Report of my first 4000 miles on a CCS (also my first 5 months of owning it)

[Chris Hammond]

So I thought I'd give an update on my first 4 weeks of ownership, which happened to coincide with crossing the 1000 mile threshold; total now is 1036 miles.

The CCS really is a great bike. It rides very smooth and solid. It was clearly designed and purpose built to be exactly what I wanted; a high speed commuter.

Last night I decided to fully charge my 52V battery for the first time. This was a mistake. The bike is a monster with a full battery. As I have mentioned on other threads at 80% the bike will assist up to ~33.5 mph or so. Well I confirmed this morning that this is a voltage related issue. At the full 58.8V the bike will assist up to ~37.5 mph or so. This mornings commute was truly awesome. I loved my bike before, and now I am stuck with the decision of how often do I fully charge my battery for the extra thrill.
I will post pics of my computer and controller after this mornings ride. But I really am surprised with both the speed and efficiency of this bike. There is an interesting trait I have noticed for a while, when you are riding at near the limit of the bikes speed threshold, the power being used starts dropping. In many cases this allows me to ride at the bike's speed limit, yet pulling much less power than the level 3 or S would pull at lower speeds. It's only really possible to do this on flats or downhill slope, when you start climbing the slowing down will cause you to start pulling full power. At any rate I averaged ~21 W / mile with an average speed of 27mph.

I know there have been many reports of chain drops (not uncommon on any single chainring bikes). I have fortunately yet to experience this problem. I did put a cheap $10 chain catcher on the bike the day I got it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AO3HO2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I haven't had any spoke issues other than the need to tighten a few of them periodically.

The tires are wearing very well so far, the front tread looks essentially new except for being dirty, the center of the rear is showing very slight wear, I'd expect to get at least 5000 miles on it. I did drop pressures to ~65 psi after I converted to tubeless.

Everything on the bike works like the day I got it.

The only warranty issue was my original taillight failed. Juiced responded immediately to my service ticket, and sent me a new one which is working great.

I have ridden the bike without power a few times on purpose. The bike feels heavy and sluggish getting up to speed, however, once you are above 15 mph it is a fine commuting bike. Climbing hills slows you down very quickly though and the gearing would be a problem without the motor assistance when climbing.

Juiced really is building a bike that is exactly what a bike commuter needs. Now if I can just stay with my plan of only charging to 80% to prolong my battery life.

 

[Reid]

Thank you for this really extraordinary report. Great material well presented!

Also, I agree with your observation about the gearing. It would benefit from a lower low.

And as for you, don't you wish for a taller top gear for such high speeds?

Or instead you must be a efficient spinner and pretty strong and fast on your own!

 

[Asher]

Great writeup.

Are you basing your observstions on power draw from the real time wattage reading? It seems kind of screwy so I don't trust that. Watt hours used between time 1 and 2 is a better metric probably.

Also, your observations raised a question - is fuel economy aka whr per mile the same when voltage is different? Ie, when you're at full battery and you put on Eco mode, it says 250 watts or so at full pedaling, and you're going pretty fast. Then the battery is at half capacity, 48v and your speed has dipped, but the wattage still reads 250. So are you then using the same watt hours but getting less power, and thus less fuel economy?

 

[Tora Harris]

Observations are real. Electric motors are more efficient at higher rpm speeds.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Last night I decided to fully charge my 52V battery for the first time. This was a mistake. The bike is a monster with a full battery.

Ha ha, gotcha!

Great report as always, Chris. Interesting observation about needing less power at or near the top end.

BTW, I clocked 1,079 miles after yesterday's ride -- but I've been riding since late January, not one month!

 

[Jeffrios]

Great review, I've been on my bike for about 100 miles and still waiting to do my biking story for work. I hope to get to that later this month!

 

[Chris Hammond]

Great writeup.

Are you basing your observstions on power draw from the real time wattage reading? It seems kind of screwy so I don't trust that. Watt hours used between time 1 and 2 is a better metric probably.

