Revolt E+ Motor = EP8

[Art Deco]

Shimano was almost the only component brand that I recognized when I started looking at eBikes. I imagine Shimano corporate looks on motors and electronics as just a different type of component.

 

[jabberwocky]

Shimano was almost the only component brand that I recognized when I started looking at eBikes. I imagine Shimano corporate looks on motors and electronics as just a different type of component.

Shimanos bread and butter is selling packages to bike manufacturers. You can find Shimano bits on everything from super cheap entry level bikes all the way to 5 figure super high end boutique bikes. I'm guessing their various motor systems follow the same line. They want to be a largely one stop shop for bike companies to source things from. Traditional bike mfg getting started in ebikes? Shimano (who you already buy drivetrain bits from) has got you covered.

I'm curious about Stefans comment about class 3 being against their philosophy. I'd always assumed you didn't see E8000 motors on class 3 bikes because Shimano markets it as an EMTB system and EMTBs are almost universally class 1, but it sounds like maybe they have a company direction not to do class 3?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Do they have some sort of companywide policy against it? I'll definitely be curious to see what the future holds for the US line!

Do you remember the famous Bosch motto: "Throttle? Never!" And they keep their word.
The size of the European market (in which 45 km/h e-bikes occupy a small niche) is sufficient for Giant to go with the EP8. Canada will be happy, too.

 

[Art Deco]

Shimanos bread and butter is selling packages to bike manufacturers. You can find Shimano bits on everything from super cheap entry level bikes all the way to 5 figure super high end boutique bikes. I'm guessing their various motor systems follow the same line. They want to be a largely one stop shop for bike companies to source things from. Traditional bike mfg getting started in ebikes? Shimano (who you already buy drivetrain bits from) has got you covered.

I'm curious about Stefans comment about class 3 being against their philosophy. I'd always assumed you didn't see E8000 motors on class 3 bikes because Shimano markets it as an EMTB system and EMTBs are almost universally class 1, but it sounds like maybe they have a company direction not to do class 3?

I imagine it's just market size. The USA class 3 sales are probably insignificant so far.

 

[jabberwocky]

Do you remember the famous Bosch motto: "Throttle? Never!" And they keep their word.
The size of the European market (in which 45 km/h e-bikes occupy a small niche) is sufficient for Giant to go with the EP8. Canada will be happy, too.

I've never heard that, but it makes sense to me. Bosch (and Yamaha and Shimano...) are selling their systems mainly to traditional bike manufacturers, who are trying to market things that function as close to a normal bike as possible. Expand the market, but also sell things that are attractive to their traditional market as well (selling another bike to a longtime cyclist is probably easier than convincing a new customer to shell out thousands for a bike, though ebikes seem to be doing well at both things).

I'd be a bit surprised if Shimano refused to create a class 3 EP8 for the US market though. The US ebike market may be small compared to other regions, but its growing extremely rapidly and class 3s do seem to be popular in certain segments. No reason to send a potential customer to Yamaha or Bosch. I have to imagine that if a potential customer the size of Giant said they want their 2022 line to feature Shimano motors and some of them should be class 3 that Shimano wouldn't jump at that... But who knows? 2022 bikes will be interesting!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I imagine it's just market size. The USA class 3 sales are probably insignificant so far.

It is an interesting subject.

Take Specialized. In their Vado 6.0, the only Specialized Euro S-Pedelec, Specialized 1.2s motor (Brose TF) is used. It is because that very motor has got the EU "moped" certification (or rather, Brose took the burden of type approval and paid for it). Specialized have no special policy regarding classes. As the United States doesn't require motor certification or special safety features, Specialized just took the 1.3 (Brose S Alu) motor -- which was used on older Turbo Levo models as Class 1 -- and just shifted the maximum assistance speed in the bike software. It was only possible because Specialized feel it is their own motor, regardless who's manufacturing it. (Same with Mahle's Specialized SL 1.1 motor).

Shimano only makes Class 1 motors.
Bosch makes both Class 1 and Class 3/S-Pedelec motors. Only the Speed Line motor has the EU type approval and Bosch won't allow anything else on Class 3 e-bikes.
Yamaha? Can you name any Class 3 Yamaha/Giant e-bike? (I can't recollect one).

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Yamaha Civante and the 2020 - 2021 Giant Revolt are Class 3, along with the Giant Road E.

 

[Art Deco]

Yamaha Civante and the 2020 -2021 Giant Revolt are Class 3, along with the Giant Road E.

I think one of the Momentum bikes is a class 3 as well. Only because it was mentioned in Court's thread about what Giant bikes to review. But mostly class 1, where Specialized is mostly class 3 in their road bikes.

 

[Art Deco]

TBH if the only people who bought class 3 bikes were the people that actually used the extra speed, the market would be so tiny it would be like your heavy Vado in Poland. Not even the police would recognize one.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

TBH if the only people who bought class 3 bikes were the people that actually used the extra speed, the market would be so tiny it would be like your heavy Vado in Poland. Not even the police would recognize one.

European S-Pedelecs are equipped with unremovable, large, and well lit number plate mount. It draws attention of the police.

 

[jabberwocky]

Yamaha? Can you name any Class 3 Yamaha/Giant e-bike? (I can't recollect one).

In the USA, Giants entire non-mtb ebike line is class 3 for 2021 afiak (aside from the Roam). That’s the Revolt, RoadE, Fastroad and Explore lines. The Roam is class 1 and is the least expensive.

