Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

PowerMe said:
No one is forced to get an ebike. No one is forced to fund a campaign. It's a choice. It's always been a choice. It doesn't dissolve consumer rights. It's a specific type of funding platform used by a small % of the population. It's not hurting the GNP, it changes nothing with government protection laws.
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Right , no one is forced ... just deceived... and there is no mechanism in place to prevent or even limit this... at least not by IGG it would appear... KS does a bit better... IMHO....
 
PowerMe said:
eBikes are in their infancy. U.S. infrastructure, as discussed many Accell or any ebike manufacturer is up against many realities that affect adoption of ebikes in particular and even outside of that, bikes beyond mere recreation or sport. It is what it is. Worrying about Accell seems strange to me.

Besides that, we're on the Sonders Facts forum. CF will not be taking over the world. CF will not overtake Walmart or anyone else. Sonders, despite what anyone believes, hopes, and dreams, will also not be taking over the world. They are a tiny niche inside of a small niche, playing in a boutique sandbox business platform. Why that reality is hard to accept, I don't know. A lot of angst over a tiny little speck of a bike in what is a billion $ business worldwide.
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I think Accell has a bad business model and may have messed up. You keep saying CF is not Walmart, but Alibaba is bigger than Amazon and Aliexpress is just starting out trying to work into the US market. CF and Aliexpress are two sides of the same coin, making stuff in China.

http://www.wired.com/2014/09/alibaba-already-bigger-facebook-amazon-ibm/

It's interesting that Lectric Cycles, which is all BBSO2, all the time, now has 50 dealers. Now there is a product with a future. The future for the Sondobikes is hard to judge, but at some point you use his cost structure and fit it into the US the best you can.

@EULITTLB

George if I have understood correctly you say Europe is a big loser in this? Why?

The Sondors cheap ebike will be hit with a 15% duty, 20% vat and 48% anti-dumping tax on import.

Not of the cf price but on the $1299 srp. At least on paper.

I think I am correct in stating Ivars will not be taking Europe by storm
Very soon - he has about 4-5000 bikes still to deliver in the U.S. But am beginning to doubt that 6000 bikes to us and 1000-1500 internationally was remotely true.

The cynic in me says agency 2.0 lawsuit is purposeful, it gets Ivars off the hook.

Well, I think a European contributor bears some responsibility. Sondors says he is now shipping.

Accell makes bikes (mostly in Asia, of course) for the US market. I'm talking about their future in the US market. Obviously, the way Europe discourages imports from Asia, they protect companies like Accell. Is that a good thing? The Chinese can make bikes very cheaply. How long can you hold out against that tide? If only Europe had a strong economy, but it doesn't. It has Germany, maybe Britain, if Britain hangs around.

No one has a good number for the bikes that have been shipped. My theory is he will not send too many at once so Customs doesn't see too many at once. Everyone else has had trouble in Europe, other campaigns.

So everyone is lying to the court? A2.0 tried to get IGG to hold money from the campaign, to pay them if they won the lawsuit. They went to court. Sondors said the money was needed to build the bikes. Sondors got the money. Our court system is not a form of theater. You don't make marketing claims disguised as legal process. Courts don't like that. Courts throw people in jail for doing that.
 
I think Accell has a bad business model and may have messed up. You keep saying CF is not Walmart, but Alibaba is bigger than Amazon and Aliexpress is just starting out trying to work into the US market. CF and Aliexpress are two sides of the same coin, making stuff in China.
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What does Accell or their biz model have to do with the Sonders ebike?

I said Walmart and others are not running scared from Sonders or CF and Sonders is ultimately a small fish from a small CF pond, which represent a mere fraction of the total sales.

This is about Sonders, or is supposed to be.
 
PowerMe said:
What does Accell or their biz model have to do with the Sonders ebike?

I said Walmart and others are not running scared from Sonders or CF and Sonders is ultimately a small fish from a small CF pond, which represent a mere fraction of the total sales.

This is about Sonders, or is supposed to be.
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You ask questions and then say the answers don't belong here. Maybe you should start a thread somewhere else??
 
What I posted above, as I'm sure you fully know, was a rhetorical question.
@Ann M. requested that posts be about Sonders. My comments relate to Sonders.

There's lots of room for many discussions about other topics too. I'm sure it's fine if you create your own thread to discuss all those other areas of interest.
 
As of Friday, Walmart, Alibaba, and Amazon are each valued around 230 billion dollars. A CF campaign is sort of like buying on Alibaba, but going through someone, creating a group buy. Sondors is small, but the concept? So someday maybe Aliexpress cuts out the middlemen, IGG and the managers, and just sells you an ebike. So it's Sondors, but it's also a different way to sell. And ultimately they might reach the ebikes Accell sells, which are often made in China.