Also, your observations raised a question - is fuel economy aka whr per mile the same when voltage is different? Ie, when you're at full battery and you put on Eco mode, it says 250 watts or so at full pedaling, and you're going pretty fast. Then the battery is at half capacity, 48v and your speed has dipped, but the wattage still reads 250. So are you then using the same watt hours but getting less power, and thus less fuel economy?

So I am basing this observation on the real time wattage reading. Amps are also displayed in real time. I don't know why you don't trust this reading. Based on my experience thus far, it seems very accurate. When I am travelling at lower speeds and use higher levels of assist, I will see real-time watts up over 1000W on occasion in S mode, and I can both feel and hear the motor pulling hard. Conversely in Eco, I don't see watts over 250W and the assist feel minimal.
I do monitor total Wh used on my commutes, and it seems to track very well with my expectations, for my 30 mile commute I average ~500Wh and the range is ~390 to 600. The low use rides have been with tailwinds, and high use with headwinds.

This brings another great point about the bike. Riding in the wind becomes a mostly non-factor with the bike. Strong headwinds do slow you down, but its nothing like the slowing I get on my road bike. The days where I was killing myself at 12 mph into a strong headwind sucked all the fun out of riding. No more with the CCS, I have had several days riding home with 15+ mph headwinds. I would go ride the train home before, now I just ride and my slowest average speed getting home has still been over 22mph. Love it.

 

[Asher]

I guess I didn't trust it because a) it vacillated a lot when my pedaling didn't really and especially b) the actual mechanical contribution of the motor changed at different voltages.

If you're actually getting more help from 250W at 52 V real time voltage instead of 48 V, then the 52 V battery is more fuel efficient, correct?

Also, Tora had mentioned how 60V batteries are high voltage and thus require costlier handling. Does anyone have a link to resources on that? I want to read up on that.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Also, Tora had mentioned how 60V batteries are high voltage and thus require costlier handling. Does anyone have a link to resources on that? I want to read up on that.

IIRC, Tora had said that there are different regulations regarding bikes over 60V, thus he has no current plans to build them. Individuals building and modding bikes typically ignore the regulations or don't know they even exist. A bike maker does not have that luxury.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Last night I decided to fully charge my 52V battery for the first time. This was a mistake. The bike is a monster with a full battery. As I have mentioned on other threads at 80% the bike will assist up to ~33.5 mph or so. Well I confirmed this morning that this is a voltage related issue. At the full 58.8V the bike will assist up to ~37.5 mph or so. This mornings commute was truly awesome. I loved my bike before, and now I am stuck with the decision of how often do I fully charge my battery for the extra thrill.

Awesome. May be 90% charge limit would be a better compromise b/w power and longevity (still get ~800 cycles or so)

 

[Reid]

Awesome. May be 90% charge limit would be a better compromise b/w power and longevity (still get ~800 cycles or so)

I guess I didn't trust it because a) it vacillated a lot when my pedaling didn't really and especially b) the actual mechanical contribution of the motor changed at different voltages.

If you're actually getting more help from 250W at 52 V real time voltage instead of 48 V, then the 52 V battery is more fuel efficient, correct?

Also, Tora had mentioned how 60V batteries are high voltage and thus require costlier handling. Does anyone have a link to resources on that? I want to read up on that.

Watts is Watts (sic) and Pigs is Pigs ( great, classic short story since 1905).

Tora is correct. Higher voltage batteries are legally considered an electrocution hazard. You can get as much POWER and SPEED from a 6V battery, for instance if the associated hub motor were wound with a relatively few turns of very heavy gauge wire! It would have to become a very large hub motor, indeed, if wound for 6V potential.

The speed of a motor is determined in part by its ampere-turns. If we use heavy guage wire and build a very bulky, ugly-huge geared hub motor: absolutely! We could go whatever high speed we wish to wind for, IF we are willing to carry a pack made of many more cells connected in parallel to provide the very high current that a low voltage winding inherently requires.

Volts times Amps equals Watts. To make a very strong, low voltage motor requires very heavy, bulky windings of relatively few turns. Your car's starter motor running from a 12V battery is a prime example.

It is much more practical to make a strong motor compact by employing high turns and the then-requisite high voltage to shove the requisite ampere-turns current through the electrical circuit and thus create the strong magnetic field required.

