Stromer ST2020 concept bike - Gates belt drive and 5 speed integrated gearbox

[Petropoliskhan]

My last ordinary bicycle before I bought a Stromer was a MTB Cycletech. It was a commuter bike like the Stromer – and also like Stromer, MTB Cycletech was renowned to build elegant and functional bikes in one. Meanwhile, Butch Gaudy has left the company, but I was convinced, they learned from him how to design bikes which bring functionality and elegance together. Today I know I was wrong.

The elegance of the frame of the “Code” might blind the spectator. As the frame is the sole part of a bicycle which is made by the bicycle-manufacturer, it should be perfect – especially, when the build a new bike from scratch.

The battery handling should be as easy as taking out the cabin case from the trunk. 43km is the average daily commute of a Stromer. With the 650Wh battery and the 700W motor, the “Code” needs to be recharged every day. Few might have a private garage with electricity; some will have a bike shelter or a bike room wherein they can bring electricity with a reasonable effort.

Several users have to dismount the battery for charging in their flat. At a nice sunny evening this will be practical. But commuting is not limited to the summer. It might rain, being dark, the bike wet and dirty or even icy. Now, the removal of the battery becomes annoying.

Then, the winter approaches. Temperature can fall below 0ºC. The battery will allow the ride home even when the bike was outside in the cold the whole day. But never ever charging! Nothing will damage the battery quicker than charging at low temperature.

Therefore, the BMS (in a Stormer battery) will not allow charging as long as the battery temperature is below 0ºC. There is no other way than bring the battery into the warm flat. In a garage it will be frost-proof, but still too cold.

I see the following options to overcome this hurdle:

• Ignore the degradation of the battery, buy earlier a new one
• Do not ride in winter
• Install heating devices where your “Code” stays overnight

With this in mind, it becomes clear, why the battery handling should be at least as easy as on a Stromer. The more complicated handling which MTB Cycletech implanted on their “Code” is well known in the eMTB sector. But mountain biking is leisure, only occasional during the nice weather season. In this field, such construction is acceptable.

I mention this not only because of the better solution of the competitors but also to create awareness what must be observe if someone tends to buy a commuter ebike. I’ll come back on the other issues later.

Watch the video of the keyless battery handling: First you see, the eject button is locked (like when the bike is off or in standby). Then the lock is released by the display-button. Pushing eject, the battery door opens and the battery can be taken at its handle.

Hi Bluecat,
Thank you for your response.
Alright I agree that the placement of the battery is not optimal could even be somewhat of a nuisance when ejecting it for charging. However I do like the clean appearance of it and i have an indoor garage where i can charge the battery at above zero temperature on the bike. I concede that the bluetooth battery ejection thing is slick, looks cool but is also probably more prone to breakdown than regular key and adds cost for marginal benefit.
Looking forward to the rest of your comments.

Your turn

 

[bluecat]

You raised three new topics, so I will answer them first.

i have an indoor garage where i can charge the battery at above zero temperature on the bike.

Obviously, you live in a privileged situation – but as you’re struggling with the 10% price gap between the "Code" and the more professional ST3, you’re also cost sensitive. My I bring your attention to the all-new ST1? With the savings, you may buy the personal equipment for the 45-league, let the bike shop attach the M99pro and have still money left for a bigger battery.

The design of the frame is well done by MTB Cycletech. With the bold downtube, the silhoutte looks similar to a Stromer. But the handlebar with the cables like laundry lines and the chunky display in the middle can be called everything but clean.

Here you see the limitations of a simple bike manufacturer. While the frame is full under control of the factory, the handlebar is far out of range: They must take what the suppliers offer. First-time users may believe, playing with the display while riding is common sense. The Stromer display is locked during the ride, guess why J

There is no Bluetooth and no other wireless thing involved in opening the battery door! It’s just simply pressing a button on the display. In comparison with key and lock, this is a very robust and reliable process. Unauthorized people cannot activate the display, so the battery is also safe when the Stromer is parked.

Over the years, we had several request for a new key (due to broken or lost key) at stromerforum.ch but none because of the keyless system.

The overall goal is making commuting with a Stromer simpler than if you use a car.