So, if you want to say it is noise, static, or a one-off, great. I like ebikes. It's too bad they don't figure more in American culture. Sondors may move that along, a little.
 
George S. said:
As of Friday, Walmart, Alibaba, and Amazon are each valued around 230 billion dollars. A CF campaign is sort of like buying on Alibaba, but going through someone, creating a group buy. Sondors is small, but the concept? So someday maybe Aliexpress cuts out the middlemen, IGG and the managers, and just sells you an ebike. So it's Sondors, but it's also a different way to sell. And ultimately they might reach the ebikes Accell sells, which are often made in China.

So, if you want to say it is noise, static, or a one-off, great. I like ebikes. It's too bad they don't figure more in American culture. Sondors may move that along, a little.
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You know you can buy inexpensive ebikes from all those companies already, right?

Besides making the general public more aware of ebike possibilities the only impact the Sondors' bike may have is making ebikes more socially acceptable to the masses. But as was said above, most of those who buy a Sondors would probably not buy a much more expensive bike anyway so the negative impact on higher end sales will be negligible. Sondors may have a positive impact on the higher end though just through improved public awareness.
 
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crowd funding has been used to create thousands of American made and foreign made products. It has zero to do with China or cheap manufacturing other than the occasional orthogonal intersection. Sondors is just an example of a guy who used crowd funding to make thousands of people happy by leveraging his particular expertise in design and Chinese manufacturing.
 
  • Jarrod MillerI picked black/black on April 23rd, paid on Feb 2nd, just notified wont ship till October- Totally screwed me
    8 hrs
  • (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
    Jon DeGooyer    what about the black on yellow and black on black? Both of mine are on the first wave and were said to be in LA no later than end of July...which it is now...I have been emailing Sonders for months and just got a response asking if I paid for shipping...which I did in April and sent them verification of payment...they just went dark again w no answer...please will someone tell me what happened or what is going to happen, I have been patient and not name calling like the rest, I deserve an answer, please? thx so much crossing my fingers for my bikes soon.
 
wa5 said:
If only they'd read the disclaimer...
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But I don't think that would help - people read into things what they want to and tend to filter out things that don't fit their inflated expectations. Some people also have an unrealistic sense of entitlement.

I mean really, when it comes to crowd funding, the default position of people should be that they are lucky to get anything at the end of it let alone something that resembles the original marketing rhetoric.
 
If only they'd read the simple and direct T&Cs they were required to sign before proceeding, where the many limitations and risks were all spelled out in black & white. Heck, if they'd just read 2 or 3 paragraphs, they would have gotten the notion.
 
Isn't today, 8:30am to be exact, the scheduled hearing for Angency 2.0 vs Sondors and co.? Who's up on that...
CF Insider?
 
from IGG comments.
Unfortunately all the bikes will have the same scratches. Sondors did a great job of packing the bikes with a lot of foam and cardboard but they put the bikes Seat and seat post up against the frame and it is scratching them on the right hand side right behind where the seat post goes in. I purchased 5 bikes 3 black and 2 yellow. all 5 had the exact same scratches from the seat post. But other than that the bikes look great. I am happy with them.
 
wa5 said:
from IGG comments.
Unfortunately all the bikes will have the same scratches. Sondors did a great job of packing the bikes with a lot of foam and cardboard but they put the bikes Seat and seat post up against the frame and it is scratching them on the right hand side right behind where the seat post goes in. I purchased 5 bikes 3 black and 2 yellow. all 5 had the exact same scratches from the seat post. But other than that the bikes look great. I am happy with them.
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You should feed that back to the campaign so the 2nd wave isn't scratched. Not that I know anyone in the 2nd wave, mind you ;-)
 
it was on the Indiegogo page, and somebody else had sent a complaint in about it, they should be aware of it
 
wa5 said:
from IGG comments.
Unfortunately all the bikes will have the same scratches. Sondors did a great job of packing the bikes with a lot of foam and cardboard but they put the bikes Seat and seat post up against the frame and it is scratching them on the right hand side right behind where the seat post goes in. I purchased 5 bikes 3 black and 2 yellow. all 5 had the exact same scratches from the seat post. But other than that the bikes look great. I am happy with them.
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I'm happy to report that no scratches on our 2 bikes that were delivered. One bike did have a broken thumb-screw thanks to UPS throwing it off the truck. I really didn't think the driver would throw it with me watching. Anyway, I fixed the thumb-screw and both bikes are great. First $843 bike I've bought. Sure I could have bought anything I wanted, I've got $5,800 wrapped up in mountain and road (non-bikes) but I thought I'd try to support the underdog.
 
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