Singlespeed, hub drive, torque sensor, under 40 lbs?

[Stefan Mikes]

a Turbo Vado SL with the automatic shifting IGH

Only asking for trouble, that's what I say.
Como SL with the IGH is the heaviest of all SL e-bikes, and it is close to the weight of the full power Como.
FAQ (Enviolo AutomatiQ):
-- Do I need to re-tension the belt after replacing the rear wheel? (YES)
-- Do I need to re-calibrate the IGH after the field repair of the rear wheel? (YES).

I simply cannot get how people could be so blind not to understand the belt/IGH (while maintenance free) is not trouble free...

 

[mschwett]

Only asking for trouble, that's what I say.
Como SL with the IGH is the heaviest of all SL e-bikes, and it is close to the weight of the full power Como.
FAQ (Enviolo AutomatiQ):
-- Do I need to re-tension the belt after replacing the rear wheel? (YES)
-- Do I need to re-calibrate the IGH after the field repair of the rear wheel? (YES).

I simply cannot get how people could be so blind not to understand the belt/IGH (while maintenance free) is not trouble free...

maybe it’s the specialized implementation of it. many, many people use belt+IGH for ultra long trips with no trouble. a close friend of mine rode his belt+rohloff rig the length of north and south america twice, through the worst conditions and limited access to tools and shops, bulletproof. one belt and one oil change in something like 30,000km.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

maybe it’s the specialized implementation of it. many, many people use belt+IGH for ultra long trips with no trouble. a close friend of mine rode his belt+rohloff rig the length of north and south america twice, through the worst conditions and limited access to tools and shops, bulletproof. one belt and one oil change in something like 30,000km.

You mean, a flat tyre does not pertain to the belt/IGH riders?

 

[OrTrek]

Thanks, but I am not interested in a throttle equipped bike, and my understanding is that all of the roadsters come with a throttle now

Actually I believe only the Gravel is now coming with the throttle version. It's my understanding the regular Roadster does not. But you may wish to confirm with Ride1Up.
But that being said I believe you say that Columbia has a max of 250 w. The Roadsters hub motors are 350 w nominal.

 

[mschwett]

You mean, a flat tyre does not pertain to the belt/IGH riders?

serious long distance off road types out here ride tubeless, where rare flats are fixed from the outside in a minute or less.

even on road, i had at least 5x the “flats per mile” with tubes. maximum trouble free bike would probably be a singlespeed belt set up tubeless!

 

[Marquezdl]

Only asking for trouble, that's what I say.
Como SL with the IGH is the heaviest of all SL e-bikes, and it is close to the weight of the full power Como.
FAQ (Enviolo AutomatiQ):
-- Do I need to re-tension the belt after replacing the rear wheel? (YES)
-- Do I need to re-calibrate the IGH after the field repair of the rear wheel? (YES).

I simply cannot get how people could be so blind

serious long distance off road types out here ride tubeless, where rare flats are fixed from the outside in a minute or less.

even on road, i had at least 5x the “flats per mile” with tubes. maximum trouble free bike would probably be a singlespeed belt set up tubeless!

Actually a chain on that singlespeed would definitely be easier…and cheaper

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Actually a chain on that singlespeed would definitely be easier…and cheaper

Marquez, do you fancy yourself climbing in Medellin on a single speed bike? Just put yourself into 8th or 9th gear on the Vado and attempt a steep climb without shifting

 

[Marquezdl]

I started this thread because I would like to have a light, simple, singlespeed ebike. i think that such an ebike with a 250 w motor putting out 40 nm of torque would be workable with a 65-70 gear inch gear ratio. Never know unless I try it!

 

[onlineaddy]

Not a recommendation as I have no experience with the bike or know anything of its motor, but you may dig into the Optibike Argon.

 

[PSm]

why not give the ride1up roadster a try? it’s inexpensive and pretty much meets your specs other than the torque sensor. do the easy no-throttle conversion and maybe the PAS settings are flexible enough to get what you want?

+

 

[McCorby]

FAQ (Enviolo AutomatiQ):

-- Do I need to re-tension the belt after replacing the rear wheel? (YES)
-- Do I need to re-calibrate the IGH after the field repair of the rear wheel? (YES).

I simply cannot get how people could be so blind not to understand the belt/IGH (while maintenance free) is not trouble free...

Both are not necessarily true.

- My Serial 1 rear wheel can be removed and reinstalled without having to adjust belt tension. The tensioning system and its setting is not touched when removing/installing the wheel.

Enviolo equipped removal @ 1:40 and installation @ 3:25

- What kind of rear wheel repair are you referring to? Removing the wheel to repair a flat? If so, then no, the IGH does not have to be recalibrated…... At least not on the Serial 1. I’m guessing you would need to perform a calibration if you removed the auto shifting mechanism from the hub assembly or something similar.

BTW, the calibration procedure takes maybe a minute to perform. Easy peasy! I have only calibrated mine once when I first got the bike just to make sure it was calibrated and to learn how to do it. I noticed no difference in operation after doing so.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Both are not necessarily true.

- My Serial 1 rear wheel can be removed and reinstalled without having to adjust belt tension. The tensioning system and its setting is not touched when removing/installing the wheel.

Enviolo equipped removal @ 1:40 and installation @ 3:25

- What kind of rear wheel repair are you referring to? Removing the wheel to repair a flat? If so, then no, the IGH does not have to be recalibrated…... At least not on the Serial 1. I’m guessing you would need to perform a calibration if you removed the auto shifting mechanism from the hub assembly or something similar.

