Rebuilding My Gen 1 Hydra Fatty

[Cuz Vinny]

Project Fat Hydra Revive has begun! I’m not getting into the background story because it’s just too long and I’m past it now. I‘ve had the frame and motor from this bike sitting around and collecting dust and I’ve been wanting to do something with it so I’m not out the money I spent on it. In my research I found that the frame is a Dengfu e22 frame. See links below. With this info I can now get a new battery to use in the bike. I’m still going to use a 52v 17.5ah battery. The motor itself I’m looking into dropping the power for reliability and better range. The motor is the 2300 watt version and I’m hoping by changing the controller I can drop it to 1500 watts which is more than enough power. At the 2300 watt level I feel it’s just too hard on standard bike parts that aren’t built to take that much power. Plus it should increase the range greatly. Luckily I saved most of the parts from the bike so it should be easy to duplicate except for the handlebars. They are on another bike I built so I’ll use standard MTB flat bars on the rebuild. If the controller swap won’t work I’ll get another Bafang Ultra motor from Hi Power Cycles @ 1500w and a battery as well or the Luna Z1 is the same exact frame so their replacement 48V 17.5ah battery should work but I’d need to change the voltage on my motor.

If this works it could also be a way to go for other Hydra owners who are having problems and can’t get any support from WW as they are now out of business.



https://www.dengfubike.com/products/e22-frame-motor-battery-kit
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/dengfu-e22-frame-thread.26880/

 

[greeno]

If your 2300w motor is the ultra motor with the ArchonX1 upgraded controller I think your out of luck as far as swapping out the controller for a stock version.
From what I remember Mr. P told me that they somehow had to “pair the software” between the two units ( motor and controller ) for them to work correctly.
A couple of years back after I purchased a motor from WW I told them that I was going to purchase a “spare” UART controller to have on hand in case I ever needed one and he told me that I would have to ship both the motor and controller back to him so he could sync them up to work together.
So I ended up buying a stock bare bones motor for a spare instead.

My buddy has the 2300w version and wants to change his power levels down as he’s blowing up his Rohloff hub after 1 1/2 yrs and he can’t access the software due to it being an Archon X1 controller.

So he’s going to use my spare motor and we will tune the software as needed on our own.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

If your 2300w motor is the ultra motor with the ArchonX1 upgraded controller I think your out of luck as far as swapping out the controller for a stock version.
From what I remember Mr. P told me that they somehow had to “pair the software” between the two units ( motor and controller ) for them to work correctly.
A couple of years back after I purchased a motor from WW I told them that I was going to purchase a “spare” UART controller to have on hand in case I ever needed one and he told me that I would have to ship both the motor and controller back to him so he could sync them up to work together.
So I ended up buying a stock bare bones motor for a spare instead.

My buddy has the 2300w version and wants to change his power levels down as he’s blowing up his Rohloff hub after 1 1/2 yrs and he can’t access the software due to it being an Archon X1 controller.

So he’s going to use my spare motor and we will tune the software as needed on our own.

So I‘m keeping the power level at 2300 watts. I’m using a chain so hopefully it will hold up. I did find out the frame is a Dengfu E22 with a different rear triangle for the fat bike. Any motor and battery kit for the E22 will fit the frame. Also suspension linkage parts you can get directly from Dengfu. It’s actually the same exact frame as the Luna Z1. At least with this info WW Hydra Gen 1 owners aren’t completely screwed.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Bike is done! Keeping the 2300w power level and having HPC build me a battery to support the 60a peak needed for that level. Have to wait for the battery until after the holidays but man it will be good to have this beast back on the trails.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

View attachment 185981
View attachment 185982
Bike is done! Keeping the 2300w power level and having HPC build me a battery to support the 60a peak needed for that level. Have to wait for the battery until after the holidays but man it will be good to have this beast back on the trails.

Pretty badass-lookin' bike! Love the wheels.

Coming from a medical background, I'd love to see someone make at fatty named Acid or Liver.
;^}

 

[greeno]

Looks good.
On the battery‘s I built for my buddy I used the Daly 50a bms to handle the additional current using 52v.
Im sure the battery your having made is using 21700 cells as they are the best bang for your buck.
I like the Samsung 50E.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Looks good.
On the battery‘s I built for my buddy I used the Daly 50a bms to handle the additional current using 52v.
Im sure the battery your having made is using 21700 cells as they are the best bang for your buck.
I like the Samsung 50E.

