't come up with the right compromise ( 5 speed not enough range???) sportiness vs comfort.
It is interesting to see that Stromer is also jumping on the Gates carbon belt band wagon. It remains to be seen which type of gear will succeed. (Pinion anybody????).
Apparently still no suspension fork...

 

[Ebiker01]

it is frustrating for someone who wants to understand not believe....

Very nicely said. I want to mention that i've started 3-4 years ago with a used 36volt , 416wh ebike -BH evo city wave 2015. It took me abut an year to slowly learn most of the ebike knowledge and also to know about fixing the issues if they arise. I know maybe 85% or 90% and learning every day still. After my learning curve , i made the used 36v into a studded tire winter ebike and bought a proper 28mph 48volts one.


Pics-That's the Nitro on a short ride. Unfortunetly is discontinued. When i bought mine i decided between an ST1x and this. Now , someone has very few choices.
Now, there are 2-3 proper IGH pedelecs available in US (STROMER , BH NITRO , SMARTMOTION PACER GT). The others are trash or they break down in the middle of nowhere.
In Eu there's few other choices(Klever, MTB, others ?)

If Stromer does it right in near future(carbon fiber or a titanium model) , front suspension, fast 10amp charger , an off rode mode for 33-35mph riding , fix the previous issues some customers have had, they may have a huge market in US.
A titanium frame Stromer , under 51lbs, would certainly make ebiker01 be a customer also.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Very nicely said. I want to mention that i've started 3-4 years ago with a used 36volt , 416wh ebike -BH evo city wave 2015. It took me abut an year to slowly learn most of the ebike knowledge and also to know about fixing the issues if they arise. I know maybe 85% or 90% and learning every day still. After my learning curve , i made the used 36v into a studded tire winter ebike and bought a proper 28mph 48volts one.


Pics-That's the Nitro on a short ride. Unfortunetly is discontinued. When i bought mine i decided between an ST1x and this. Now , someone has very few choices.
Now, there are 2-3 proper IGH pedelecs available in US (STROMER , BH NITRO , SMARTMOTION PACER GT). The others are trash or they break down in the middle of nowhere.
In Eu there's few other choices(Klever, MTB, others ?)

If Stromer does it right in near future(carbon fiber or a titanium model) , front suspension, fast 10amp charger , an off rode mode for 335whiton street apt 33-35mph riding , fix the previous issues some customers have had, they may have a huge market in US.
A titanium frame Stromer , under 51lbs, would certainly make ebiker01 be a customer also.

Hey Ebike01,
Thank you for kind comment.
Nice wheels ,too bad it isn't available anymore...
I wouldn't bet a lot of $$$ on carbon or titanium frames because the increased price would probably tender them prohibitively expensive. Also , I think that the weight of aluminum is largely offset by the power of the motors and is mostly an issue when not riding the bike or in racing where every gram counts. In my opinion larger capacity/more energy dense batteries is more likely to happen.
I believe that areas of innovation also lie in connectivity ex. Gps, bluetooth ,security ( but not at the expense of riding usability) and transmission tech. ex:
Shimano Di2, carbon belts, Pinion gear box and tire tech.

 

[Johnny]

Very nicely said. I want to mention that i've started 3-4 years ago with a used 36volt , 416wh ebike -BH evo city wave 2015. It took me abut an year to slowly learn most of the ebike knowledge and also to know about fixing the issues if they arise. I know maybe 85% or 90% and learning every day still. After my learning curve , i made the used 36v into a studded tire winter ebike and bought a proper 28mph 48volts one.


Pics-That's the Nitro on a short ride. Unfortunetly is discontinued. When i bought mine i decided between an ST1x and this. ...

I assume you have ridden st1x too, how would you compare Nitro with ST1x in terms of power, smoothness, range? Can you use third party batteries, what would be the widest tire you can fit? Of course is it easy to remove the rear wheel in the case of a flat?

 

[Ebiker01]

have ridden st1x too

I did. The shop unfortunetly in '19 closed down(NYCE wheels) and back then , they did let me ride it. I rememebr i was so undecided just from looking at the 2 differemt ones. During the test rides, i instantly knew , which one i will take home...

