Shimmy and creak

Reid

Well-Known Member
ANY bike can develop a shimmy. I am sharing my limited experience just in case shimmy ever affects your ride.

Good articles here explain viewpoints on cause and cure.

Well, it happened to be that in the past week my CCS had become shimmy-prone.

I could not ride with hands off the bar at 12mph or more without a progressive, nasty shimmy propagating.

Made no difference if I locked out the fork or not.

Nothing had been recently changed. But a shimmy was now my companion on every ride.

The headstock bearing was free and without any perceptable play.

Bear in mind, my short handle bar, my non-stock Michelin Protek Urban tires, and other factors make my bike different than stock...sort of changing its tuning, so to speak, regarding the shimmy that almost any bike can develop given circumstances.

Yet, I rode many, many miles before without any shimmy.

Shimmy is a self-amplifying positive feedback mechanism. It starts small, so small you cannot notice it. It must be damped, I find, before it can grow larger. The expert articles linked above don't make this simple point: damping the shimmy before it can grow out of control may be important to curing your shimmy, if you ever have such trouble.

My own bike's cure was effected by tightening the headset bearing just a bit, putting a bit of preload on it (normally a bad idea). The resultant friction is not enough to make hands-free riding at all difficult. But it has banished the formerly nasty shimmy entirely.

Many years ago I restored and drove a 1922 Model T Ford as my sole car. It had a perfectly fitted front end, no shake or looseness in any of the various joints. It would shimmy the car to a halt once the car got up to 6mph in a turn, the oscillating feedback of one heavy front wheel getting the other wheel going to shaking too. The shimmy there, like all shimmies, began as something very small. The cure was a bit of damping, in the form of a VW steering damper.

In the case of my bike, a bit of preload headset bearing friction has done the same cure in the simplest way possible.

Again, a shimmy starts out as something very, very small. It requires very little damping to kill it on the spot, the microscopic-level spot, you might say! I don't think this basic point has been made before in the literature you get when Googling bicycle shimmy.
 
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Up the Creak and I don't mean to paddle.

Our Juiced bikes use the ubiquitous Shimano-type square-shoulder spindle, 3-piece bottom brackets good enough for almost every user here.

But mine has developed a creak and a click that comes and goes, just in these past few days.

Checking the bearing by hand, the crank has play; there is a shake in it that proves the cartridge bearing is in failure mode.

I really like to stand on the pedals and crank standing up for stretches at a time. Too bad, that is just the sort of strain that can kill this type of bottom bracket bearing before long. Time to replace it soon.

I don't know if I will replace it with like kind and hope for better luck, or bite hard on a bullet of monetary pain to upgrade to more robust crankset and bearing system. Bearings of the kind we have are very far inboard from the crank arms. The modern systems of outboard or nearly outboard bearing support are actually as old in concept as before 1900! You'd think the outboard bearing concept would have taken good root a hundred years ago, but it didn't.

Should I save for a bottom bracket upgrade? What to get then? Would such a fancy thing be available with a 52T chainring?

(Am out of budget at this time and so if I have to replace soon, I will just go for the same bottom bracket.)
 
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I have had a creak/snap for awhile on my original CC. It usually goes away awhile after a few minutes of riding. I suspect it's the bottom bracket too, but have been unable to do anything since I stripped the crankarm removal threads on the left one. Tried a homemade puller but it won't bulge so I'll probably have to be destructive to get it off. Have a cheap arm on the way to replace already. Hopefully just removing, cleaning, greasing, & reinstalling BB will fix this noise since the BB still feels solid with no noticeable play. Otherwise Shimano squares BB are cheap & highly regarded. Keep in mine I have over 11,000 miles on these components now.

Thought of a total upgrade of new cranks/ BB too, but I couldn't find anything comparable to the stock ones.
 
I have had a creak/snap for awhile on my original CC. It usually goes away awhile after a few minutes of riding. I suspect it's the bottom bracket too, but have been unable to do anything since I stripped the crankarm removal threads on the left one. Tried a homemade puller but it won't bulge so I'll probably have to be destructive to get it off. Have a cheap arm on the way to replace already. Hopefully just removing, cleaning, greasing, & reinstalling BB will fix this noise since the BB still feels solid with no noticeable play. Otherwise Shimano squares BB are cheap & highly regarded. Keep in mine I have over 11,000 miles on these components now.

Thought of a total upgrade of new cranks/ BB too, but I couldn't find anything comparable to the stock ones.
Wow, that is an amazing amount of mileage and your experience shows how long stock parts can last.

Today I used a hypo with a too-blunt/large needle to try to inject some oil into the sealed cartridge and that may help a lot if even a drop got in.

But the play...that is indication of irreverisble mechanical failure. It's going south but just when I don't know. So I will plan to buy a new cartridge soon.

Unlike the old cup and cone bottom brackets of 1900 engineering still found on department store bikes, the cartridge style bottom bracket bearings of our Juiced bikes are not serviceable or even adjustable.