The cockpit of the ST5 is the leading example, how a clean cockpit looks like. For those who want their smartphone as GPS, there is a phone holder under the label cap. Furthermore, there is a USB plug for the power supply of the phone:

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Hi Bluecat,
I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote earlier. As I mentioned earlier I have tested the new ST1 . It's a fine bike, with the keyless smartlock bluetooth thing
The ST1(500Wh) has has smaller battery than the code 650wH!.
You're right the cockpit of the ST5 is a beautiful thing to behold and I imagine that's partly why it costs so much. Of course I would like a clean look like that on the handlebars of the Code 45 but I guess it's not what matters the most to me.
Sometimes it is wise to either make your components if they are well made, sometimes it may be smarter to source it from another manufacturer that does it better/ more reliably . Example: wire harnesses, torque sensor cables, displays etc... I agree it's probably smart to lock the display for certain operations but I think some operations should be available while riding. The touchscreen placement on the Stromers require you to take your eyes of the road to see what you are doing.
All other manufacturers that I know of, put the controls and display on the handlebars where they can be reached without taking ones hands off the handlebars and put the display there too .SAFER!!!
What if you loose your phone? No bluetooth! What if you loose the keys to your lock? Yes loosing your key could happen. I have a second key @ home.
Look I would love to be able to afford ab ST5 . In my opinion you could legitimately call it King of Speed commuter bikes. Fastest , most powerful, badass look BUT it is very expensive and has been known to have some serious issues. I already commute with a Qwic RD11s which is nice and fun but clearly inferior to the ST3- ST5 . A step up or two would be something like :MTB Cycletech Code 45, Kettler Velossi 2.0, Klever-mobiltiy X-speed Pinion offer what I believe to be the future in terms of quality , power, reliability and price.
Your insistence on defending Stromer without ever acknowledging any problems or recognizing the qualities of other models/manufacturers seems very partial and less than openminded.

Still looking forward to hearing your arguments and credit to you for putting up that beautiful picture of my hopefully future blue Code 45
Your turn

 

[bluecat]

Hi Bluecat,
I think you may have misunderstood what I wrote earlier. As I mentioned earlier I have tested the new ST1 .

I came back to the all-new ST1 as you did not made comments on the different riding feeling of these three Stromer. All have different steering angles, the old ST1x even different wheelbase. High Speed riders tend to complain about the ST1’s geometry, those who prefer a slower “cruise”-style do not. Furthermore, I mentioned the significant lower price of the ST1 vs. the “Code”. This will allow you to buy the 983Wh battery with 1½ times of the capacity of the “code” battery.

What if you loose your phone? No bluetooth! What if you loose the keys to your lock? Yes loosing your key could happen. I have a second key @ home.

Once again: A Stromer rider has not to keep a second key in a safe place at home. To open the battery door, no Bluetooth, no mobile phone, no wireless, no phone- or data connection is needed.

It seems, you prefer the way it was in the stone age of the electric bicycles. It’s the same with the mobile telephones: With a contemporary phone, you can take pictures, browse the internet, watching movies and more. But if you only want to make phone calls and sending SMS, a much simpler device will fit.

Fair enough, but please accept the smartphones are playing in a higher league.


We have called this the Nokia Knochen, with endless battery life...

 

[Petropoliskhan]

I came back to the all-new ST1 as you did not made comments on the different riding feeling of these three Stromer. All have different steering angles, the old ST1x even different wheelbase. High Speed riders tend to complain about the ST1’s geometry, those who prefer a slower “cruise”-style do not. Furthermore, I mentioned the significant lower price of the ST1 vs. the “Code”. This will allow you to buy the 983Wh battery with 1½ times of the capacity of the “code” battery.



Once again: A Stromer rider has not to keep a second key in a safe place at home. To open the battery door, no Bluetooth, no mobile phone, no wireless, no phone- or data connection is needed.

It seems, you prefer the way it was in the stone age of the electric bicycles. It’s the same with the mobile telephones: With a contemporary phone, you can take pictures, browse the internet, watching movies and more. But if you only want to make phone calls and sending SMS, a much simpler device will fit.

Fair enough, but please accept the smartphones are playing in a higher league.


We have called this the Nokia Knochen, with endless battery life...
View attachment 44848

Hahaha very funny...I was naively hoping to have an interesting conversation with someone who’s passionate about fast commuter bikes in general. You obviously are only interested in lobbying for one brand ( maybe ebiker01 is right about your being paid. He also is weirdly fanatical about his beloved BH bikes but in fairness has recently been wiling to concede that there are other fun/good bikes out there).
I’ll use your analogy so you understand a little better! The IPhone is a great phone. Beautiful, well made, expensive etc... The Samsung Galaxy series are also high end beautiful ,well made phones. Same thing with Mercedes vs BMW, Ferrari vs Porsche. Get it??????
AS mentioned earlier I have ridden the ST1x and the new ST1 and the ST3.
I prefer the sporty geometry of the ST1x over the more comfort "cruiser" geometry of the new ST. However,even tough the ST1x was fun , agile it lacked an indispensable (for a fast commuter bike) suspension fork and seat post given the poor quality of the roads on my commute. ( I live in Belgium and do not have the "privilege" of Swiss quality roads). The ST3 also lacks suspension and is way more expensive. The ST5 is not even an option. BTW I'm sure you're aware that the the 2020 ST5's come with a +1000€ suspension fork as an option for a 10K bike!!!!! Yes it has a large battery with 180 kms range. I do not need that, my commute is 25 kms a day!
My primary focus is on the actual riding experience ie: fast, powerful acceleration, quiet, reliable, comfortable.
I believe that the rear hub ,carbon belt, Pinion central gear box and suspension fork will provide what I am actually looking for at a more reasonable price.