Remember: one Ampere of current through a single turn of wire around a stator equals one Ampere turn. It is no different at root than water pressure in the water supply pipe, and your doing something with that water pressure (potential power) by putting it to work, operating a mechanical sprinkler or a water motor:
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/09/power-from-the-tap-water-motors.html

One Watt is one Ampere of current though a resistance or impedance of one Ohm. And Pigs is Pigs. Remember these maxims, lol!
To make a motor physically small and output large powers relative to its size requires either: low turns and high current (heavy wire will be needed!) or high turns and low current (HIGH voltage needed!) or a lot more water pressure than this speed demon of an example is getting,

Every electrical motor, linear or rotary, develops a voltage countermanding force resisting its otherwise unlimited (absent external load) rotation (or linear movement). Motors unloaded would self destruct by unlimited overspeeding if not for "counter EMF."

This counter EMF is inescapable, and fortunately a good trait, as well!

An input voltage guarantees a rotational torque.

And if you want to go faster, well, increase the voltage. The voltage increases the current. It is like water pressure enables the flow of water.

Increase of Voltage (pressure) will force more current (Amps) through a given motor winding, if called for by the load, and produce, at any rate, an increase in torque or twisting force at the motor shaft. This is why, for this example, the synonym term for Voltage is Potential. The potential for power to be developed when flow or current (Amps) is permitted by the motor circuit.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

@Asher Here's a clip from an official letter issued by OSHA: "As explained in Appendix C to 29 CFR 1910.269, the internal resistance of the human body is 500 ohms, which is the minimum resistance of a worker with broken skin at the point of contact. The current through 500 ohms from a live part energized at 60 volts would be 120 milliamperes. This level of current, either ac or dc, is sufficient to cause serious injury."

And here's a passage from the General Motors instruction for vehicle dismantlers: "GM hybrid, Electric, and Electrified vehicles contain an intermediate voltage (30<IV<60 volts DC) or high voltage (HV> 60 volts DC) battery pack. Battery packs are based on either Nickel Metal Hydride or Lithium ion cells. These battery packs can be recycled."

Just a bit of confirmation of the "60V = high voltage" statement.

 

[Asher]

Ah thank you. My searches were coming up dry, mostly. I'm curious as to what he would have to differently and how much cost it would add per unit.

 

[Chris Hammond]

I don't think the actual build cost would be the issue. I am guessing that the certifications needed to meet the more stringent regulations would be where the costs would go up dramatically. Also, the advantage of going above 60V would really only be to increase top speed, which means you are beyond class 3 ebike and into moped territory, requiring license and insurance for owners. It really is talking about apples and oranges.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Also, the advantage of going above 60V would really only be to increase top speed, which means you are beyond class 3 ebike and into moped territory, requiring license and insurance for owners. It really is talking about apples and oranges.

If we kept our speed down, a 60 V battery (or higher) would contribute to increased range also.

Part of the expense might be a different controller. I don't know the specs on the controller we've got so I don't know how much (if any) it would have to be altered.

On a side note, I see that the Scrambler has 52V batteries. with 13 and 19 Ah sizes. I've been wanting one of the 52V, 21Ah batteries, but a 13 might fill a niche for me even better. Less overall weight, decent mileage, some of that 52V zippiness, and room for a water bottle cage. I hope they will put these new batteries on sale in the Parts and Accessories department. I bet they'd sell like crazy to skinflints like me who are wincing at the $1,300 price tag for the big battery. @Tora Harris please please please ...

 

[Reid]

On that side note, Bruce, I agree. I would like to have a 52V battery with plain old slow charger. 13AH would be sufficient. For the better performance in particular at the bottom of the battery discharge.

Please Tora Please

 

[Asher]

I expect Juiced will stop selling 48V wide format batteries some time in 2019, given that 48V is not even an option on the Scrambler. Simplify inventory, and the 52V probably doesn't cost much if any more per watt hour, wholesale. At least in terms of production costs.

The high pricing of 52V was a Gambit for higher profit IMO. Which was doable when no one else has 52V.

