Fair point Brambor but to make such an allegation is serious - hiding behind anonymity on a forum it is easy to make allegations so I will continue to give Ss the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise - these photos imo prove nothing
Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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Fair point Brambor but to make such an allegation is serious - hiding behind anonymity on a forum it is easy to make allegations so I will continue to give Ss the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise - these photos imo prove nothing
Brambor
Well-Known Member
The court ruling where he or his company hired some people without paying the headhunting web site does not implicate him as a scam artist. Businesses do this kind of stuff to each other and try to get away with it. But perhaps there is more information to what scams this former co-worker is alluding to.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Of real relevance would be; Whether or not there is a "pattern" or multiple findings of fraud?
Has he failed to pay the IRS, has he failed to pay suppliers, has he failed to pay a judgement?
From what I know one of the press members I listed was aware of the name change, the press at this point in our history is really part of a "marketing engine" so I would assume they too would stonewall.
Agreed. And IF Ivars has changed his ways I will personally fly to Malibu and apologize to him. I hope that does happen. I do not want to wish anybody harm. But it is hard for me to watch this unfold without speaking up.
Well, I do not know how to ask the IRS if he has paid them in the past but if you are resourceful enough look for yourself. Ivars Sondors president of A-ha Toys. Is there a pattern? Ask Fairland Toys ltd in China
Hong Kong Head Office:
Flat B, 11/F., Kapok Industrial Building.,
373 Tokwawan Rd., Kowloon, Hong Kong
Tel: (852) 2333 8430 (4 lines)
Fax: (852) 2765 8188
Email: [email protected]
China Factory:
Cao Le Cun, Xie Gang Town Dongguan City, China
Tel: Line1 (86) 769 8768 9222
Tel: Line 2 (86) 769 8768 9666
Fax: (86) 769 8768 3760
Email: [email protected]
Also, is everybody aware of this article? https://www.yahoo.com/tech/a-500-ebike-not-so-fast-110086504619.html
Again, I hope I am wrong. I just know the track record and you are free to look into it for yourselves. Please prove me wrong.
wa5
Well-Known Member
(QUOTE FROM INDIEGOGO PAGE)
Cullen Gee
25 minutes ago
As one of the earlier funders, I too would like an explanation for the $199.00 shipping cost perk.
csbadger
41 minutes ago
It looks like shipping and Easy Pay Balance have been added to the Perks section. I was hoping that shipping costs would be slashed due to the high volumes? Looks like US shipping at $199 is higher than the guaranteed maximum of $194….what happened?
(END QUOTE INDIEGOGO PAGE)
Well, That's an interesting development....
We have not seen any proof that manufacturing is taking place yet, supporters havn't picked their colour options yet, but they are being hit up for freight already? AND at a rate higher than the promised maximum.. which was going to get lower, with increased sales?.
hmmm.
Cullen Gee
25 minutes ago
As one of the earlier funders, I too would like an explanation for the $199.00 shipping cost perk.
csbadger
41 minutes ago
It looks like shipping and Easy Pay Balance have been added to the Perks section. I was hoping that shipping costs would be slashed due to the high volumes? Looks like US shipping at $199 is higher than the guaranteed maximum of $194….what happened?
(END QUOTE INDIEGOGO PAGE)
Well, That's an interesting development....
We have not seen any proof that manufacturing is taking place yet, supporters havn't picked their colour options yet, but they are being hit up for freight already? AND at a rate higher than the promised maximum.. which was going to get lower, with increased sales?.
hmmm.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
The article posted is factually incorrect. Those purchasing this product will have limited if any remedy since there will be no going concern with which to find recourse with.
Frankly, I had no idea that crowd-funding was so flawed. There are many things that could have been done to provide surety to buyers of this product.
Please note, shipping cost goes down in price as shipping volume goes up. We have stated shipping as the maximum amount in the perk but will be much less.
We will have a better idea of shipping cost based on sales numbers soon. (Still there but now with "in the perk" 27th March 2015)
How will the $194 shipping work – do we get charged less in the end or do we get money back?
We will update shipping information at the end of the campaign, however – with the $194 – it is a cap. The more we sell the lower this figure will become, it will not go up. There is no need to pay for shipping now, we will update you on this with more accurate estimates based on volume. We'll send you a reminder about shipping cost before the end of the campaign, at which point we'll present you with an option to pay the cost. (27th March 2015)
MUCH LESS equates to a $5 increase on the US Shipping charges LOL!!