I do not understand why this combo has only been implemented, to my knowledge in American brands

You should check out:

Speed pedelecs - Klever Mobility

Klever speed pedelecs zijn er in 3 verschillende modellen, varierend van een sportieve- een actieve- of een sportieve fietshouding.

www.klever-mobility.com

https://www.kettler-alu-rad.de/de/de/index/bike-detail.html?sku=KF088-ZAPD50_KETTLALU (German language only!)

and finally The MTB Cycletech you spoke of

MTB CYCLETECH

MTB Cycletech - unabhängige Velomanufaktur seit 1984. Perfektion, Qualität und zeitloses Design sind die Leitplanken, Innovation und Pionierleistungen das Resultat.

mtbcycletech.com

The Bluetooth gadgetry is nice when it works but it comes at a price and are only accessories not core to the actual riding experience.


Your turn

 

[Ebiker01]

beloved BH bikes but in fairness has recently been wiling to concede that there are other fun/good bikes out there).

yep, and in EU , specifically Western EU (Austria, Belgium, Switzerland) they do have some brands that are totally inexistent here : Klever(Swiss), Greyp(slovenia) , Mtb (Swiss), M1Spitzer(Germany, in Us has very limited presence). And there are other brands that i don't recall now.

@Petro, What ebike or ebikes do you ride ?

-the Mtb Yak is a very polished, refined, confidence inspiring and lighweight ebike. Smaller battery then the Code man, is greatfor up to a 30-40km(if you are under 75kg) commute with no steep, long hills.

MTB CYCLETECH

MTB Cycletech - unabhängige Velomanufaktur seit 1984. Perfektion, Qualität und zeitloses Design sind die Leitplanken, Innovation und Pionierleistungen das Resultat.

mtbcycletech.com

Is what a Specialized or Trek should be , but they are not.

 

[bluecat]

Klever(Swiss), Greyp(slovenia) , Mtb (Swiss), M1Spitzer(Germany, in Us has very limited presence). ...

Is what a Specialized or Trek should be , but they are not.

Only MTB Cycletech is Swiss, Klever is German, but owned by Kymco, Taiwan.

Greyp, M1 Sporttechnik, Specialized , Trek and many others have only mid drives, so they are out of scope.

If you know a competitor brand to Stromer (Commuter bike, 45km/h street legal, gearless hub drive), why not starting a new thread "Competitors of Stromer"? I'm following the market since years - and the number of possible challengers of Stromer is decreasing. It would be a pleasure to discuss a newcomer (and continue here to talk about the side project from Stromer).

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Only MTB Cycletech is Swiss, Klever is German, but owned by Kymco, Taiwan.

Greyp, M1 Sporttechnik, Specialized , Trek and many others have only mid drives, so they are out of scope.

If you know a competitor brand to Stromer (Commuter bike, 45km/h street legal, gearless hub drive), why not starting a new thread "Competitors of Stromer"? I'm following the market since years - and the number of possible challengers of Stromer is decreasing. It would be a pleasure to discuss a newcomer (and continue here to talk about the side project from Stromer).

Hi

yep, and in EU , specifically Western EU (Austria, Belgium, Switzerland) they do have some brands that are totally inexistent here : Klever(Swiss), Greyp(slovenia) , Mtb (Swiss), M1Spitzer(Germany, in Us has very limited presence). And there are other brands that i don't recall now.

@Petro, What ebike or ebikes do you ride ?

-the Mtb Yak is a very polished, refined, confidence inspiring and lighweight ebike. Smaller battery then the Code man, is greatfor up to a 30-40km(if you are under 75kg) commute with no steep, long hills.

MTB CYCLETECH

MTB Cycletech - unabhängige Velomanufaktur seit 1984. Perfektion, Qualität und zeitloses Design sind die Leitplanken, Innovation und Pionierleistungen das Resultat.

mtbcycletech.com

Is what a Specialized or Trek should be , but they are not.

Hi ebiker01, I have recently bought a QWIC RD11s (dutch manufacturer)

QWIC series Performance - QWIC

The Performance e-bikes are perfect for the ambitious and sporty rider. Daily comfort on your way to work. They are characterized by a powerful engine, high quality components and their exceptional speed, check out our speed bikes! Within the series you can choose between an efficient mid-drive...

qwic.eu

Rear hub motor by taiwanese manufacturer TDCM. 36v, 500W, 50nM torque, 625Wh battery. Suntour magnesium alloy 75 fork, Magura MT5e brakes ,180 mm rotors, Suspension seatpost, Shimano SLX 11 gear set, Schwalbe Marathon GT Tires, Bush+Miller IQ Lights. It is a nice bike. My first commuter Ebike which I bought after trying out the Stromer ST1X and new ST1. I really liked the acceleration and the fact that the suspension was included for almost 900€ less than the ST1X, which left some money for a serious ABUS lock, A ABUS Pedelec 2.0 hemet, Basil paniers and mandatory Insurance.
I really like commuting on my bike but have found that it is underpowered when trying to attain and maintain 45km/h . Going uphill it is virtually impossible to get beyond 30 Km/h which I find disappointing.