BTW, the calibration procedure takes maybe a minute to perform. Easy peasy! I have only calibrated mine once when I first got the bike just to make sure it was calibrated and to learn how to do it. I noticed no difference in operation after doing so.

Enviolo AutomatiQ Heavy Duty?

 

[McCorby]

Enviolo AutomatiQ Heavy Duty?

Yes

 

[tkemp]

Grin tech has to different motors. One has a Pas Sensor built in the rear. It is made by Grin Tech . He doesnt put his name on it until it work. Under a 1000 dollars and it will last your lifetime. There is also a five speed rear hub with a torque sensor. You cant go wrong with GrinTech.

Put simply, you can't get there from here. A hub motor with a torque sensor is almost a contradiction in terms. They exist but not as far as I know in conjunction with the rest of your feature set.

Maybe a LeMond Prolog, but your Fixie stipulation throws that out.

A Luna Fixed is vey low cost but its not a hub motor, and I can say having owned one that the nylon gears inside the mid drive are not going to tolerate a 25% grade for long. Gates belt and 3-spd IGH so not far off from a fixie.

For that matter any geared hub is going to be totally out of its league on a 25% grade since hub motors are single-speed by their nature. They suck on hills. You'll be 100% of the power going up a grade like that.

The Babymaker is close... and cheap. But its got a cadence sensor.

If I were going that route I would take my Mavic SSC/Vitus 979 out of storage and put a BBS02 on it. Then dial back the BBS02's power to preserve the stays. I'd say you are looking at a DIY project yourself if you are serious about your feature list, but that torque sensor on a hub motor is going to be fun to source.

gr

 

[OrTrek]

Thanks, but I am not interested in a throttle equipped bike, and my understanding is that all of the roadsters come with a throttle now

FYI - Ride1Up now has the non throttle Gravel on sale for a 100 bucks off ($1145).

 

[Rexlion]

• a torque sensor on a hub drive motor is a laugh, as it works on the on-off principle (it detects if you push the pedal, that's it).

Where did you get this notion? My R1U LMTD has a rear hub motor and torque sensor, and it definitely works. The harder I pedal, the more power it adds. Pedal easy, less power.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Where did you get this notion? My R1U LMTD has a rear hub motor and torque sensor, and it definitely works. The harder I pedal, the more power it adds. Pedal easy, less power.

The torque sensor for a hub-motor only takes how hard you are pushing pedals into account. Stand on the pedals (like road cyclists do to accelerate) and indeed the solution you have mentioned would provide more assistance (but your knees won't thank you!)

A mid-drive motor multiplies the rider's leg input power (not torque alone) into the motor assistance. It takes readouts from two sensors: torque and cadence and recalculates both parameters into pedalling power. It is the measured pedalling power to instruct the controller to deliver more or less juice to the motor:

• Pedal slowly and lightly: little assistance provided (you can make the e-bike crawl among the pedestrians)
• Pedal hard but slowly: the motor will increase the assistance
• Pedal lightly but fast: see above
• Pedal hard and fast: you will get the maximum assistance.

For instance, a rider grinding the cranks at low cadence will get assistance P.
The same rider can be spinning the cranks at twice cadence but exert half of the torque on the cranks to get the same assistance P.

Necessary to mention, properly used gears in the derailleur system provide additional gain by providing variable torque to the rear wheel from the mid-drive motor. You are waiting at the intersection in a low gear. Accelerating is very easy, as the motor + leg power combined is translated to high torque at the rear wheel by the bike gearing. Got at a higher speed? Upshift (reduce the rear wheel torque). That's it.

To summarize: The torque sensor on a hub-drive motor requires you to pedal hard to get more assistance (that's why the throttle is so popular on hub-drives; just to let the rider start from the intersection). A mid-drive motor allows you pedal lightly but fast to get the same assistance as pedalling hard but slowly; the mid-drive motor performance is close to how a traditional bike works. (There are grinders and spinners in bicycle races).

 

[Ben J]

It takes readouts from two sensors: torque and cadence

Nothing to stop a hub motor bike from measuring torque at the bottom bracket and therefore also picking up cadence. The Aventure.2's torque sensor is in the bottom bracket. It just happens to have crummy firmware so it feels much less connected to the bike than a good mid-drive. Although still better than a cadence sensor.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Nothing to stop a hub motor bike from measuring torque at the bottom bracket and therefore also picking up cadence. The Aventure.2's torque sensor is in the bottom bracket. It just happens to have crummy firmware so it feels much less connected to the bike than a good mid-drive. Although still better than a cadence sensor.

I think the "PAS cadence sensor" in hub-drive e-bikes is just an on/off switch: "pedalling/not pedalling". What you actually need to determine the pedalling power is a torque meter and cadence meter, not just sensors. Your Tero X with a mid-drive motor has both, that's why you can see both your pedalling power and cadence on the display.

An interesting fact about the Mahle X20 hub-drive motor system is it reportedly has both torque and cadence sensors. Funnily, the torque sensor there seems to be acting as an on/off switch. X20 e-bikes cannot display the Pedalling Power (or transfer it via ANT+) as there is simple no torque meter in the system. Start pedalling, and the hub-drive motor of X20 simply delivers the full power as set per the assistance level (as the torque sensor has just detected any torque on the cranks).

Someone should show me the Rider's Power and Cadence readouts from their hub-drive motor e-bike.

P.S. Ever wondered why a cadence meter for a traditional bike was very cheap while the power pedal was very expensive?

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

Most rear hub drives are essentially one speed biycles since they do not use the gears on a traditional bicycle to power the bicycle forward.