Specialized Turbo Vado SL: An Incredible E-Bike (User Club)

[Stefan Mikes]

Is there anyone here who owns Vado SL AND Creo or has at least done quiet a few miles on both?

I had a long enough ride on a Creo SL E5 on last Saturday to compare (57 km on roads with a single tough climb).

We have a new comment of a new Vado SL owner in our german ebike forum who complains that his Vado SL is so tough (is this the right expression?) to ride compared to non-ebikes.

Do you mean "rigid" or "stiff"? If yes, it is correct. Unmodified Vado SL 4.0 is a rigid e-bike (that's why I have used the Redshift suspension stem and seatpost on it).

He can feel the resistance of the motor/the gearing inside

Totally incorrect Jodi. Vado SL has exactly the same motor as your Creo. It is his illusion. If he insists, tell him to remove the chain from the chainring and rotate the cranks. No resistance. And you often ride your Creo without assistance. What resistance?!

I only know my Creo well and for the Creo this is totally untrue. I did some tours with quite some height meters as well with the Creo without any motor support and with my "organic" gravel bike with 10-11 lbs less. And it felt almost the same for me, it did not feel slower or harder. I did not measure average speed, time or used leg power exactly, surely there will be a small difference due to weight. But the resistance of motor/gearing??? The losses here are somewehere in the per thousand region. Is "our" user dreaming or comparing his Vado with a race bike? Or did he never try a heavy normal ebike without motor? Or does the Vado SL really have more resistance compared to an "organic" city/trekkinig bike than the Creo to an organic race bike? As the extra weight for the elctric drive is the same for Creo und Vado SL, normally the Creo should feel more sluggish as the percentage of overweight to a similar oragnic bike is much higher than the Vado SL's.

Your observations are correct.

But I've heard similar complaints for most ebike drives and Bosch motors. And even if the losses in gearing here may be higher than in the small SL motor, they were never really important for me with several ebikes before SL. In gearing, these bikes are still terrible to ride without motor due to their weight...

People get used to massive assistance of the motor and when they switch the assistance off, they think they feel resistance. But that's because they instantly lost a "competing cyclist" pedalling together with them. An illusion.

 

[jodi2]

Do you mean "rigid" or "stiff"? If yes, it is correct. Unmodified Vado SL 4.0 is a rigid e-bike (that's why I have used the Redshift suspension stem and seatpost on it).

I did not talk about frame or comfort. I meant riding like in chewing-gum, like riding against some rubber-band... ;-)

People get used to massive assistance of the motor and when they switch the assistance off, they think they feel resistance. But that's because they instantly lost a "competing cyclist" pedalling together with them. An illusion.

Yes, that's the main reason on most bikes. My first ebike had a Nuvinci/Envilo N360 rear hub and an early Bosch and even there the resistance of the motor wasn't that terrible, the resistance only of the hub was much higher (which was easy to find out when I tried the same bike with derailleur).
But the guy in our forum here is already riding a Vado SL a few days and only in level 1+2 with 30/60%, where there is no "wall" at 25km/h.
Maybe it's just that he has never tried a heavy normal ebike and still feels the (small) difference to an "organic" bike while we here know the "bad ebikes" and how great SL bikes ride compared to these.
Or something is just wrong with his Vado SL...

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I meant riding like in chewing-gum, like riding against some rubber-band... ;-)

where there is no "wall" at 25km/h.

Now Jodi I perfectly understand what he is talking about, only he cannot understand the phenomenon... The "invisible rubber" is just called air drag

The 25 km/h "wall" does not exist for you, especially on the road e-bike because you are strong. I or your guy feel the "wall" after 25 km/h when the assistance has been switched off. He believes it is the motor drag but I know it is the air drag that becomes the barrier when so much of assistance has been lost!

Let me tell you a story. Once I overtook a road cyclist on my derestricted Vado SL, and that was a 4 km segment, so I needed to stop to take a short rest and wait for the roadie to determine his reaction to my racing. (It was all fine, as the roadie took no offence). There was an MTBer at the bus stop. I was talking with the guy for good several minutes with the motor off, and then we both decided to ride together.

As we started, the guy began disappearing at distance. I went in Turbo mode and no, my Vado SL would not accelerate! Because I forgot to press the derestrictor button... Of course, derestricting Vado SL let me catch up with the MTBer soon.