The only Stromer rear hub competitors that I know of with the features that I like are the ones I mentioned earlier. I have not seen any BH rear or mid drive bikes at any bike shops in Brussels

Your turn

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Only MTB Cycletech is Swiss, Klever is German, but owned by Kymco, Taiwan.

Greyp, M1 Sporttechnik, Specialized , Trek and many others have only mid drives, so they are out of scope.

If you know a competitor brand to Stromer (Commuter bike, 45km/h street legal, gearless hub drive), why not starting a new thread "Competitors of Stromer"? I'm following the market since years - and the number of possible challengers of Stromer is decreasing. It would be a pleasure to discuss a newcomer (and continue here to talk about the side project from Stromer).

Hey Bluecat, That is precisely what I am trying to do.
There are many fine mid drive bikes from many reputable manufacturers :Trek,Specialized, Riese & Muller, BMC, Cube, Giant, Kalkhoff, Moustachebikes and many others ...
They pretty much offer only Mid drive motors from Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano , Brose etc..
The riding experience is just not the same. Many people in this forum will argue on and on about the merits of Rear vs Mid drive technologies. This is pointless. The only things that should count are what are you trying to do, what YOU like and can you afford it? I like the feel /sensations of rear hub gearless motors. Not interested in mountain bikes or their hill/trail climbing prowess ... So for the purpose of this conversation i'd like to stick to fast commuter bikes.
I should also mention again that I am discussing Euro legal speed pedelecs. Yes I am aware of the Bafang BBHD, Ultra etc.. motors that offer750W, 1000W ,1500W power and truck like amounts of torque. They are not legal on public roads in Europe.

When I bought the Qwic I was misinformed because of all the propaganda, BS marketing , incomplete information on manufacturer websites ...
I naively thought that the "speed", "45 Km/h", "50Nm of torque" stickers would give me ST5 like performance! Sadly this was definitely not the case...
BTW this appears to also be the case with the well known premium mid drive manufacturers mentioned earlier.

Example Class 3 speed pedelecs are often marketed and sold as 45km/h -28Mph bikes. What does that really mean? It means that the top speed is restricted at those speeds. ( Going downhill) it does not mean that the PAS allows you to routinely cruise or climb streets at those speeds.
I am no expert and would welcome any additional explanation or corrections if i am mistaken in my facts
To do this several things need to happen:
You need 48V architecture so the motor does not overheat when climbing or traveling fast.
You need a very powerful motor in excess of 500W. The more the better while staying within your countries regulations. (Stromer ST5 850W (nominal or peak????? but speed limited at 49Km/h and somehow still street legal in Belgium)
A problem I have seen is that there are no rules about advertising Nominal and Peak power ratings which can be very misleading and prove to be disappointing.
You need lots of torque at the wheel ( not diluted by the transmission) to accelerate fast. Rules for consistent torque ratings would be nice so as to be truly informative about performance sensation)
A large battery for range with high current capability.

Apparently the marketing budgets of the Bosches, Yamahas, Shimanos and broses are stifling innovation in the Rear hub market. this is disappointing given that there definitely is a market for this type of propulsion . The success of Stromer in that niche should encourage other manufacturers.
The fact that Stromer is developing a carbon belt / internal gear hub with Strumey Archer clearly demonstrates that these solutions are the future or at very least want customers want.

Glad to discuss further with you and Ebiker01

Your turn

 

[Ebiker01]

I will get back into this in-depth discussion Sunday or Monday.

Just few notes here:
One thing that i want to mention is that the controller plays a big part in the motor speed , responsiveness or acceleration and hill climbing ability.
Most 48v ebikes have a 48v 18amps controller or 15amps. That is not enough. Is another place where this companies don't put quality stuff.
I am purchasing from Grin Tech their own 25-40mps controller which is vastly superior to the rest of what's being used out there on the mass marketed ebikes. Also all S pedelec ebikes should be 52v minimum.

Grin Tech controller:

https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html



What is a field weakening controller (FOC) ?

Field Weakening, what is it?