Hi Power Cycles is building the battery. I have their 1800 watt Trailblazer which is an awesome bike. I know they will make a battery thats more than capable of handling the power.

What I’m stoked about is now that the frame the bike uses is known owners can get motor/battery kits from multiple vendors with power ranging from 1000w up to 2000 plus. I’m not sure what frame the Gen 2 uses but I’m not sure how many of them were built.

 

[Taylor57]

Great rebuild/repurpose job Vinny. Bike looks awesome. I wouldn't let it outside of the kitchen!

 

[greeno]

Look at you rockin the wren!
Kevin and Russ are great to deal with.
I used to ride their forks until I couldn’t get the size I needed for my bike at the time and went to the dark side.
Great company and the owner is top notch.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Look at you rockin the wren!
Kevin and Russ are great to deal with.
I used to ride their forks until I couldn’t get the size I needed for my bike at the time and went to the dark side.
Great company and the owner is top notch.

Love the Wren. Easy to adjust and doesn’t stiffen up in the cold. Only downside is the max tire size is 26X4.8

 

[JRA]

I am confused? Even if your motor controller is rated for 2300w can't you still use lower assist levels to get more range and less drivetrain wear?

The 52 and 48v 21700 cell batteries I had made with a 40A BMS are only 15ah due to size restrictions using a stock case for the e22 Dengfu frame. However they both outperform the stock 17.5ah 18650 cell one that came stock from Luna.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

I am confused? Even if your motor controller is rated for 2300w can't you still use lower assist levels to get more range and less drivetrain wear?

The 52 and 48v 21700 cell batteries I had made with a 40A BMS are only 15ah due to size restrictions using a stock case for the e22 Dengfu frame. However they both outperform the stock 17.5ah 18650 cell one that came stock from Luna.

Yes I can use the lower assist levels. In normal riding I only use 1-3 levels. My bike came with a 52V 17.5AH battery so that’s what I’m having built. I’m not sure what cells WW used when they originally built the batteries.

 

[greeno]

JRA is your bike using the 2300w version?

Best case for 52v. Best case for 48v.
2300w ÷ by 58.8v (100%) = 39.1amps 2300w ÷ by 54.6v (100%) = 42.1amps
2300w ÷ by 55.4v (80%) = 41.5amps. 2300w ÷ by 51.5v (80%) = 44.6amps
2300w ÷ by 52.6v (60%) = 43.7amps. 2300w ÷ by 48.8v (60%) = 47.1amps
2300w ÷ by 48.7v (40%). = 47.2amps 2300w ÷ by 45.2v (40%) = 50.8amps
2300w ÷ by 45.4v (20%). = 50.6amps 2300w ÷ by 42.1v (20%) = 54.6amps

I was cutting it close with the 50a bms and so I just went and checked my notes for his build and I used a 60a Daly and not the 50a version as I stated earlier so I was ok.

So you can see your kinda undersized as far as overcurrent protection goes.

For the smaller packs like your 15ahr you either have to use a high discharge battery or multiple jumpers from group to group to more than carry the max current draw in a worst case situation, lower voltage/ higher wattage.

For your 15ahr pack 52v you got 3 groups of 14 right, (and I’m assuming your using battery cells with a 5ahr rating).
So if your using .2mm x 9mm nickel jumpers whitch are rated at (8.2a optimal, 12.3a acceptable) you need at least (6) jumpers fro group to group and the discharge rate of your battery’s needs to be at a minimum of 20a.

What batteries did you go with in your build?

When I built my buddy’s 52v/30ahr battery (6x14) I was able to have a minimum of (10) jumpers from group to group so I used Samsung 50E 21700 cells rated for 9.8a discharge giving me a max current flow of 58.8 amps capacity if needed but as you can see from above the most it could ever draw in a worst case sinario is in the low 50’s

Not trying to stir the pot just asking a couple of questions.