So I can say: yes, it is a barrier past 25 km/h but it is not the motor drag!

 

[jodi2]

But you have the same air drag on a normal/organic bike as well!?
But maybe you're right, that someone who is slower and not often riding over 25km/h and so mostly using the motor support looses the feeling for riding without support and riding only rarely without motor then blaims the electric drive that it is that hard. I should try an experiment with my wife...
But this guy seemed to be quite fit (fitter than me) and with quite some experience on serveral bike types.
Again, maybe something is just not ok with his Vado SL.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But this guy seemed to be quite fit (fitter than me) and with quite some experience on serveral bike types.

You're riding a road e-bike with far lower air drag.
I can tell you I had far better average speed on the Creo than I could achieve on the Vado SL.

 

[jodi2]

So you think I may feel the electric drive with motor off or over 25km/h as well more "chewing gum/rubber band" on the Vado SL as I would depend more on the motor/ride less time over 25?
Hmm, maybe. But as I said, I did already some tours with motor permanently off but quite some height meters. This means offroad/graveling a very low average speed of maybe 15km/h, far below a race bike tour in the flat and mostly below 25km/h. And it still felt good on the Creo compared to my "organic" bike.

 

[Allan47.7339]

I had a long enough ride on a Creo SL E5 on last Saturday to compare (57 km on roads with a single tough climb).
View attachment 107576

You look like a test pilot with that helmet and goggles. (I ridden with a guy that uses ski goggles to keep his eyes from drying out. It looks odd on a warm day but I works for him.)

@jodi2 I have a Creo and Vado SL and I think the Creo is faster due to the position on the bike. I have not done a technical comparison since I have not ridden the Vado SL since I got the Creo but I am riding the same types of routes between 30 to 50 miles. I think I ride the Creo in the OFF mode more than I did with the Vado SL and I can get a couple of mph higher speed on the flats. I cannot get either one close to the limiter on the flats with the motor power they have.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You look like a test pilot with that helmet and goggles. (I ridden with a guy that uses ski goggles to keep his eyes from drying out. It looks odd on a warm day but I works for him.)

I couldn't wait for such a comment...

@jodi2 I have a Creo and Vado SL and I think the Creo is faster due to the position on the bike. I have not done a technical comparison since I have not ridden the Vado SL since I got the Creo but I am riding the same types of routes between 30 to 50 miles. I think I ride the Creo in the OFF mode more than I did with the Vado SL and I can get a couple of mph higher speed on the flats. I cannot get either one close to the limiter on the flats with the motor power they have.

Agree.

 

[Sefutau2020]

I have a Vado SL 4.0, and this bike rides extremely well and fast...even with the motor off. I love the Vado, and have put roughly a 1,000 miles on it in 2 months. I don't feel any resistance at all....none. Hope this helps.

 

[JeffC57]

@jodi2:
To answer your question, I have owned my Vado SL 5 EQ for 20 months and my Creo CC EVO for 10 months. I feel no motor drive system resistance in either bike whenever I ride them with no assistance. To me with the power off they ride like a non motorized hybrid and road bike respectively.

 

[jodi2]

@jodi2 I have a Creo and Vado SL and I think the Creo is faster due to the position on the bike. I have not done a technical comparison since I have not ridden the Vado SL since I got the Creo but I am riding the same types of routes between 30 to 50 miles. I think I ride the Creo in the OFF mode more than I did with the Vado SL and I can get a couple of mph higher speed on the flats. I cannot get either one close to the limiter on the flats with the motor power they have.

Allan there's no doubt for me, that a Creo is usually faster than a Vado SL, everything else would be very surprising.
My question was, is the Vado SL slower/more "chewing gum" without motor compared to similar "organic" trekking bike than the Creo is to a "organic" race or gravel bike. My opinion is "no", as I know no reason for this, but as I said, I don't know the Vado SL very well. On the contrary I see two reasons, that you may feel more difference between a Creo and similar organic bikes: The percentage of the extra weight for the electric drive is much higher on the Creo than on the Vado SL. Creo maybe +60% to a similar organic bike, Vado SL EQ with a good lock maybe +35% to a similar organic bike.
And the air drag of the Creo's frame is noticeable&measurable for fast race bikers. Not for me and not for gravel, but I've heard it from some fit roadies when they ride long&flat from 35-40km/h on.