Good to see Juiced making it the standard at a reasonable price (an extra $200-300 was probably warranted for the CCS/RCS 52V, instead of a $1,000 forced bundle IMO).

 

[Chris Hammond]

I must admit that the $1000 premium for the 52V battery was a hard pill to swallow when I was deciding whether to go for the 19.2Ah or the 52V.
I will say I would not have been willing to pay separately for the Grin charger or the GPS. Now that I have them though, I really do appreciate it. The Grin Satiator really is a nice charger, it not a must have, but its great to get the additional info on battery status that it provides.
The GPS is also a really nice feature. Now that I have it set up, its great to get the notification on my phone when my bike moves. It adds security for myself, and lets my wife know in real time when I have hit the road.

On a side note to this thread. I forgot to mention my impression of the brakes. I am actually quite pleased with the Tektro setup. I have Shimano Deore XT brakes on my MTB, both using 180mm rotors; I honestly cannot appreciate a significant difference between them while riding. Both are very smooth and linear in increasing braking force. Very easy to modulate and control. The ergonomics of the handles are nearly identical. I obviously use the front brake far more on the CCS than I do on the MTB. (The front brake is not your friend going down steep singletrack, I have the scars to prove it ). It will be interesting to see what kind of pad wear I get. I do get some slight squealing under hard extended braking when the rotors get heated. My MTB gets much worse in this regard due to the much bigger heat load on long descents.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I like your new avatar, @Chris Hammond !

 

[Chris Hammond]

So I crossed the 2000 mile mark today. Figured its a good time for an update.
The CCS continues to impress. I really don't think you can buy another bike right now that offers what the CCS does at anywhere near the price. The combination of speed, efficiency, and price is just great.

I have only fully charged my 52V battery twice. (It's a struggle to avoid it.) The bike is great at the normal 80% charge, I have no problem at all with managing my 30 mile commute. Based on voltage I don't think I've ever had my battery below 35-40%. I find myself riding in level 3 most often, which keeps me at ~30 mph for a cruising speed on average. I do love the extra speed at full charge, I just haven't been willing to sacrifice my battery's longevity yet.

I have only had 2 chain drops, one had the chain hop up on the chainguard and I was able to tap it back on with my foot while riding. The second was inside. I learned here that my cheap $10 chainguide does a great job of making it almost impossible to get the chain back up on the ring. I adjusted its placement afterwards hoping to prevent the chain from falling inside again. So far, so good.

I still haven't had any spoke issues other than the need to tighten a few of them periodically.

The tires wear is excellent so far, the front tread still looks almost new except for being dirty. The center of the rear has some wear ~ maybe 25% ish, I still expect to get at least 5000 miles on it. I am still running pressures at ~65 psi since I converted to tubeless, I do need to top off pressures weekly or so, and have had pressures down to about 40 before refilling. The ride is definitely smoother at lower pressures, but I am more concerned with protecting the wheels from hard hits at high speed than a smooth ride.
I am still very pleased with the performance of the brakes. Plenty of stopping power. I actually had a near miss today that copied Reid's video of the right turn cutoff wreck. Fortunately as I was passing the car I saw his brake lights come on just in time, (no signal), a good panic stop and a yell from me about signalling as he drove away oblivious to nearly running me over. I haven't pulled the pads off to inspect wear, but I really don't think there is a need at this point.

Everything on the bike still works like the day I got it.

My only warranty issue is still my original taillight failed; replaced immediately on warranty and is working great.

I have had issue with the kickstand mount loosening. I have tried retightening, but need to repeat this every 3 weeks or so. I may end up replacing the bolts with slightly longer ones and double nut if it continues. Perhaps the nylon on the lock nuts just aren't up to the job.

One annoying thing is if I power up the battery and controller after I am on the bike and pedaling, I must stop pedaling for a few seconds before the bike will provide assist.

As many others have stated, the battery seating issue gets easier after it has been done many times. Other than early on when I didn't get the battery fully locked in, I haven't had any power cutout issues.

Overall, the bike has done exactly what I wanted. I ride to work everyday, even in the brutal summer heat. Trying to cool down is easier with the 30 mph breeze. I really do love the bike.