I know you’re in the EU Stefan and they handle things differently there, but unless you are riding off road or riding certain mups, there aren’t a lot of restrictions on class 3s in the US and they seem to be pretty popular. Most of specializeds lineup is class 3 as well outside the levos.

 

[jabberwocky]

TBH if the only people who bought class 3 bikes were the people that actually used the extra speed, the market would be so tiny it would be like your heavy Vado in Poland. Not even the police would recognize one.

Depends where you live. I live on the outskirts of northern Virginia and mainly ride rural roads (mix of paved and unpaved, paved roads don’t have shoulders) and I use the class 3 speeds every time I ride. I’m not pegging it at 28mph often, but cruising at 22-25 on busier roads is pretty routine.

I probably wouldn’t notice much if the assist ended at 25mph instead of 28, but 20 would be pretty limiting.

 

[Art Deco]

Depends where you live. I live on the outskirts of northern Virginia and mainly ride rural roads (mix of paved and unpaved, paved roads don’t have shoulders) and I use the class 3 speeds every time I ride. I’m not pegging it at 28mph often, but cruising at 22-25 on busier roads is pretty routine.

I probably wouldn’t notice much if the assist ended at 25mph instead of 28, but 20 would be pretty limiting.

Yes, what he said. A single 25 mph limit for a bicycle. The USA has lots of 25 mph roads BTW.

 

[jabberwocky]

Yes, what he said. A single 25 mph limit for a bicycle. The USA has lots of 25 mph roads BTW.

Class 1 is a useful cutoff when talking EMTBs though. I think a lot of groups/managers are a little squirrely even at a 20mph assist on mtb trails, which is understandable. Ebike takeup has been slowest in the mountainbike world (its still slow and pushback is still pretty strong in some groups). I can ride my class 3 on all roads and most bike infrastructure around me, but my EMTB is only legal on maybe 30-40% of the trail within an hour drive of me.

Which seems to be where the market is heading. Class 3 for anything commuting/pavement oriented, class 1 for EMTBs. At least among the major OEMs.

 

[Art Deco]

Looking at the pictures posted by Emtb riders, I don't think over 20mph or even over 10mph is much of a concern except for downhill racers. You don't need a motor if you have gravity on your side.
And anyway, I am much more concerned about climbing hills at over 8 or 10mph than descending at over 20 or 30mph. It probably doesn't cost more to build a class 3 than a class 1 road bike.

 

[jabberwocky]

Looking at the pictures posted by Emtb riders, I don't think over 20mph or even over 10mph is much of a concern except for downhill racers. You don't need a motor if you have gravity on your side.
And anyway, I am much more concerned about climbing hills at over 8 or 10mph than descending at over 20 or 30mph. It probably doesn't cost more to build a class 3 than a class 1 road bike.

Agreed. If I'm going over 20mph on my mtb (electric or non) I'm probably going downhill and not even pedaling. Its just more pushing for access. Managing agencies and existing groups like that class 1 cutoff more than class 3.

Also agree that I'm pretty sure the cost difference between class 1 and class 3 is essentially zero for the mfg. Its just a software setting. Looping it back to Giant, I'm curious 1) if the switch to the EP8 is only in regions (EU/Ca) where it was already class 1, or if its universal, and 2) if its happening in the US, will Giant get Shimano to do a class 3 EP8 motor? Its hard to imagine Giant would downgrade the 2022 in the US, but they do make the occasional headscratcher of a decision.

 

[Art Deco]

Is the form factor of the 2 motors similar enough that it can just be an optional choice? I think you can buy a Mustang with anything from about 150 hp upto 750 hp . Same car. Specialized sells it's ebikes with several trims and power levels at way different prices.

 

[jabberwocky]

Is the form factor of the 2 motors similar enough that it can just be an optional choice? I think you can buy a Mustang with anything from about 150 hp upto 750 hp . Same car. Specialized sells it's ebikes with several trims and power levels at way different prices.

Pretty sure the Yamaha and the Shimano motors have totally different bolt patterns. Would require a different frame. I doubt Giant will offer both motors in the same region. If they want more differentiation, they already could do that with component specs or even different motors within the Yamaha range if they really wanted. They've apparently never seen the need, at least in the US (all their ebikes have a single model; they don't do multiple builds to meet various price points. If you want a RevoltE, you get one choice).

 

[conix67]

Looking at the US E-bike classification, the class 3 puts a lot of restrictions to it - only allowed on the road or bike paths. Most other paths regular bikes are allowed cannot be ridden on class 3 bikes. So this means the sole use for class 3 is either commuting or road cycling?

 

[jabberwocky]

Looking at the US E-bike classification, the class 3 puts a lot of restrictions to it - only allowed on the road or bike paths. Most other paths regular bikes are allowed cannot be ridden on class 3 bikes. So this means the sole use for class 3 is either commuting or road cycling?

It really varies by state/locality. Like, for me, VA adopted the 3 class system last year, so a class 3 is considered a bike for anything under state/county control (so all roads). The only MUP around me is the W&OD which is under NOVA parks, which has elected to go along with the 3 class thing per the state for their paved stuff, though they limit to class 1 for unpaved trails. But it does vary. Closer to DC where paved infrastructure is controlled by a melange of various agencies its probably harder to figure out.