Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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Credible Hulk
Active Member
I found your questions about "who would do this and why" to be interesting, so I thought of a few replies, depending on who you are and what your stake is in all this. People don't do things without reason, even if it's a reason you aren't aware of.
E-bike aficionados - the e-bike is relatively new outside of China, and e-bike riders around the globe are facing a lot of legislative and public flak for their hobby. It makes sense that someone would not want their hobby (and themselves), to be trashed before the public by the likes of Ivars.
E-bike dealers and repair shops - a dealer would not want their product's reputation, or their business, to be damaged by public perception of the Ivars Dog & Pony Show.
Ivars backers/customers - it's humiliating to realize you just handed a chunk of your money to a professional scam artist, and will probably lose it all with no recourse. Natural instinct is to tell all your friends when you have a bad experience. In customer service it's well-known that every customer who has a bad experience tells at least 10 of their friends, vs. 5 or less for a good experience. In general, many people who get taken in a scam feel the need to warn others.
Ivars' child army of trolls - their foaming-at-the-mouth tactics to silence anyone who dares speak against Ivars, make some people even more determined to speak up, even if it's just to rub the trolls' noses in it. People have an instinctive need to be right, on both sides.
Re someone contacting you without your permission: I have yet to see any evidence of anyone being contacted directly against their will to warn them of Ivars' tricks - but I could be wrong. So far, all I've seen is posts on public pages like IGG, websites, Facebook pages, message boards. And nobody is forcing anyone to read any of those things, so it's not harassment. I deliberately avoid the IGG comments page, for example, because it's been a childish and pointless WWE style wrestling match for months.
@PowerMe, when I am responding I can't help myself thinking you are a "Walk on by" kind of person.... am I right? Nothing to do with me? Why should I get involved?
The reason I don't have a legal issue to pursue with Sondors was because I quickly evaluated articles and specs on a subject I am not strong on to realise the Campaign was based on lies and false claims.
Why does it offend you that some people are passionate about doing what they feel is right? Surely with your attitude we can turn it around and say, what does it matter to you? It doesn't affect you, more fool me or the like-minded if Sondors will make delivery of 7000 bikes estimated May 2015, the bike will perform as stated, he is going to give people refunds based on a shipping price of MUCH LESS and the bikes will perform as stated?
The reason I don't have a legal issue to pursue with Sondors was because I quickly evaluated articles and specs on a subject I am not strong on to realise the Campaign was based on lies and false claims.
Why does it offend you that some people are passionate about doing what they feel is right? Surely with your attitude we can turn it around and say, what does it matter to you? It doesn't affect you, more fool me or the like-minded if Sondors will make delivery of 7000 bikes estimated May 2015, the bike will perform as stated, he is going to give people refunds based on a shipping price of MUCH LESS and the bikes will perform as stated?
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Ivars does not represent the eBike industry in any way, shape or form. He's 1 dude, running a CF campaign, to deliver 1 chinese bike with some kind of electric power. That's it.
Ivars can't do any harm to any LBS or eBike "aficionados." His span of control is to exactly 1 bike -- the 1 he's attempting to export out of China. he didn't create the technology, he doesn't control ebike technology, he has no investment in or control of any local bike shop.
Ivars' backers/customers - their feelings (humiliation or whatever else is proscribed) are their own. No one else is responsible for those feelings or in charge of their feelings.
Ivars' child army of trolls is not even a real group. Ivars doesn't own other people, nor has he organized any such army. Such groups are self-formed based on some kind of shared madness, just like the other side.
Ivars can't do any harm to any LBS or eBike "aficionados." His span of control is to exactly 1 bike -- the 1 he's attempting to export out of China. he didn't create the technology, he doesn't control ebike technology, he has no investment in or control of any local bike shop.
Ivars' backers/customers - their feelings (humiliation or whatever else is proscribed) are their own. No one else is responsible for those feelings or in charge of their feelings.
Ivars' child army of trolls is not even a real group. Ivars doesn't own other people, nor has he organized any such army. Such groups are self-formed based on some kind of shared madness, just like the other side.
Brambor
Well-Known Member
I'm with PowerMe on this one. I have had my time of puzzlement about this thread and the concerted effort of few posters in their anti rhetoric of Sondors. So I am done reiterating what I said before but like PowerMe I sense fishiness in the air and the fact that it is happening on the site that I like to frequent and the fact that it is showing up in my updates keeps me coming to this thread to see what's new.
So, basically I have no love for Sondors, no love for CF, no love for the crappy yellow bike and I do enjoy the group of 4-5 posters and as the entities they represent, I also do not enjoy the fishiness of the focus. It is basically suspicious the same way Sondors campaign is.
So, basically I have no love for Sondors, no love for CF, no love for the crappy yellow bike and I do enjoy the group of 4-5 posters and as the entities they represent, I also do not enjoy the fishiness of the focus. It is basically suspicious the same way Sondors campaign is.
Brambor
Well-Known Member
Eulittlb - I do enjoy your presence.
It's hard to describe the 'fishiness' without taking it to a level that is uncomfortable. I have resorted to not pursue this to that extent because I do not care to defend Sondors.
I would, however, love to see more posts from you and your BMW bikes.