I did a nice hill (Quennsborough bridge bike path) Up and down with St1X and it felt very solid, as a very safe tank but not as springy, nervous and easy to carve turns as mine. The big fat tires are a big no/no as they slow it down even further and is hard to maneuver it. I would put 42c Conti's instead.


BH Evo Nitro city

I feel that for my style of riding(50-60% ride in the city, always needing to swerve unexpectedly , plus like i said the Ebike feels much more agile and faster (i've put a double crank with 52t enabling 30-31mph on flats) , the Nitro is a better choice. I have a cycling background and it feels closer to a bike .

I'm about to install a special controller called Foc controller made by Grin Tech, that will make it much faster on hills and accelerating. Very hard to do that do on a St1x or any other Stromer models.


-rear wheel has thru axle, it's easy to take out;

- the way they(BH) programmed the controller and the 4PAS levels (eco/sport/turbo/Nitro) makes it much more responsive and alert if i can say that. Also the Torque sensor sensitivity can be adjusted. It's the same sensor used on St1x but it's built better into the frame then the swiss ebike.

Pas speed levels :

eco: 21-23mph.sport : 23-27mph. turbo : 27mph-max. nitro: just all out instant response.

I use sport mostly and turbo where's lots of traffic. PAS Nitro level when i need a free coffee fix or a big laugh.


Throttle: only 13mph max., it can be modified, but no need as i like pedalling. No throttle on St1x or any Stromer.





STROMER

The advantage of a bigger battery on the ST1x is negated if you carry a 2lb Grin Satiator charger which can charge 100wh xtra in 17minutes @6.2amps. That charging rate is totally okay for the battery.

Now the 2 advantages of ST1x are the ANTI THEFT feature and maybe the bigger battery(814wh, if you need it for a long commute , >30miles). Again providing that all goes well and the ebike is running nicely. Some have had issues much more often then mine's(actually zero issues on mine).

I had 50x tires on it F+R no issues, can take even bigger or studded. I have the Conti's Double fighter, very nice , grippy , fast, great for gravel and no flats in about 1.5k miles so far. Before , it was on Electrak 2.0. Those are great tires as well, but slower and not great for cornering.

3rd party Battery- Very few of this 3k and UP ebikes can use 3rd party batteries.

I'm not bashing Stromer as it can be a great ebike for the right person, esp. for a long commute(30miles or longer) , when you can't wait and stop to charge. And in Ny recently one member had retrieved his Stromer thanks to that security feature. I think 47 out of 50stolen worldwide were retrived !!

In that aspect(battery size and security) they are the only ones out there with a good or a great product(depending on whom you ask).

In terms of reliability , if you don't have some good dealer nearby or have a strong mechatronics knowledge and of course lots of different tools, i would be very carefull getting a Stromer.
I actually would rather get a 2nd hand one that was working impeccably instead of buying a new one and not knowing if it will work or not. You could get a St2/St2S for around 3-4k if you search.

Is hard to decide , take your time, if you can , buy both.

 

[opimax]

How is the throttle modified? Bh

 

[Ebiker01]

How is the throttle modified? Bh

No, is same right now, but for near future project:
- can remove the throttle connection, and install Grin cycle analyst into the controller that will over ride the 13mph limit. And the throttle cable goes into the Grin.

Cycle Analyst V3 - Grin Products - Product Info

The Cycle Analyst display is our first flagship product released in 2006 and now in its 3rd generation. While the hardware design may be showing its age, it still has capabilities and functionalities that are unmatched by modern ebike systems with their pretty colour screens. This device also...

www.ebikes.ca

Cycle Analysts - Ebike Parts - Shop

The <a href="/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html">Cycle Analyst</a> is much more than just an old-looking display and is the central control feature for most of our advanced kits. With some custom throttle wiring you can also use it (via the Stand Alone or High Current models) to...

www.ebikes.ca

 

[Johnny]

I did. The shop unfortunetly in '19 closed down(NYCE wheels) and back then they let me ride it. I did a nice hill (Quennsborough bridge bike path) Up and down and it felt as a very safe tank but not as springy, nervous and easy to carve turns as mine.