 

[Allan47.7339]

Allan there's no doubt for me, that a Creo is usually faster than a Vado SL, everything else would be very surprising.
My question was, is the Vado SL slower/more "chewing gum" without motor compared to similar "organic" trekking bike than the Creo is to a "organic" race or gravel bike. My opinion is "no", as I know no reason for this, but as I said, I don't know the Vado SL very well. On the contrary I see two reasons, that you may feel more difference between a Creo and similar organic bikes: The percentage of the extra weight for the electric drive is much higher on the Creo than on the Vado SL. Creo maybe +60% to a similar organic bike, Vado SL EQ with a good lock maybe +35% to a similar organic bike.
And the air drag of the Creo's frame is noticeable&measurable for fast race bikers. Not for me and not for gravel, but I've heard it from some fit roadies when they ride long&flat from 35-40km/h on.

I don't have a flat bar trekking bike other than the Vado SL 5.0 (or my Turbo S). My Creo is the Expert SL model with carbon wheels but I swapped out the carbon seatpost and saddle for a Kinect and steel rail saddle. I ride as much as possible in power OFF mode on both bikes usually at speeds of 12-14mph (20-23kmh) on the flats same as when I ride my traditional semi-custom gravel/touring steel bike. The Creo is my first carbon frame and even though it's heavier than my steel frame I don't believe it's noticeably slower in the OFF mode. I find the Vado SL is noticeably slower than my steel gravel/touring bike. This may be due to the poor fit of my Vado SL. Contrary to some comments if you are on the boundary between L and XL it does matter and you can't always correct it with parts. I have an XL Vado SL because at the time I purchased it, the dealer did not know when he would get Large frame and it seemed to sort of fit and only later did I regret not waiting for the correct size.

 

[jodi2]

For me it was almost the oppoite. My Orbea Terra was a little bit too small for me as the step to the next size was very big. Also the dealer told my, ALL hist customers about my height ride this frame. And as the larger frame wasn't there at that time, I never tried the larger one.
My Creo was a little bit to big (so I had do put a 20mm shorter stem, 90mm instead of 110). But here I tried both sizes before and felt better on the bigger one.
After a few months I felt much better and more stable on the Creo than on the Terra, where a felt a little bit stuffed and which also has a slightly more aggresive/sportive/nervous geometry&steering. At the end I felt as good&fast on the Creo even with motor-off than on the Terra (which has no motor at all and 10-11 lbs less...).
So maybe your XL is not that bad/L would have been worse...

 

[Allan47.7339]

For me it was almost the oppoite. My Orbea Terra was a little bit too small for me as the step to the next size was very big. Also the dealer told my, ALL hist customers about my height ride this frame. And as the larger frame wasn't there at that time, I never tried the larger one.
My Creo was a little bit to big (so I had do put a 20mm shorter stem, 90mm instead of 110). But here I tried both sizes before and felt better on the bigger one.
After a few months I felt much better and more stable on the Creo than on the Terra, where a felt a little bit stuffed and which also has a slightly more aggresive/sportive/nervous geometry&steering. At the end I felt as good&fast on the Creo even with motor-off than on the Terra (which has no motor at all and 10-11 lbs less...).
So maybe your XL is not that bad/L would have been worse...

No the XL Vado SL is definitely too large for me even though using the height criteria I could go with either one. I assumed I could get it to work well enough by changing bars and stems without making look like a Frankenbike but it led to a hand problem that is only slowly going away. I think jump in sizes between L and XL is greater on the Vado SL than the Creo and I could tell the XL Creo was too large even though it was on sale and the large full price. I am huge fan of professional bike fits and it was fairly easy to get the Creo to the correct settings. Had I started with a large Vado SL I might not have any issues and I would have missed seeing I really needed a Creo. I see a lot of people uncomfortable riding because the bike is the wrong size or adjusted incorrectly. It's one thing to be tired after 100 miles vs too sore to continue after 60 miles.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It's one thing to be tired after 100 miles vs too sore to continue after 60 miles.

It is interesting what you are saying Allan! I ride a Vado SL in size M, and I eventually fitted it to be comfortable for me. I demo rode a Vado SL in size L and was happy with that (only the top tube was a tad too high for me).

Now, I was sore after just 60- km on a Creo SL size M. Is it possible I would feel more comfortable on the size L Creo? (Unfortunately, my LBS has no Creo size L to just try it).

