Rad Rover 60v 64A (4000w) regen

[JTK77]

2017 Rad Rhino (/Rover).
60v 24Ah 120A BMS (continous) lockable downtube custom battery (16s6p Samsung 40T) .
Custom factory ordered plug n play modded 75v max 64A sine save controller (L1019).
Vented G062.1000.DC motor with thicker internal wiring and temp sensor with BT/App functionality. Welded clutch for regen.
100mm Air fork with rebound adjustment and remote lockout.
Magura MT5e f223/r203 (Galfer) brakes.
52t chainring 8 speed trigger shifter with 11-42t cassette and new deraileur.
780mm Rad Devil Riser handlebar with full MTB grips, Wuxing x130 thump throttle, fork remote lockout. Custom headlight and tail light.
Suspension seatpost & SR MTB saddle.
Custom fenders.
Custom Kydex "carbon" skid Plate.
+ Lots of other mods & parts.
42mph ~4 kW.
0-20mph in ~2.5sec

 

[AHicks]

I have an idea of how you have the controller set up. I'm assuming this is more about braking power than charging the battery? How well does the regen work when you leave the house with a fully charged battery? Last, just wondering if you feel the regen is worth it for you/your riding style? Worthwhile, or no?

 

[JTK77]

I have an idea of how you have the controller set up. I'm assuming this is more about braking power than charging the battery? How well does the regen work when you leave the house with a fully charged battery? Last, just wondering if you feel the regen is worth it for you/your riding style? Worthwhile, or no?

I have the bike currently under some work. Will be functional shortly when I'm back from vacation ( I'm on up North doing some eMTB).
My main purpose was to make the clutch More durable for the high 4000w power. Secondary to help on braking. Regen should not function when battery is full.

 

[JTK77]

4000w

Now peak (couple of seconds) 114 battery amps @60v.

 

[JTK77]

When they are not overheated and well greased they seem to hold quite nicely.

 

[Boosted]

When they are not overheated and well greased they seem to hold quite nicely.

JTK77 appreciate your write ups on the bafang motors, very helpful

When you blew the stock G062 @ 4kw, how high above 130 phase did you go? Did the clutch blow due to high speed top end, or low speed torque? Wondering if its primarily a volt/speed or phase current related stress.

Are you able to pedal the bike with the welded clutch or is there too much drag with the motor off? What phase current are you running with the 114amp battery setup currently?

What is your greasing interval for "well greased"?

Do you sell or plan to sell the new L10 60a controller?

Sweet ride and thank you!

 

[JTK77]

JTK77 appreciate your write ups on the bafang motors, very helpful

When you blew the stock G062 @ 4kw, how high above 130 phase did you go? Did the clutch blow due to high speed top end, or low speed torque? Wondering if its primarily a volt/speed or phase current related stress.

Are you able to pedal the bike with the welded clutch or is there too much drag with the motor off? What phase current are you running with the 114amp battery setup currently?

What is your greasing interval for "well greased"?

Do you sell or plan to sell the new L10 60a controller?

Sweet ride and thank you!

The motor had already some mods on it when the glue on magnets failed after some 1000 miles at ~4kw mark. Not sure of exact phase amps but 130+ something.
The clutch has not failed but I have modded it to prevent failure. I tested regen braking. It works but as it massively adds strain to relatively small axle flats and torque arms so I choose not to. The welded clutch does not add that much drag to the bike. At least not in speeds relevant going unassisted.
Latest I had my phase wire/motor wires fried. Those wires where upgraded to some extent but not enough (knew that). After about 1000 miles at ~6+kW peak they failed. I'm running the controller at 114A battery amps Peak so phase amps are 200+ Peak. Knobby tyres 0-30mph (GPS) is 3.9s.
Currently planning water cooling and axle mod to accomodate better wiring.
I do cleaning and regreasing ~ 2 times per year.
I have only 48-60v 40A kits avalable

 

[Boosted]

The motor had already some mods on it when the glue on magnets failed after some 1000 miles at ~4kw mark. Not sure of exact phase amps but 130+ something.
The clutch has not failed but I have modded it to prevent failure. I tested regen braking. It works but as it massively adds strain to relatively small axle flats and torque arms so I choose not to. The welded clutch does not add that much drag to the bike. At least not in speeds relevant going unassisted.
Latest I had my phase wire/motor wires fried. Those wires where upgraded to some extent but not enough (knew that). After about 1000 miles at ~6+kW peak they failed. I'm running the controller at 114A battery amps Peak so phase amps are 200+ Peak. Knobby tyres 0-30mph (GPS) is 3.9s.
Currently planning water cooling and axle mod to accomodate better wiring.
I do cleaning and regreasing ~ 2 times per year.
I have only 48-60v 40A kits avalable

Great info thank you. Helps a lot to know the failure point of these components.