At one stage the statement was out there on the IGG site that the shipping cost would be MUCH LESS than the rates advertised without the "in the perk bit" - I quoted that statement and said let's wait and see. There was a black and white stated guarantee that the shipping cost would not be more than $194 for US Customers and this would go down as the volume increased and advantages could be gained with volume shipping. Just BS. But there is more to this than that.........
By listing the shipping as a perk then you are not paying for a service, so consumer protection laws do not apply. The worm is starting to turn and this will not be the only surprise in the Sondors Campaign - some people might claim "big deal" it is only another five bucks but the cost of shipping each bike much be much less, they are subsidising the bike assembly (if it happens and hopefully at least) with the shipping perk. If you pay for a shipping service and you do not receive a shipping service you have legal recourse, it is purposeful to list it as a shipping perk imo.
Wake up folks! Even the early pledgers are not getting a deal at $698 - they are waiting months and months for something to arrive with no guarantee whatsoever of performance or quality of manufacture or even assembly, no guarantee on the battery or parts (and referring to a statement in which Storm says there will be a 30 day guarantee doesn't pass for much, just look at what he said about shipping! Is 7500+ bikes not volume enough for a massive shipping discount?!?)
There will be more corners cut, and more surprises as this develops - without evidence of a single bike being manufactured, I mean assembled. (I trust I haven't gone over the same old ground again btw).
@wa5 here is the test - you have to pay your $199 shipping perk to ensure you get the delivery on time - 2 people have paid so far, now this tells me a couple of things a) that there is a deliberate delay excuse built into this model of extracting money from people or b) that the volume of Sondors ebike sales is nowhere near like that indicated or c) both a and b - lets watch the number of shipping perks claimed.
We will have a better idea of shipping cost based on sales numbers soon. (Still there but now with "in the perk" 27th March 2015)
How will the $194 shipping work – do we get charged less in the end or do we get money back?
We will update shipping information at the end of the campaign, however – with the $194 – it is a cap. The more we sell the lower this figure will become, it will not go up. There is no need to pay for shipping now, we will update you on this with more accurate estimates based on volume. We'll send you a reminder about shipping cost before the end of the campaign, at which point we'll present you with an option to pay the cost. (27th March 2015)
MUCH LESS equates to a $5 increase on the US Shipping charges LOL!!
At one stage the statement was out there on the IGG site that the shipping cost would be MUCH LESS than the rates advertised without the "in the perk bit" - I quoted that statement and said let's wait and see. There was a black and white stated guarantee that the shipping cost would not be more than $194 for US Customers and this would go down as the volume increased and advantages could be gained with volume shipping. Just BS. But there is more to this than that.........
By listing the shipping as a perk then you are not paying for a service, so consumer protection laws do not apply. The worm is starting to turn and this will not be the only surprise in the Sondors Campaign - some people might claim "big deal" it is only another five bucks but the cost of shipping each bike much be much less, they are subsidising the bike assembly (if it happens and hopefully at least) with the shipping perk. If you pay for a shipping service and you do not receive a shipping service you have legal recourse, it is purposeful to list it as a shipping perk imo.
Wake up folks! Even the early pledgers are not getting a deal at $698 - they are waiting months and months for something to arrive with no guarantee whatsoever of performance or quality of manufacture or even assembly, no guarantee on the battery or parts (and referring to a statement in which Storm says there will be a 30 day guarantee doesn't pass for much, just look at what he said about shipping! Is 7500+ bikes not volume enough for a massive shipping discount?!?)
There will be more corners cut, and more surprises as this develops - without evidence of a single bike being manufactured, I mean assembled. (I trust I haven't gone over the same old ground again btw).
@wa5 here is the test - you have to pay your $199 shipping perk to ensure you get the delivery on time - 2 people have paid so far, now this tells me a couple of things a) that there is a deliberate delay excuse built into this model of extracting money from people or b) that the volume of Sondors ebike sales is nowhere near like that indicated or c) both a and b - lets watch the number of shipping perks claimed.
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Della Melton
3 hours ago
I just paid my final payment of $250 of the Reserve Now, Pay Later for May delivery.
Made me giggle anyway!
3 hours ago
I just paid my final payment of $250 of the Reserve Now, Pay Later for May delivery.
Made me giggle anyway!