So far, here's what I "think" I know. If your controller has FW, it raises the top speed with no other changes. You might not have as many amps available when the RPM's rise into the added FW range, but a broader range of RPM's is very useful. Anyone have a link to a website that can explain it...

endless-sphere.com

For the ST5 the controller is also 18amps i assume, therefore it has 850watts peak- multiply 48vx18=864, they wrote 850 even number.
Then, they do software adjustments on the controller to make the motor have lower or higher peak watts . 650watts for St5 , with 850peak.
Does anybody know what controller the ST5 or ST3 is using ??
Another great thing with Grin Tech is their rear hub motor which can be custom made with less copper windings for faster acceleration and speeds.
Oh and their charger , which i do have is a piece of the puzzle. In 35min., at 6.2amps charging rate it loads about 230wh into the battery.
No need for a heavier battery pack, the charger is 2-3lbs. On a 814wh pack like Stromer's it could charge it @8amps. In case of a real 100mile trip.

TDCM is also the supplier for Stromer. They do some modifications to it. To reply to Bluemoon, there are very few choices for a quality rear hub ebike like Stromer(assuming is a reliable one). Klever, MTBcycletech only ? I knew about Klever , learned of MTB in this thread. Inyhink Smartmotion Pacer GT is another one ?
Specialized Turbo from 2013 was a good one , but is out.
When i had purchased mine, i honestly didn't knew the differences between rear/mid drive motor. Now that i know, i'm glad mine has the IGRH. My end choices were : Stromer St1X /BH Nitro city/Smartmotion Pacer GT.
The Smartmotion was too bulky, Stromer not very agile for my city driving needs.

So, in the US RIGHT NOW there are ZERO COMPETITORS for a rear hub ebike like the ST1/3/5. Again, assuming it works nicely and is reliable.
The Juiced CCX is out of the question. Is cheaply made and just an entry level fast ebike.

All this better brands such as: Haibike/R&M/Moustache/Gazelle/Trek/Specialized/Giant/BMC/Yamaha have no IGRH(internal gear rear hub).


That does smells like a conspiracy from the middrive manufacturers. If it was a TQ mid drive , i wouldn't have complain, they are way , way better then Bosch and the others... they use titanium, this company makes motors for Nasa also.

So, that's a problem, with having only middrives. I like to buy a chain every 2/3years or every 15k miles. b/c i know how to pedal smoothly and high cadence(my sports background is cycling-10years/racing, etc...With a middrive need a new chain, cassette every 5-6months. They are cheap, but that is another unneeded bike-shop stop. Also the motors won't last 20k-40k miles like my DAPU or a TDCM. They would need some maintenance.


I've mentioned this brand (Stromer) too many times in this post. I gotta say i'm surprised that BH has no presence in Bruxells. From what i've read there are thousands of unregistered pedelecs there.
They have newer 600wh commuter models for 2020. The BH Atom , Evo Jet Pro and few others. But no Speed pedelec ?
My BH Nitro City does 30/31mph on flat, 70-80rpm , has 52T ring. Once i will mount a GoPro, i can prove it and show it's awesomeness. Is faster then any Stromer b/c is about 7-8lbs lighter and the controller was adjusted by BH for faster acceleration/speeds. Unfortunetly it is discontinued for 2020.
Still, i am modifying it with a Grin motor amd controller and new cells for a 52v pack. Need the 25mph steep hill climbing abilities and 35-37mph max. speeds.

Most likely,in 2-3years batteries will be much smaller and energy dense, the motor maybe lighter using titanium pinions/gears. Time to start all over and sell our old obsolete ebikes.
In US, in the big cities , as ebike safety , speed is your best friend. In EU, people sleep better, they are not as stressed out as here, and also biking is much more common, maybe it's a good thing to have registration/insurance for a 28mph ebike.
Here anything goes...there's many DIY ebikes out there with 5/7/10KW motors !



Well, my short notes promised in the beginning have became a lot longer. Looking foward to read the comments !

 

[Petropoliskhan]

I will get back into this in-depth discussion Sunday or Monday.

Just few notes here:
One thing that i want to mention is that the controller plays a big part in the motor speed , responsiveness or acceleration and hill climbing ability.
Most 48v ebikes have a 48v 18amps controller or 15amps. That is not enough. Is another place where this companies don't put quality stuff.
I am purchasing from Grin Tech their own 25-40mps controller which is vastly superior to the rest of what's being used out there on the mass marketed ebikes. Also all S pedelec ebikes should be 52v minimum.

Grin Tech controller:

https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html



What is a field weakening controller (FOC) ?

Field Weakening, what is it?

So far, here's what I "think" I know. If your controller has FW, it raises the top speed with no other changes. You might not have as many amps available when the RPM's rise into the added FW range, but a broader range of RPM's is very useful. Anyone have a link to a website that can explain it...

endless-sphere.com

For the ST5 the controller is also 18amps i assume, therefore it has 850watts peak- multiply 48vx18=864, they wrote 850 even number.
Then, they do software adjustments on the controller to make the motor have lower or higher peak watts . 650watts for St5 , with 850peak.
Does anybody know what controller the ST5 or ST3 is using ??
Another great thing with Grin Tech is their rear hub motor which can be custom made with less copper windings for faster acceleration and speeds.
Oh and their charger , which i do have is a piece of the puzzle. In 35min., at 6.2amps charging rate it loads about 230wh into the battery.
No need for a heavier battery pack, the charger is 2-3lbs. On a 814wh pack like Stromer's it could charge it @8amps. In case of a real 100mile trip.