It's hard to describe the 'fishiness' without taking it to a level that is uncomfortable. I have resorted to not pursue this to that extent because I do not care to defend Sondors.
I would, however, love to see more posts from you and your BMW bikes.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
You are not an "investor" nor are you "invested in anything." (you might be emotionally invested, but that is your business) Consumers falsely think they are "saving money" or "investing" when they purchase something, in this case through a pre-sale.
Anyone in "the industry" has the legal grounding to file a lawsuit against Sondors under the Lanham act for causing harm to the industry. Nobody in the industry will file a lawsuit because you won't be able to collect a judgement nor will you be able to cover your costs.
You are meeting fact with emotion;
Did Storm make truthful representations about the Bike? No
Did Storm respond to questions asked by the press? No
Did Storm correct all the false representations he made? No
Has Storm managed the campaign, and maintained a base level of communication regarding his progress or plan? No
Is the IGG message board being professionally managed? No
Did Storm put out a press release in response to the lawsuit? No
What was Storm's response to the lawsuit;
1) There was no contract with Agency 2.0
2) If he paid Agency 2.0 there might not be enough money to produce the bikes.
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Credible Hulk
Active Member
As far as the public's concerned, you're wrong. Most don't even know what an e-bike is. They will, when Ivars' little scheme comes to light and goes viral. And it won't be a favourable light for the ebike industry. There's already a lot of negative public attitude towards ebikers. We're seen as everything from drunken scofflaws who can't get a drivers' license, to a menace on roads, bike trails, and sidewalks. I live in a city that detests ebikes, with a very well-funded and powerful local bicycle lobby group running city council. That group will jump all over any scandal regarding ebikes. So will the local cops.
Last year there was a guy in Nova Scotia. He had one little mom and pop reptile shop where he sold snakes, lizards, etc. He had no control over the reptile pet industry. Then one night he didn't latch the cage of a large python. It got loose and killed two young boys in a neighbouring apartment. Now, across Canada, a year later: widespread hysteria about keeping reptiles. Municipalities are rushing to ban as many reptile and invertebrate species as they can, for no good reason. The industry has taken a HUGE hit, with numerous harmless animals being banned, confiscated, and euthanized. There's always fallout when a tragedy or misstep occurs, with any industry or hobby. All it takes is one irresponsible person - or fraud artist.
There is responsibility - on the part of the con artist who stole those people's money. You could just as easily argue that a thief "isn't responsible" for the fact that their victim is feeling violated or has suffered a loss, so therefore it's all the victim's fault. That doesn't mitigate the fact that the thief stole something and deserves to be punished.
Any number of people cooperating to achieve the same goal (in this case, muzzling anyone who speaks out against their hero Ivars) would be considered a group. Whether or not Ivars himself organized this effort is irrelevant. Perhaps it is shared madness, who knows? The end result is the same.
So much for the new approach of the Sondors Customer Service Team - honestly how can anyone not be highly suspicious about these shenanigans, non-existent communication and BS updates? Aren't alarm bells ringing anywhere else, this is not normal!!!
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
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Credible Hulk
Active Member
A screenshot of that post on Facebook and the comments - would be great ammo for a credit card company's chargeback investigation. Makes it easier to prove that Ivars never had any intention of making, selling or shipping anything to his customers - besides a wagonload of BS, that is. 
stevenast
Well-Known Member
If Sondor's business model actually worked he could definitely take a bite out of LBS.
Picture this - he ships thousands of nice ebikes successfully, for a very low cost. What do you think would happen in that case? He'd get tens of thousands of orders next time. It literally would "change the industry".
What do you think are the chances of that outcome?
stevenast
Well-Known Member
I think you are perhaps advocating ... less of this discussion?
This thread is interesting, is it not? And many if the posts, while sometimes repetitive, are informative and well written. I like reading it...and when I go away for a few hours, I can be pages behind... fun to catch up!
By it's sheer scope, the Sondors campaign is noteworthy ... merits discussion.
To me it smells like fresh air.
Brambor
Well-Known Member
I do have to admit it did improve from previous copy and paste of the same bullet points over and over. Meh. I'm not really complaining right now.
Stuart Shook
New Member
I got excited, I paid my money.... then I kept doing my homework. All Not Good. The first thing I find out is "Storm" is not his name!
Ivars Sondors updates? Not Good. From all the "updates" sent out all we can see is 1/2 of a battery box. Or an injection molding machine spitting out prototypes.
5,000+ bikes need battery boxes, the battery box has 2 halves. Where is the prototype for the other half? Nowhere I've seen.
The funding page now says anything you order will be shipped in October, It used to Say August.... May was gone from print months ago.
How many will end up getting this "cheap" Chinese bike with declining specs for between $694.00 and $894.00 shipped to their door is yet to be seen, if ever.
Ivars Sondors updates? Not Good. From all the "updates" sent out all we can see is 1/2 of a battery box. Or an injection molding machine spitting out prototypes.
5,000+ bikes need battery boxes, the battery box has 2 halves. Where is the prototype for the other half? Nowhere I've seen.
The funding page now says anything you order will be shipped in October, It used to Say August.... May was gone from print months ago.
How many will end up getting this "cheap" Chinese bike with declining specs for between $694.00 and $894.00 shipped to their door is yet to be seen, if ever.
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