George S.
Well-Known Member
I appreciate your position, and I've considered it very carefully for a couple of days. A lot of people think the endless discussions and the extreme emotions are, well, nuts. I'm not sure what is going on here, but as far as ebikes are concerned, this campaign has pushed a lot of people outside their 'comfort zones'. There is more than just this (one) bike. Sondors set out to show what ebikes cost, the whole Alibaba thing. When he was doing this, early on, I was hanging with Biknut basically, cheering Sondors along. But, it's clear his approach, from IGG to the drive-by, take no prisoners marketing, is very flawed. A lot of this is going to shape 'the industry', whatever that means. It's just not clear how to make value bikes that will let more people in the game.
The question really comes down to Chinese bikes, Alibaba bikes, bikes direct from a factory in China. How will they be sold, how will they 'expose' how existing bikes are really being made? That's fairly explosive stuff. It goes beyond Storm.
As for Court, well, he's willing to let ideas run pretty free. I've had problems posting to the comments on Turbo Bob's site (won't try again), Pete's site (seems OK now), and Endless Sphere (last post about Tesla batteries just disappeared.) I posted a comment on Electricfatbike that was deleted on Wednesday. It's not like Turbo Bob or Pete have had much to say about this campaign. Court has actually tried to figure out what is going on, mostly through YouTube and this forum. "Let's don't say anything" is not a very good way to handle new information. So yeah, it's all ended up over here, and it's certainly been a headache for Court. But you grow by doing the hard things.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Another false representation; shipping was supposed to be at cost with a maximum of 194, now it seems to be the fixed-max price of 194.
Shipping seems to be used to bully the campaign numbers upwards, and perhaps to create a profit margin where there was little or none.
Shipping seems to be used to bully the campaign numbers upwards, and perhaps to create a profit margin where there was little or none.
Last edited:
PoweredUp!
Member
It appears that Sondors is sticking to his shipping pledge of less than $194... Guess his critics will need to find some other bone to pick.
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
This is a great forum and I'm so appreciative to have it.
My point wasn't that the Sonders bike shouldn't be discussed (really, quite the opposite). Facts, scrutiny and due diligence is very valuable as any ebike is being contemplated, and that's a great area of focus and a nice distance from the hype. This bike isn't out yet and hasn't been tested by those who generously do such things for all of us, but eventually the product will be shipped to at least some portion of funders and I assume there will be in-depth reviews created.
My point, which apparently got lost, was I noticed the same complaints were being repeated over and over again and then I realized none of the complaints were going to stop the production or assembly or alter the marketing of the IGG campaign for this bike, and repeating them multiple times isn't going to change this campaign. Maybe it will help change future/other campaigns, but this horse is out of the gate, so to speak.
I will be very interested to see how this all shakes out, how the stats end up, what people's real world experiences are, what kind of range is being reported, how this fat bike compares to other fat bikes, etc, etc. I love stats and looking at facts, please don't think otherwise!
My point wasn't that the Sonders bike shouldn't be discussed (really, quite the opposite). Facts, scrutiny and due diligence is very valuable as any ebike is being contemplated, and that's a great area of focus and a nice distance from the hype. This bike isn't out yet and hasn't been tested by those who generously do such things for all of us, but eventually the product will be shipped to at least some portion of funders and I assume there will be in-depth reviews created.
My point, which apparently got lost, was I noticed the same complaints were being repeated over and over again and then I realized none of the complaints were going to stop the production or assembly or alter the marketing of the IGG campaign for this bike, and repeating them multiple times isn't going to change this campaign. Maybe it will help change future/other campaigns, but this horse is out of the gate, so to speak.
I will be very interested to see how this all shakes out, how the stats end up, what people's real world experiences are, what kind of range is being reported, how this fat bike compares to other fat bikes, etc, etc. I love stats and looking at facts, please don't think otherwise!
FTC Complaint
Active Member
There won't be the financial depth, domestic presence, or responsible party to provide either initial, and at least three years of post-sales support.
Basic things such as a number to call for assembly, a process for handling returns, repairs, replacement of defective batteries, and product liability insurance. Some of the elements which increase the wholesale and retail cost of this product are intentionally omitted. So, that is how it will shake out.
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Well that isn't difficult to find is it? is $194 less than $194 - in a word no - two weeks ago the declaration on the IGG site was that the shipping cost would be much less than $194.
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