UPDATE: water had worked past the seals, very likely: Pulling the chainring pedal off, the lip of the seal was lifted with a dental probe, enough to get the oil injected. Did this on both sides. Running quiet now. Cannot feel any crunching or bad noises and the play I noticed before is minimal now (maybe it always was) and so, there is hope for more service from this bottom bracket.

Plus: I put a light-bodied synthetic grease over the bearing recess area, a gob on each pedal side, and wound a fuzzy red pipe cleaner around each spindle in that space between crank inside edge and the ball bearing seal, with intent to keep splash water from going into the bearing races.

Old time machinery often used felt seals, oiled or greased, to exclude dirt and discourage water intrusion. The bearing seals of the '20s, for instance, were not rubber (because they did not have oil-resistance synthetic rubber), but leather or felt. Such simple materials as I have here: craft store pipe cleaners, various woven and unwoven piano woolen felts, are useful for improvising bearing shields.

Let's see how she goes now, and for how long! Maybe indefinitely!
 
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https://www.rivbike.com/pages/shimmy-shimmy-coco-bop-shimmy-shimmy-bop
Shimmy. When your bike shakes as you ride.
An inconclusive discussion of speed-wiggle.
It's one of the few Mysteries du Velo to ever halfway stump cycling’s Three Wise Wons—Sheldon Brown, Jobst Brandt, and the Great Greek Jim Papadopolous—at least in the sense that I don’t think they chiseled their explanations of it in granite—is s-s-s-s-shim-m-m-m-m-m-y.
Shimmy is democratic, thank goodness. Every builder I’ve spoken to dreads the topic like Superman dreads kryptonite, because it comes up in one of these variants: (snip, go to the link for the article)

Hundreds of miles now since I put a little pre-load on the headset bearing. No More Shimmy. This posting is not a claim of universal cure, but this is a notice that shimmy may be damped and prevented from propagating while it is at the microscopic level.

Others have found that headset preload often prevents shimmy in many bikes, all the while that the true experts above have not identified the mechanism. Nor have I, other than to state here, that it is positive feedback which starts from a humanly-imperceptible level and repeats and amplifies, because it is energized by the forwarding action of the motor, or the muscle of your own electrical motive power, breeding the oscillation, itself.

The mechanism of prevention of positive feedback propagation, is ever so slight damping, at the time of its beginning, at the resultant of the source, to prevent the shimmy from ever getting out of hand. As hurricanes grow from tiny seeds of atmospheric enablement plus chance, so it is with bicycle shimmy, or wabble, or wobble, or whatever it may be called by our human languages of inadequate words.

If you have yet to experience shimmy in all its horror, great! But if you ever do get a shimmy from your CCS, you very likely can fix it yourself! You will not need to make the headset so stiff that you can't ride at ease with no hands. I ride no-hands without any issue today. And, unlike if I adjust the headset bearing as perfectly free yet without any shake as it was back when the bike shimmied, with a bit of added preload, my bike today for the past hundreds of miles makes no shimmy. It is as stable as it can be.
 
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I did manage to finally get my left crank arm off by cutting down to near the square taper. After that taking off just the left BB cup & reinstalling fixed my snapping noises. The BB did feel dry spinning the spindle, but surprisingly still fairly solid without alot of play so one part I won't have to replace for the time being.

So anyone else gets noises from down there probably has to do with the bottom bracket.
 
It's a good idea to check the axle cones regularly, they will loosen up occasionally, more so powered bikes.
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/shimmy-shimmy-coco-bop-shimmy-shimmy-bop

Hundreds of miles now since I put a little pre-load on the headset bearing. No More Shimmy. This posting is not a claim of universal cure, but this is a notice that shimmy may be damped and prevented from propagating while it is at the microscopic level

It's amazing what a bit of preload adjustment will do for perfomance. :)
 
@Reid I’ve been trying to fix some creaking and clicking that’s driving me nuts! I think some was comimg from the seat post so I took care of that. Then I thought it was the adjustable stem so I bought a fixed 60mm/45 degree and lubed everything. No luck.

Now I’m thinking BB. The weird thing is that the noise is for the most part only when I am peddling, seated, and have my hands (and thus weight) on the bars. This make is HARD to hear where it’s coming from.

So tonight I was peddling around slow, listening for noise with the motor off, and I noticed that my drivetrain isn’t smooth any more and there is some clunkimg going on, like bad bearings?

I’ve only had it for about 6 weeks but have put about 700 miles on it.

Just hoping to get your thoughts. Thanks!
 
@Reid I’ve been trying to fix some creaking and clicking that’s driving me nuts! I think some was comimg from the seat post so I took care of that. Then I thought it was the adjustable stem so I bought a fixed 60mm/45 degree and lubed everything. No luck.

Now I’m thinking BB. The weird thing is that the noise is for the most part only when I am peddling, seated, and have my hands (and thus weight) on the bars. This make is HARD to hear where it’s coming from.

So tonight I was peddling around slow, listening for noise with the motor off, and I noticed that my drivetrain isn’t smooth any more and there is some clunkimg going on, like bad bearings?

I’ve only had it for about 6 weeks but have put about 700 miles on it.