So in summary - G062 L1019 connector maximum < = 120 phase amps (@60v) due to magnet glue failure- did this occur after a long hill climb/extremely hot motor?

For folks running g060 with the Z916- curious what the maximum phase currents you have pushed through these stock connectors, perhaps 100a?

What gauge were the wires you melted at 200a phase?

 

[JTK77]

Great info thank you. Helps a lot to know the failure point of these components.

So in summary - G062 L1019 connector maximum < = 120 phase amps (@60v) due to magnet glue failure- did this occur after a long hill climb/extremely hot motor?

For folks running g060 with the Z916- curious what the maximum phase currents you have pushed through these stock connectors, perhaps 100a?

What gauge were the wires you melted at 200a phase?

Magnet glue failed after very regular route. Not too much hills but speed and acceleration. 1000 Miles similar riding in The past. Winding temps ~100°C, Air cooling effective. Peak phase 130+(maybe even 150).
L1019 connector with 4mm2 wiring has not failed. Only wire part (~ 4 inches) that goes through axle is bit thinner (can't remember exact size) and failed. Thicker wire does not fit through as stock. I will do mods to fit 9-10Avg. I will also douple phases from controller to motor with additional MT60.

 

[Boosted]

Magnet glue failed after very regular route. Not too much hills but speed and acceleration. 1000 Miles similar riding in The past. Winding temps ~100°C, Air cooling effective. Peak phase 130+(maybe even 150).
L1019 connector with 4mm2 wiring has not failed. Only wire part (~ 4 inches) that goes through axle is bit thinner (can't remember exact size) and failed. Thicker wire does not fit through as stock. I will do mods to fit 9-10Avg. I will also douple phases from controller to motor with additional MT60.

Running G062 @ 60v, 50a, 90 phase (~100nm torque). Stripped to complete failure the nylon gears within 50 miles. Upgrading to steel, are you still running nylon without issues?
How many watts or phase amps were you able to reliably put through the SMALL (bafang) L1019 motor cable before it melted? Did it just melt at 6kw, or did it melt sooner?
The BIG 4mm2 L1019 was good up to 6kw? Was this the grin model or from aliexpress?
Do you ever go off road with the vented motor?

Just trying to be like you- Thanks man.

 

[JTK77]

Running G062 @ 60v, 50a, 90 phase (~100nm torque). Stripped to complete failure the nylon gears within 50 miles. Upgrading to steel, are you still running nylon without issues?
How many watts or phase amps were you able to reliably put through the SMALL (bafang) L1019 motor cable before it melted? Did it just melt at 6kw, or did it melt sooner?
The BIG 4mm2 L1019 was good up to 6kw? Was this the grin model or from aliexpress?
Do you ever go off road with the vented motor?

Just trying to be like you- Thanks man.

Yes, running still stock nylon gears. They hold well if not subjected to extensive heat. I have vented the motor and using SHC100 grease. Also I do avoid extreme acceleration from death stop.
First thing that failed was the gluing of rotor magnets. That was after some time running at 60A (~130A phase) and couple times windings hitting 120°C peak. Now reglued with much much stronger heat cured Permabond ET5441.
Short section of phase wire inside axle melted after using throttle only (Gears Frozen in Finnish Winter) at 114A (200+phase amps) Peak.
L1019 4mm2 phase wire do heat easily with this power but do hold If high power is used only shortly.
I'm currently modifying the motor to have circulating liquid cooling and 8awg phase wiring. I have now doupled controller to motor phase wiring with additional 4mm2 Set with MT60 connector.
I do have winding temp logging in use too.
I ride this bike mostly on roads and easy trails. I have enduro bike (Haibike Nduro Xduro 8.0) for serious MTB riding.

 

[Boosted]

Yes, running still stock nylon gears. They hold well if not subjected to extensive heat. I have vented the motor and using SHC100 grease. Also I do avoid extreme acceleration from death stop.
First thing that failed was the gluing of rotor magnets. That was after some time running at 60A (~130A phase) and couple times windings hitting 120°C peak. Now reglued with much much stronger heat cured Permabond ET5441.
Short section of phase wire inside axle melted after using throttle only (Gears Frozen in Finnish Winter) at 114A (200+phase amps) Peak.
L1019 4mm2 phase wire do heat easily with this power but do hold If high power is used only shortly.
I'm currently modifying the motor to have circulating liquid cooling and 8awg phase wiring. I have now doupled controller to motor phase wiring with additional 4mm2 Set with MT60 connector.
I do have winding temp logging in use too.
I ride this bike mostly on roads and easy trails. I have enduro bike (Haibike Nduro Xduro 8.0) for serious MTB riding.

Great info, thank you. I appreciate the glue spec info as well- I may be needing that soon. You have a legit setup.