 

[VaiVai]

View attachment 185667

Project Fat Hydra Revive has begun! I’m not getting into the background story because it’s just too long and I’m past it now. I‘ve had the frame and motor from this bike sitting around and collecting dust and I’ve been wanting to do something with it so I’m not out the money I spent on it. In my research I found that the frame is a Dengfu e22 frame. See links below. With this info I can now get a new battery to use in the bike. I’m still going to use a 52v 17.5ah battery. The motor itself I’m looking into dropping the power for reliability and better range. The motor is the 2300 watt version and I’m hoping by changing the controller I can drop it to 1500 watts which is more than enough power. At the 2300 watt level I feel it’s just too hard on standard bike parts that aren’t built to take that much power. Plus it should increase the range greatly. Luckily I saved most of the parts from the bike so it should be easy to duplicate except for the handlebars. They are on another bike I built so I’ll use standard MTB flat bars on the rebuild. If the controller swap won’t work I’ll get another Bafang Ultra motor from Hi Power Cycles @ 1500w and a battery as well or the Luna Z1 is the same exact frame so their replacement 48V 17.5ah battery should work but I’d need to change the voltage on my motor.

If this works it could also be a way to go for other Hydra owners who are having problems and can’t get any support from WW as they are now out of business.



https://www.dengfubike.com/products/e22-frame-motor-battery-kit
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/dengfu-e22-frame-thread.26880/

View attachment 185667

Project Fat Hydra Revive has begun! I’m not getting into the background story because it’s just too long and I’m past it now. I‘ve had the frame and motor from this bike sitting around and collecting dust and I’ve been wanting to do something with it so I’m not out the money I spent on it. In my research I found that the frame is a Dengfu e22 frame. See links below. With this info I can now get a new battery to use in the bike. I’m still going to use a 52v 17.5ah battery. The motor itself I’m looking into dropping the power for reliability and better range. The motor is the 2300 watt version and I’m hoping by changing the controller I can drop it to 1500 watts which is more than enough power. At the 2300 watt level I feel it’s just too hard on standard bike parts that aren’t built to take that much power. Plus it should increase the range greatly. Luckily I saved most of the parts from the bike so it should be easy to duplicate except for the handlebars. They are on another bike I built so I’ll use standard MTB flat bars on the rebuild. If the controller swap won’t work I’ll get another Bafang Ultra motor from Hi Power Cycles @ 1500w and a battery as well or the Luna Z1 is the same exact frame so their replacement 48V 17.5ah battery should work but I’d need to change the voltage on my motor.

If this works it could also be a way to go for other Hydra owners who are having problems and can’t get any support from WW as they are now out of business.



https://www.dengfubike.com/products/e22-frame-motor-battery-kit
https://www.emtbforums.com/threads/dengfu-e22-frame-thread.26880/

Hey.
Fellow Hydra owner here.
Same bike just 27.5 instead of fatty.
Innotrace controller.
3500 miles.
I believe you'd truly miss the Innotrace controller.
As far as efficency is concerned, the innotrace is probably north of 10% more efficient. This comes down to the wave form created by the controller as it mimics a 3phase AC motor, pulsing DC current in smooth "sinusoidal" forms. This style, in comparison to the more common "Trapezoidal" has is benefits. Trapezoid wave forms are more efficient but only at higher motor rpms than the m620 will ever spin.
The controller with sine wave commutation is more expensive to manufacture, more efficient in our case, does not have torque ripple issues, more smooth, less noise (literally).
The innotrace controller has another trick up it's sleeve. Field weakening.. which trades current for more top end speed than would otherwise be available with the stock controller.
So for more efficency, just go a bit slower.
Field weakening takes place at the very edge of the motors speed limits.
You want effiency? Stay out of sport mode. Which you wouldn't have with the stock controller anyways. Voilaa!

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Updated pics of the bike. Just need a chain and the battery. I swapped out the NX 12 speed cassette for a Microshift 9 speed 11-46. It’s a beefy unit and designed for high power e-bikes. It’s made of hardened steel and is all one piece except for the two smallest cogs. I also have a much better chain line now. Since I’m keeping the 2300w motor I figured this is a better option than the NX cassette.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

JRA is your bike using the 2300w version?