BH Evo Nitro city

I feel that for my style of riding(50-60% ride in the city, always needing to swerve unexpectedly , plus like i said the Ebike feels much more agile and faster (i've put a double crank with 52t enabling 30-31mph on flats) , the Nitro is a better choice. I have a cycling background and it feels closer to a bike .

I'm about to install a special controller called Foc controller made by Grin Tech, that will make it much faster on hills and accelerating. Very hard to do that do on a St1x or any other Stromer models.


-rear wheel has thru axle, it's easy to take out;

- the way they(BH) programmed the controller and the 4PAS levels (eco/sport/turbo/Nitro) makes it much more responsive and alert if you can say that.

Pas speed levels :

eco: 21-23mph.sport : 23-27mph. turbo : 27mph-max. nitro: just all out instant response.

I use sport mostly and turbo where's lots of traffic. PAS Nitro level when i need a free coffee fix or a big laugh.


Throttle: only 13mph max., it can be modified, but no need as i like pedalling. No throttle on St1x or any Stromer.





STROMER

The advantage of a bigger battery on the ST1x is negated if you carry a 2lb Grin Satiator charger which can charge 100wh xtra in 17minutes @6.2amps. That charging rate is totally okay for the battery.

Now the 2 advantages of ST1x are the ANTI THEFT feature and maybe the bigger battery(814wh, if you need it for a long commute , >30miles). Again providing that all goes well and the ebike is running nicely. Some have had issues much more often then mine's(actually zero issues on mine).

I had 50x tires on it F+R no issues, can take even bigger or studded. I have the Conti's Double fighter, very nice , grippy , fast, great for gravel and no flats in about 1.5k miles so far. Before , it was on Electrak 2.0. Those are great tires as well, but slower and not great for cornering.

3rd party Battery- Very few of this 3k and UP ebikes can use 3rd party batteries.

I'm not bashing Stromer as it can be a great ebike for the right person, esp. for a long commute(30miles or longer) , when you can't wait and stop to charge. And in Ny recently one member had retrieved his Stromer thanks to that security feature. I think 47 out of 50stolen worldwide were retrived !!

In that aspect(battery size and security) they are the only ones out there with a good or a great product(depending on whom you ask).

Is hard to decide , take your time, if you can , buy both.

Thanks for the detailed response it is a good read. How much effort do you put yourself to keep those speeds you mention? From your experience it seems the bike is very close to what I have in terms of riding feel/ geometry and components. I agree that Stromer has this planted stable ride which feels a little less bike like.

In terms of range though I thought nitro had 600wh batteries so 30 miles seem a little on the low side (at what support level / speed are you getting that range? ). Also have you tried any mid drives like Bosch, how would you compare?

 

[Ebiker01]

d any mid drives like Bosch

Back then when i was deciding in mid 2018, it wasn't such an avalanche of mid drive ebikes. i actually wanted to buy from a real store and coupled with me wanting to choose only between Stromer\Bh. I actually never rode a mid drive ebike !

The one that is really unique and great with battery usage is the Shimano steps E8000, i've read that delimitimg it can do 35mph+ . Any od those mid drives can be delimited but i would go with Shimano as i was when riding analog bike.

30-35,maybe 38miles for Sport mode (23-25mph) , some hills, with my 10lb rear rack/6-7lb backpack, 170-180lb weight.

25-30miles for Turbo(always above 27mph) , same weights.

Battery will be around 10-15% at end of either one of those. You can do 28mph even at 7-10% !

Not a lot of effort, B/c i have a 52t and only use that ring, as long as keeping some pressure on the pedals+60-75RPM it GOES. Probably i use 52X 14/13/12/11 only.
It had bad gearing(48/38/29?) in the beginning , no need for a triple crank. With 48t was too much spinning but felt even faster at 0-20mph. But again needed to pedal...
Stromer comes stock with single 52t or 48t i think.