My "gravelized" Vado SL. See how low the handlebar is related to the saddle! It gave me a good fit for frame size M. Perhaps it should be a Large frame instead?

 

[Allan47.7339]

I rode many many years without a bike fit including my longest one day ride of 350 km in 2013. Towards the end of the long ride I could barely sit on the saddle. The next time I did that ride I split it into a 200 km and 150 km to make it "easier". It was worse because the second day I had a sore knee to go with the sore saddle. I finally went to see a sports physical therapist that also does bike fits. I was convinced my saddle was too low but as soon as I was on my bike riding the trainer she said it was almost 50 mm too high and the stem was too long. Mysteriously after a couple of bike fit sessions the sore hands, sore lower back and frequent saddle sores all went away. Prior to that I was convinced I knew how to set up a bike and even give recommendations on fit. Now I never give recommendations on fit but suggest that someone who does more than 20 or 30 km on the bike path is get a professional fit from either a bike shop that does real fits or a sports physical therapist. This is with your bike on a trainer for at least an hour where they watch you pedal, measure the angles and maybe replace some parts. Usually there is a follow up because you need a little riding time afterwards to settle into the new position. I've never done a Specialized Retül fit but maybe the shop you visit does them.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I've never done a Specialized Retül fit but maybe the shop you visit does them.

Yes, Specialized Warsaw offer Retül fit. I only don't know how it is done and whether you need a specific bike to do such a fit.

 

[Allan47.7339]

Yes, Specialized Warsaw offer Retül fit. I only don't know how it is done and whether you need a specific bike to do such a fit.

They put your bike on a trainer like a wahoo and they measure you as you ride. Their system uses sensors to measure and model your fit to make a little more techie. An experienced fitter should be able to get the same results with more basic tools and possibly a little lower cost. I think part of what their system is selling is consistency if you can't find your local best fitter. People assume it's only for elite athletes but it's not true. People will spend hundreds randomly trying new saddles and parts when a fit session can focus down to the right areas.

This is their fit program:

RETÜL

Retül bike fit is a dynamic process that uses 3D motion capture technology. The Retül Vantage system displays rider data in real-time which creates a fast and efficient bike fit process for both the rider and the fitter.

www.retul.com

RETÜL

Meet Reece. He's an avid mountain biker with some big goals for 2021. He heard about Retül fit after starting to develop some issues on the bike and decided to experience the process for himself.

www.retul.com

 

[Stefan Mikes]

They put your bike on a trainer like a wahoo and they measure you as you ride. Their system uses sensors to measure and model your fit to make a little more techie. An experienced fitter should be able to get the same results with more basic tools and possibly a little lower cost. I think part of what their system is selling is consistency if you can't find your local best fitter. People assume it's only for elite athletes but it's not true. People will spend hundreds randomly trying new saddles and parts when a fit session can focus down to the right areas.

This is their fit program:

RETÜL

Retül bike fit is a dynamic process that uses 3D motion capture technology. The Retül Vantage system displays rider data in real-time which creates a fast and efficient bike fit process for both the rider and the fitter.

www.retul.com

RETÜL

Meet Reece. He's an avid mountain biker with some big goals for 2021. He heard about Retül fit after starting to develop some issues on the bike and decided to experience the process for himself.

www.retul.com

Thank you Allan for clarifying things.

The weak part here is "your bike". If they had Creo both size M and L, they could put either of the bikes (and me) on the trainer and could determine which size would be better for me. Unfortunely, they only have sizes M and XL in the store, so such a test could not be made.

P.S. The Retul app in the website tells me I need Creo size M, and it determined my saddle height very accurately. However, I have already ridden Creo size M with proper saddle height and came back from the demo ride disgusted and sore.

 

[jodi2]

Now, I was sore after just 60- km on a Creo SL size M. Is it possible I would feel more comfortable on the size L Creo? (Unfortunately, my LBS has no Creo size L to just try it).

What is your size on the Vado SL? Creo and Vado Sl sizes are not exactly the same. I tried once for some miles a "L" Vado SL and it felt much to small while the Creo in L was accetable for me. But you can't really copy this to size M as Creo comes in six sizes, Vado SL only in four, so the "steps" between each size are different. But less big with the Creo from one size to the next.