Best case for 52v. Best case for 48v.
2300w ÷ by 58.8v (100%) = 39.1amps 2300w ÷ by 54.6v (100%) = 42.1amps
2300w ÷ by 55.4v (80%) = 41.5amps. 2300w ÷ by 51.5v (80%) = 44.6amps
2300w ÷ by 52.6v (60%) = 43.7amps. 2300w ÷ by 48.8v (60%) = 47.1amps
2300w ÷ by 48.7v (40%). = 47.2amps 2300w ÷ by 45.2v (40%) = 50.8amps
2300w ÷ by 45.4v (20%). = 50.6amps 2300w ÷ by 42.1v (20%) = 54.6amps

I was cutting it close with the 50a bms and so I just went and checked my notes for his build and I used a 60a Daly and not the 50a version as I stated earlier so I was ok.

So you can see your kinda undersized as far as overcurrent protection goes.

For the smaller packs like your 15ahr you either have to use a high discharge battery or multiple jumpers from group to group to more than carry the max current draw in a worst case situation, lower voltage/ higher wattage.

For your 15ahr pack 52v you got 3 groups of 14 right, (and I’m assuming your using battery cells with a 5ahr rating).
So if your using .2mm x 9mm nickel jumpers whitch are rated at (8.2a optimal, 12.3a acceptable) you need at least (6) jumpers fro group to group and the discharge rate of your battery’s needs to be at a minimum of 20a.

What batteries did you go with in your build?

When I built my buddy’s 52v/30ahr battery (6x14) I was able to have a minimum of (10) jumpers from group to group so I used Samsung 50E 21700 cells rated for 9.8a discharge giving me a max current flow of 58.8 amps capacity if needed but as you can see from above the most it could ever draw in a worst case sinario is in the low 50’s

Not trying to stir the pot just asking a couple of questions.

Can a battery case that is labeled for a 48V 17.5AH battery be used to build a 52V 17AH battery? The only battery cases I’ve been able to find for the Hydra (Dengfu E23) are 48V 17.5AH. My bike is an early Gen 1 Hydra so it was supposed to come with a 52V 17AH battery. That’s what I want to have built for the bike.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

I am confused? Even if your motor controller is rated for 2300w can't you still use lower assist levels to get more range and less drivetrain wear?

The 52 and 48v 21700 cell batteries I had made with a 40A BMS are only 15ah due to size restrictions using a stock case for the e22 Dengfu frame. However they both outperform the stock 17.5ah 18650 cell one that came stock from Luna.

So you are correct. According to this thread WW Hydra owners were lied to. The original battery is only 14 or 15ah. More salt rubbed into the wound of an already unpleasant purchase experience.

Whats even worse is the website is still up like you can order a bike from them.

Hydra Batterie Question

Hi, does anyone have a photo of a hydra battery where you can see the cells and the bms? so practically the 4 screws opened and the pack pulled out? br Andy

forums.electricbikereview.com

 

[greeno]

The 48v/ 17.5Ah battery case is probably set-up for (13) x(5) = 65 batteries, probably 18650 cells would be my guess.
To see if a 52v 17Ah case would work do this.
Get some penny’s and some nickels, like 100 of each.
The diameter of a penny is about the size of an 18650 cell, the diameter of a nickel is close to a 21700 cell.
Now trace out your existing battery dimensions on a large sheet of paper or cardboard box or whatever.
Then layout your pennys (65) of them inside that shape guessing as to the layout, you’ll have a bms inside also so figure for that too.
Then layout either (70) penny’s for (14x5) for your 52v and see if it fits inside.
You could use 21700 cells too either 14x3=42 for 15ah, or 14x4=56 for 20ah.
All depends on the inside dims.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

The 48v/ 17.5Ah battery case is probably set-up for (13) x(5) = 65 batteries, probably 18650 cells would be my guess.
To see if a 52v 17Ah case would work do this.
Get some penny’s and some nickels, like 100 of each.
The diameter of a penny is about the size of an 18650 cell, the diameter of a nickel is close to a 21700 cell.
Now trace out your existing battery dimensions on a large sheet of paper or cardboard box or whatever.
Then layout your pennys (65) of them inside that shape guessing as to the layout, you’ll have a bms inside also so figure for that too.
Then layout either (70) penny’s for (14x5) for your 52v and see if it fits inside.
You could use 21700 cells too either 14x3=42 for 15ah, or 14x4=56 for 20ah.
All depends on the inside dims.

The E23 battery case can only support 15AH @ 52V. This was confirmed by Dengfu, Green Bike Kit, and a thread here on EBR. The specs for the bike show 17AH but that’s not what customers got.