TDCM is also the supplier for Stromer. They do some modifications to it. To reply to Bluemoon, there are very few choices for a quality rear hub ebike like Stromer(assuming is a reliable one). Klever, MTBcycletech only ? I knew about Klever , learned of MTB in this thread. Inyhink Smartmotion Pacer GT is another one ?
Specialized Turbo from 2013 was a good one , but is out.
When i had purchased mine, i honestly didn't knew the differences between rear/mid drive motor. Now that i know, i'm glad mine has the IGRH. My end choices were : Stromer St1X /BH Nitro city/Smartmotion Pacer GT.
The Smartmotion was too bulky, Stromer not very agile for my city driving needs.

So, in the US RIGHT NOW there are ZERO COMPETITORS for a rear hub ebike like the ST1/3/5. Again, assuming it works nicely and is reliable.
The Juiced CCX is out of the question. Is cheaply made and just an entry level fast ebike.

All this better brands such as: Haibike/R&M/Moustache/Gazelle/Trek/Specialized/Giant/BMC/Yamaha have no IGRH(internal gear rear hub).


That does smells like a conspiracy from the middrive manufacturers. If it was a TQ mid drive , i wouldn't have complain, they are way , way better then Bosch and the others... they use titanium, this company makes motors for Nasa also.

So, that's a problem, with having only middrives. I like to buy a chain every 2/3years or every 15k miles. b/c i know how to pedal smoothly and high cadence(my sports background is cycling-10years/racing, etc...With a middrive need a new chain, cassette every 5-6months. They are cheap, but that is another unneeded bike-shop stop. Also the motors won't last 20k-40k miles like my DAPU or a TDCM. They would need some maintenance.


I've mentioned this brand (Stromer) too many times in this post. I gotta say i'm surprised that BH has no presence in Bruxells. From what i've read there are thousands of unregistered pedelecs there.
They have newer 600wh commuter models for 2020. The BH Atom , Evo Jet Pro and few others. But no Speed pedelec ?
My BH Nitro City does 30/31mph on flat, 70-80rpm , has 52T ring. Once i will mount a GoPro, i can prove it and show it's awesomeness. Is faster then any Stromer b/c is about 7-8lbs lighter and the controller was adjusted by BH for faster acceleration/speeds. Unfortunetly it is discontinued for 2020.
Still, i am modifying it with a Grin motor amd controller and new cells for a 52v pack. Need the 25mph steep hill climbing abilities and 35-37mph max. speeds.

Most likely,in 2-3years batteries will be much smaller and energy dense, the motor maybe lighter using titanium pinions/gears. Time to start all over and sell our old obsolete ebikes.
In US, in the big cities , as ebike safety , speed is your best friend. In EU, people sleep better, they are not as stressed out as here, and also biking is much more common, maybe it's a good thing to have registration/insurance for a 28mph ebike.
Here anything goes...there's many DIY ebikes out there with 5/7/10KW motors !



Well, my short notes promised in the beginning have became a lot longer. Looking foward to read the comments !

Hi Ebiker01,
Wow... thanks for your "short" response! Lots of interesting info!
The "FOC" stuff is way over my head!!! I'm no engineer...
Ah yes the controller , I had forgotten to mention its importance in determining the speed and acceleration properties of ebikes.
I don't know if it is possible to modify/change the controllers of Stromers, Klever, MTB Cycletech, Kettlers etc, without damaging them and or voiding their warranties.
It is not something that I would dare to attempt by myself.
So the actual power values for the ST5 are 650W nominal and 850W peak? Correct?
Do you have the values for the ST3? Interesting to be able to compare to other models
There appears to be a strong enthusiasm among the do it diy-ers market , and lots of small boutique manufacturers in the US.
You mention Grin tech and i have read a little about GMAC, Crystalite and others which also appear to make components for diy-ers.
Once again ,the problem I am presented with, is the inability to legally use a diy speed pedelec . There simply is no practical way to certify them in Belgium.
Without certification , no insurance. One could say that the likelihood of being controlled by the police is low so why bother with that.
The problems become real serious if I am ever involved in an accident and there is no insurance. So diy 35mph bikes with 1500W motors ,52V, 30 amps controllers are out of the question. Sad day for me

Thank you for your comments ,enjoy what's left of your week-end

 

[Ebiker01]

Rear hub motor by taiwanese manufacturer TDCM. 36v, 500W, 50nM torque

1) The problem is that B/c it is only a 36volts system (motor+battery) , it is sluggish getting up to speed, approaching 25mph or beyond 25mph.
If it were a 48v system, it would have been really good . Just the 48v wheel is a few hundred $. Battery another 7-800$. You could upgrade that and sell the 36volts wheel/bat.
You didn't knew the 36volts system is slower compared to a 48v one ? Otherwise it is a very nicely made ebike !
I would have gone with the MD11, the one with Brose motor, it is definetly a 48volt system.