Just hoping to get your thoughts. Thanks!
Cool that you should mention it! I, too, had a strange creak, eventually isolated to be from the bottom bracket.

OIL injected with a hypo syringe into the bottom bracket, past the rubber shield (it is not a perfect seal) killed the creak.

Know that "grease" is merely thickened oil, oil in a thickening, metallic soap. It is OIL that lubes a ball bearing best. It is WATER getting past the so-called seal (it is really just a shield) that ruins the grease and leads to creaks and ball bearing failure.

Getting just a bit of OIL into the BB ball bearing, past the semi-seal, did the trick instantly, the weird sometimes off, often on, creak has never come back.

I wound a big, fuzzy pipe cleaner (you can get them cheap on Amazon or at a crafts store) around the spindle on each side to cover over the rubber bearing shield. Soaked it with heavy oil (Finish Line Wet) to discourage water ingress.

Am not sure, but I think this might be your fix, too. It sure has worked for me.

I will not replace the BB unless it acts up again.
 
The creaking issues in bottom brackets I've had over the years I solved in a few ways.

Sometimes the BB was not fully threaded into the frame. It didn't take much, but if the drive side is not torqued in tight, or if the non-drive side cup is not in tight enough then the side load you put on the pedals/spindle can cause a creaking sound.

If the non-drive side cup is cracked the BB can creak. This was a problem mostly when I had BBs with a plastic cup - the cheaper shimano ones. They're easy to over tighten and break. I have never cracked one of the alloy ones. You can sometimes replace just this cup depending on the BB. I've replaced plastic cups on some of mine with new alloy ones. Just have to get the correct one for your model BB - which can be a pain since you'll have to pull it out to read what it says on the BB body!

If the cranks themselves are not tightened down onto the spindles they can creak, but you can usually notice the crank oscillating as you pedal. Although the oscillation can be a bent crank arm or bent pedal spindle. Or broken pedal bearing. These last two might cause a creaking sound.

Sometimes it was my saddle that was actually creaking and not my BB! The rails were moving ever so slightly as they had become bent (cheap seat). I only figured it out after noticing the creaking only happened while pushing hard on the pedals when on the saddle.
 
Thank you gentlemen for the responses. I dropped off my bike to my mechanic for a tuneup today since I've been wanting him to go over everything anyway. I can do things, but I'm no bike mechanic.

He wants to replace the BB, but I think I'll take some time to play with it myself before I go that far.
 
@Reid I think I need to try your oil injection fix but I’m unsure how to go about it. Like what I have to dissassemble (I don’t have special tools), where to inject the oil, and what type of oil and hypo you used? This creaking is incredibly annoying!
 
@Reid I think I need to try your oil injection fix but I’m unsure how to go about it. Like what I have to dissassemble (I don’t have special tools), where to inject the oil, and what type of oil and hypo you used? This creaking is incredibly annoying!
Reed can you do some how to YouTube videos of your great idea's. thanks
 
Reed can you do some how to YouTube videos of your great idea's. thanks
It is not something I wish to generally promote. You void your factory warranty if you modify the hub motor in any way.

OTOH, KWYADAWYADI: No more than one ounce of synthetic or other ATF (is a good oil choice) injected through a small hole you will open up with a small drill bit. The hole will be made in the bottom of one of the disc brake mounting screw holes. Some time ago I posted images of the operation on this forum. The hole is to be undersized, about 1/16" inch, finishing the pass-through by hand and using putty to pull out the metal shavings as you go. There is a fixed stator just under the rotating drum you are drilling through. So use a hand held chuck to finish the hole and be gentle.

No more than one ounce of oil. The oil will mix with the factory grease inside of a hundred miles and make a thinner, runny grease. IF the squeak is a dry roller clutch, the runny grease will find the offender and douse the creak.

The one gasketed joint of the motor, on the chain side of the motor, will seep oil forevermore because it is not sealed to retain fluid oil. You will be wiping off the spokes on the chain side if you care to keep a clean bike.

This operation will cure the creak only if it owes to a dry clutch roller that did not get any grease in the factory assembly of the motor.

BE SURE to coat the threads of the brake disc screw with any sealant you like, before you reinstall the screw, to ensure no oil seeps back out through the threaded hole to contaminate the brake disc and spoil your rear brake pads.
 
@Reid thank you for this. However, what I thought was the bottom bracket was not!

After a month of frustration (and one crash at 20 MPH related to trying to find it) I FINALLY fixed the noise. It was the Thudbuster LT!

I had already partially disassembled it once, in addition to the stem/headset, cranks and bolts, pedals and some other stuff. Certainly I should have thought about putting another seat post on it sooner, but I didn't, so...

That tic, pop, creak, whatever, was intensely difficult to locate because it only happened when riding normally. Any change to the 5 contact points on the bike and it would stop. It sounded like it was coming from everywhere.

Anyway, yesterday I completely disassembled the Thudbuster LT and lubed everything, and now I have blissful silence! Except for the Almotions and a bit of motor whine of course.

What a PITA!
 
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