Most of us dont have temp sensors, and of course winding temp are super important. Can you give us a correlation to what 120c winding temps feel like on the motor case- are you able to leave your finger/hand on the motor case for 1 second before taking it off, or 2 seconds, or is the motor case too hot to even touch or how hot does the case get at 120c- just so someone without a temp sensor, would know when the motor has reached peak temps?

I cant believe your running 230nm torque thats nuts!!! on nylons none the less. Monster.

 

[JTK77]

Great info, thank you. I appreciate the glue spec info as well- I may be needing that soon. You have a legit setup.

Most of us dont have temp sensors, and of course winding temp are super important. Can you give us a correlation to what 120c winding temps feel like on the motor case- are you able to leave your finger/hand on the motor case for 1 second before taking it off, or 2 seconds, or is the motor case too hot to even touch or how hot does the case get at 120c- just so someone without a temp sensor, would know when the motor has reached peak temps?

I cant believe your running 230nm torque thats nuts!!! on nylons none the less. Monster.

Casing temperature does not really follow the winding temp that much. Long steady ride makes least difference between the two.
I've seen >60°C difference (IR measurement from casing). Winding temp 100°C and I can keep my hand on the motor casing as long as I wish.
This power gives 0-30mph in 3.9s.

 

[JTK77]

In process still...

 

[Boosted]

In process still...
View attachment 153316

I may try your venting eventually, I’m tempted. Curious to see how the cooling turns out.

My G062.750 rig. Gonna go try to melt another set of nylons while the steel gears are in the mail.

 

[Boosted]

In process still...
View attachment 153316

You have the most beastly G062 ive seen yet. What a monster. Following to see the liquid cooling for sure!!

Trying to decide if venting is worth trying? Would you say the venting helps by 25%, 33%, 50%, 100%?
Did you only vent the rotor side, or does the cog side/gear side also have vent holes?
Is that some type of tape on the vent hole?
How hot do you let your windings get at maximum? 120-130-140-150?

 

[JTK77]

You have the most beastly G062 ive seen yet. What a monster. Following to see the liquid cooling for sure!!

Trying to decide if venting is worth trying? Would you say the venting helps by 25%, 33%, 50%, 100%?
Did you only vent the rotor side, or does the cog side/gear side also have vent holes?
Is that some type of tape on the vent hole?
How hot do you let your windings get at maximum? 120-130-140-150?

Thanks. Venting can help upto 100% but I'm not sure how big the effect now actually is. I would guess in range of 50%....both sides drilled identically. Aluminium tape is temporary thing. I will remove those. Maximum recorded peak winding temp is ~125°C (105-110°C peaks typically). Goal is to bring peak down closer to 100°C.

 

[Boosted]

Thanks. Venting can help upto 100% but I'm not sure how big the effect now actually is. I would guess in range of 50%....both sides drilled identically. Aluminium tape is temporary thing. I will remove those. Maximum recorded peak winding temp is ~125°C (105-110°C peaks typically). Goal is to bring peak down closer to 100°C.

Your information is invaluable- thank you.

When it got the hottest around 125c (max temp), do you have any idea how hot the motor case was around this time or just after this time- were you able to put your hand on it for ~1 second at this temp?

On a long ride (continuous) 20-30mph it seems I can maintain around 800-1100 motor watts, perhaps 1200-1500 battery watts average- any higher than this causes a heat buildup / overheat. Do you have any idea on what numbers you are averaging or how many watts you can run consistently, to give an idea of how much of a difference the venting makes?

Asking the same thing a different way- Grin simulator shows wide open on flat ground at ~40mph would be around 1700-2000 motor watts and 2000-2500 battery watts. Could you go wide open all day long on a flat highway without overheating, for example? Grin says the unvented motor should overheat after 10-15 mins in this scenario.

 

[tomjasz]

Gonna go try to melt another set of nylons while the steel gears are in the mail.

I ran steel gears for 10 minutes. Horrible noise. LOOK AT ME

 

[Boosted]

I ran steel gears for 10 minutes. Horrible noise. LOOK AT ME

Running the 2/3 nylon 1/3 steel gears. No new noise as of yet.

I have something weird going on. Opened the brand new G062 up after running high torque to find the stock nylon gears entirely stripped. Also had a grinding noise, but only at max torque (low/mid rpm) it almost sound as if its running sensorless, but it appears to be something clutch related. Figured it was the gears, but still have the same noise after replacing the gears with both nylon and steel. Then I had another complete motor failure, and found out I broke the feather key/magnet. So I put a new one in, still abusing it hard at 120nm. It works good but I have that weird grinding sound when I draw 80-100nm torque, but its not gear related beacuse it happened with the OEM gears, and replacement nylon gears. Cant be something I did from taking apart the motor, because it happened on the brand new motor. Work in progress.