Q- How do you know that the RD11S is a 36volt system ? It doesn't say anywhere the voltage, i suspect it could be a 48v, but maybe your manual has it as 36v ? TDCM wouldn't make a 500watts motor with 36volts only...
If you take out the battery, it will have a sticker on it that says 36v or 48v . Then we can know for sure what it has.



2)

For St5 In US i've read that the motor is a 650watts one. But if the controller is 18amps, they can stamp whatever wattage makes it compliant, it would still pull 864watts at peak !
That's why it goes 32-33mph on flat roads with some hard pedalling.
The nominal watts in US is definetly 650watts, for EU i don't know what controller they are using. Could be the same one and they just use different stickers on the motor to make it legal in Us.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

1) The problem is that B/c it is only a 36volts system (motor+battery) , it is sluggish getting up to speed, approaching 25mph or beyond 25mph.
If it were a 48v system, it would have been really good . Just the 48v wheel is a few hundred $. Battery another 7-800$. You could upgrade that and sell the 36volts wheel/bat.
You didn't knew the 36volts system is slower compared to a 48v one ? Otherwise it is a very nicely made ebike !
I would have gone with the MD11, the one with Brose motor, it is definetly a 48volt system.

Q- How do you know that the RD11S is a 36volt system ? It doesn't say anywhere the voltage, i suspect it could be a 48v, but maybe your manual has it as 36v ? TDCM wouldn't make a 500watts motor with 36volts only...
If you take out the battery, it will have a sticker on it that says 36v or 48v . Then we can know for sure what it has.



2)

For St5 In US i've read that the motor is a 650watts one. But if the controller is 18amps, they can stamp whatever wattage makes it compliant, it would still pull 864watts at peak !
That's why it goes 32-33mph on flat roads with some hard pedalling.
The nominal watts in US is definetly 650watts, for EU i don't know what controller they are using. Could be the same one and they just use different stickers on the motor to make it legal in Us.

Hi ebiker01,
It i
As you see, it is a 36v battery....
I don’t even know where the controller is or what it looks like...and I would void the warranty and the official road legal certification if I modified the bike.
I wish I had known all this info before buying. I can honestly say that it takes a lot of work to figure out the how , why etc...
Thé Md11 looks nice but not rear drive so I didn’t consider it or try it out.

many thanks for your help

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Hi, it’s me again.
Earlier in the thread I spoke of vague, misleading marketing for the ill informed novice. See the wording on the website
« Unprecedented speed up to 45km/h»
« ...you can achieve great speeds of 40-45 km/h .... »



I saw 50Nm of torque and other verbiage and thought bingo! I had found the Stromer alternative from a reputable Dutch ( where bicycles are everywhere) manufacturer.

What does this mean ? It means that the bikes top speed is restricted to 45km/h-28mph under certain circumstances ( downhill or wind pushing you or very athletic rider). It doesn’t mean you cruise And or achieve /maintain those speeds on flats or close to that when pedaling uphill (. 3-4-5-6% grade of commuter street travel)
The lesson is : one should always be able to read between the lines and attempt to get confirmation from different sources .

your turn

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@Petropoliskhan, sorry for joining the discussion late. You're from Belgium, you want to commute at 45 km/h and you want to be legal. So you are talking about the L1e-b class e-bike. This leaves you with these options:

1. One of several good S-Pedelecs from big brands. Riese & Mueller HS or Specialized Vado 5 or speed Haibikes "S" or Trek Allant+ "S" or Giant speed ebikes come to mind instantly. Their typical feature is a 250 W mid motor. There's at least one S-Pedelec I've heard of with 500 W Yamaha motor, can't recollect the name.

2. A hypothetical 45 km/h restricted, up to 4 kW motor e-bike. I admit I cannot recollect any available in Europe and coming with the EU Certificate of Conformity.

Now, with the (1), you may say these are underpowered. Not really. All these e-bikes have good acceleration, which is important in urban traffic. Acceleration is the outcome of the motor torque. Regarding reaching and maintaining 45 km/h, it is a harder piece of cake. Provided your legs are strong and you are durable, you can make it. The rest of us can maintain 36-38 km/h on such a bike under good conditions and nobody complains. Just ride upwind and the speed drops down. Regarding elevation change, Belgium is flat and when negotiating a flyover you happily do it at 30 km/h. Downwind and from a very gentle slope? I had 47 km/h recently in Warsaw on my Vado 5.