Ps- We totally hijacked this thread...we should move the discussion elsewhere if they complain.

 

[Johnny]

I came across these kits, TDCM igh kit.

Is this prototype just using this kit?

 

[bluecat]

Is this prototype just using this kit?

From my pictures, you know, the motor looks different and it's name-sticker is different. Stromer build their own controller and run their own firmware.

But like in the kit, it's a Sturmey Archer. I expect, Stromer asked TDCM to build the prototype based on the ST2-motor with the capability for the Sturmey Archer.

 

[17Stratton]

From my pictures, you know, the motor looks different and it's name-sticker is different. Stromer build their own controller and run their own firmware.

But like in the kit, it's a Sturmey Archer. I expect, Stromer asked TDCM to build the prototype based on the ST2-motor with the capability for the Sturmey Archer.

Hi Bluecat, any inside information on when the successor to the ST5 will be announced?

 

[Mazlow]

Hi Bluecat, any inside information on when the successor to the ST5 will be announced?

As much as I would love to see how they're pushing the art and technology, I can't say it makes sense since their only competition for the new flagship would be the ST5. It is literally the only bike in its category (it terms of its' collective features/performance). Let them work out the kinks with the new ST2. What I would love to see is a category of eBike that can keep up with inner-city traffic (60-65km/h) without a throttle. I've read that the Pinion 18 is able to achieve 55ish km/h at around 100rpm. And they've already done something similar with the Stromer Solar Impulse a few years ago (70km/h top speed!).

 

[pmcdonald]

You'll be doing your mortality probability a favour if you start thinking (electric) scooter or motorbike at thos speeds.

The thought of mixing it up with motor vehicles at 60 km/h with so little rubber on the road and drivers not expecting you to be there or move so quickly makes me wince!

 

[Mazlow]

You'll be doing your mortality probability a favour if you start thinking (electric) scooter or motorbike at thos speeds.

The thought of mixing it up with motor vehicles at 60 km/h with so little rubber on the road and drivers not expecting you to be there or move so quickly makes me wince!

Agreed, which is why I think taking a road test and having a license/insurance to ride such a vehicle would be mandatory. There is an entire culture of crotch rockets that far exceed speed limits but we trust those people to be responsible with such great power. And you can certainly design something faster than S-Pedelecs, but safer than mopeds/motorcycles.

Given that, capping what an e-bike is capable of is very myopic. I don't want to give up pedaling and the buttery smooth response of the torque sensors Stromer uses, but I would love to be able to achieve higher speeds when I have to use the roads. You could argue that not having to get pushed into the gutters while riding on the street would prove to be safer given all the trash that gets pushed against the curb.

The closest thing that I've seen to this nebulous catagory of ebike is the Onyx RCR:

RCR - 72V

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www.onyxmotorbikes.com

 

[bluecat]

What I would love to see is a category of eBike that can keep up with inner-city traffic (60-65km/h) without a throttle. I've read that the Pinion 18 is able to achieve 55ish km/h at around 100rpm. And they've already done something similar with the Stromer Solar Impulse a few years ago (70km/h top speed!).

I've taken this picture of the famous solar assisted sailing plane on a Swiss Air Force base. The runway is 3250m long. Enough to accelerate to extreme bike speed - and also enough to do a full braking in a save way. In the most cases, you don't have such a long runway - but all others on the road (trucks, cars, motorcycles...) can stop in much less distance than a bicycle.

 

[bluecat]

Finally, I could do a short test ride!

Despite only having 5 gears, riding is fun and let feel the typical power of a stromer. Changing the gear upwards under load was possible as well as shifting when already stopped. Instead of the microshift shown in my pictures, the gripshift-like Surmey Archer Rotary 5 Speed Twist Shifter is installed.

 

[bluecat]

As usual from Stromer, a Launch Edition will be the first available new ST2.

It will contain these two bags for the rear rack. I expect, a bigger battery than the basic ST2 and this special coloring.

 

[e-boy]

When does this launch in USA and price ?