With the (2), you need to name such a bike first.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

@Petropoliskhan, sorry for joining the discussion late. You're from Belgium, you want to commute at 45 km/h and you want to be legal. So you are talking about the L1e-b class e-bike. This leaves you with these options:

1. One of several good S-Pedelecs from big brands. Riese & Mueller HS or Specialized Vado 5 or speed Haibikes "S" or Trek Allant+ "S" or Giant speed ebikes come to mind instantly. Their typical feature is a 250 W mid motor. There's at least one S-Pedelec I've heard of with 500 W Yamaha motor, can't recollect the name.

2. A hypothetical 45 km/h restricted, up to 4 kW motor e-bike. I admit I cannot recollect any available in Europe and coming with the EU Certificate of Conformity.

Now, with the (1), you may say these are underpowered. Not really. All these e-bikes have good acceleration, which is important in urban traffic. Acceleration is the outcome of the motor torque. Regarding reaching and maintaining 45 km/h, it is a harder piece of cake. Provided your legs are strong and you are durable, you can make it. The rest of us can maintain 36-38 km/h on such a bike under good conditions and nobody complains. Just ride upwind and the speed drops down. Regarding elevation change, Belgium is flat and when negotiating a flyover you happily do it at 30 km/h. Downwind and from a very gentle slope? I had 47 km/h recently in Warsaw on my Vado 5.

With the (2), you need to name such a bike first.

Hi , Stefan! Thanks for joining this conversation.
A couple of months ago I very briefly rode a very nice Hnf-Nicolai XD2 equipped with the latest Bosch gen 4 performance Cx speed motor

XD2 Urban

XD2 Urban

www.hnf-nicolai.com

Very nice, high quality but quite different sensation, then immediately after tried Stromer St3 and really liked the acceleration and “push “. It was at a bike show,so not real world conditions but very significant difference in riding . So I decided that that was the type of drive that I would purchase.
With regards to Riese &Mueller Hs . They are beautifully made very high quality bikes and very expensive bikes with the same top speed and climbing speeds ( I am talking about street commuter not Mtb trail) issues I mentioned earlier.
Belgium isn’t quite as flat as the Netherlands. It is hilly around Brussels and on moderate climbs I can reach and maintain 30-35km/h. I don’t pretend to be an athlete. Just someone who wants to beat traffic, get a little exercise and have fun doing it.
(2) Have you checked out the MTB Cycletech code 45, the Kettler Velossi 2.0 or the Klever x-speed? Do you think they could be the legal alternative to the very powerful but legal almighty 10000€ $ Stromer St5.

thanks for your comment!

your turn

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Is Stromer a legal L1e-b? I dare to doubt It is certainly legal in Schweiz...
I'm not looking for a third e-bike yet. If it is, it will be an R&M for sure.
I apologise about my wrong notion of Belgium. I spent most of my time there in Antwerp, and it also was a trip the Netherlands --> Calais by car. So, wrong impression.

 

[Petropoliskhan]

Is Stromer a legal L1e-b? I dare to doubt It is certainly legal in Schweiz...
I'm not looking for a third e-bike yet. If it is, it will be an R&M for sure.
I apologise about my wrong notion of Belgium. I spent most of my time there in Antwerp, and it also was a trip the Netherlands --> Calais by car. So, wrong impression.

Hi again Stefan , no worries about Belgian topography .
Yes the Stromer lineup is legal and quite popular in the north of Belgium.
The Riese &Mueller bikes are clearly,premium,beautiful, solid, high quality but are they truly 45km/h-28mph capable bikes?
Do the Hs versions that are restricted at 45-28 allow you to cruise and climb at those speeds ? Are they as sporty as the rear drive bikes. It seems that their main selling points are stable, rock solid rides and some light trail/off-road capability ( depending on model and tire configurationavailability of integrated dual battery package.
Am I mistaken?

your turn

 

[Ebiker01]

ST5 are 650W nominal and 850W peak?

t is a 36v battery..

That's why the ebike is slow. A 48v system makes a BIG difference.
None of the speed pedelecs out there are 36volts. It definitely looks Qwick mismarked that ebike in order to make some sales. You should complain and get a full refund.
And for tha price it is a very expensive 36volts ebike ! If all their other performance ebikes are 36volts, then they are just manipulating buyers.
It doesn't even say on the specs website if it's 36 or 48volts. Clearly they've done that on purpose to hide it for unknowledgeable buyers...

 

[bluecat]

Let's come back to the topic:

Stromer ST2020 concept bike - Gates belt drive and 5 speed integrated gearbox


Last year announced as a "concept bike". Today the company unveiled, it will become the new ST2! At the time, neither date nor pricing is given.

Additionally, the myStromer AG stated: "Freudig blickt man dem auf dem Markt erkennbaren Revival des Hinterradantriebs entgegen, denn schliesslich belebt Konkurrenz das Geschäft."

With other words, they are happy to see the gearless hub drive has a revival. Also, they welcome the new competitors.