Powerful Fat Tire E-bike w/ Torque sensor from Juiced Bikes

[raymann112]

Looks like shipping date has moved out to July. Don't want to wait that long!

You scared me for a second. I thought it was for all orders, just went to the site and saw it was for another running.

 

[tomjasz]

Panasonic NCR18650GA cells according to their website. I'm hoping that I can upgrade to the 21Ah battery when they get them in stock.

There's so any mixed reports on the GA...I'm not sure what to think.

 

[Brooklyn Tony]

You scared me for a second. I thought it was for all orders, just went to the site and saw it was for another running.

When I called up earlier in March they seemed to have a lot of slots for May order (2 months wait). Now in mid April they're 3 months away. Grrr. You snooze, you lose.

There's so any mixed reports on the GA...I'm not sure what to think.

What sort of issues have come up? They seem to be doing okay on my LED headlamps (almost 2 years now).

 

[tomjasz]

When I called up earlier in March they seemed to have a lot of slots for May order (2 months wait). Now in mid April they're 3 months away. Grrr. You snooze, you lose.


What sort of issues have come up? They seem to be doing okay on my LED headlamps (almost 2 years now).

LED headlamp and use for high demand controller are very different applications. Some beieve, based on testing they will not have as many service cycles as some better suited cells. Unfortunately we'll need more time to see the results. A number of pack builders who build bike packs not just sell them, completely avoid their use. There were several discussions on Endless Sphere. Not without controvercy. I have a small pack to try but it's just going into limited service in a low demand, 15A controller. Time will tell.

 

[tomjasz]

I did this bit of a cur and pastes. I think the application here may be fine, but pushing this cell may well mean a shotrter pack life than many hope for. FWIW.

"Looks like em3ev are getting the new LG 3.5 ah 18650 cell in the coming weeks. Is this basically the same as the GA cell?"
http://lygte-info.dk/.../batter.../Common18650comparator.php

Battery test-review 18650 comparator

LYGTE-INFO.DK

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
"Haha.. why'd you test at 20A? i bet you could have cooked a small bird's egg on that cell afterwards..
The GA is an impressive cell on paper until you look at the capacity degredation curve."

"I haven't seen data for the newer LG, but i'd be interested in looking at that as an alternative based on that alone."
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)https://www.nkon.nl/.../Specification%20INR18650MJ1%2022... I

"Oh geez, the LG is a gimpier cell ( output wise ) . But you get 400 cycles to 80%, whereas with the GA it's more like 125 cycles to 80%
Yuck --v ( Panasonic GA degradation curve )"
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
Like · Reply · November 2, 2016 at 12:33pm

 

[Dunbar]

That 125 cycle life number is based on a 100% DOD, 6A discharge rate per cell, which would equate to 36 amps of system draw in the 6P configuration of the 21Ah battery. On the Cross Current each cell would only see a maximum of ~2.2A continuous (13A total system power). The Hyper Fat can do 31A/1500W continuous which is ~5.2A per cell but it's unlikely you could sustain those power levels for very long without crashing LOL. If you watch Tora's latest video he's able cruise pretty comfortably at ~28mph with the bike limited to 1000W and his average power usage is certainly lower than that. I generally charge to 70-80% and don't go lower than 20% so I wouldn't be too worried about cycle life on these GA cells. Those DIY guys can run some pretty crazy power levels but I wouldn't generalize their concerns to more modestly powered e-bikes.

 

[tomjasz]

Others put it at 300 in eBike use, a few ar 250. It remains to be seen. I have a pack but it won't be pushed hard. I'm still on the wait and see side. I still have 22p and 26f packs that are just fine. A couple of 29e as well. Two pf two new hg2 in build. And all are proving to be just fine for a lower power user. All except the Mini PF isn't that happy at 30A.

Although the more i learn the less i know. The lack of agreement among builders is as varied as politics, and with an equal numbers of nutters.

 

[raymann112]

so its coming close to summer and I'm planning a vacation for memorial day week, any rough idea of a delivery date cause I live in an apartment and I have to be home for delivery.

 

[willie2]

Are there any close up shots of the wiring to the rear hub? Curious if there are threaded disconnects to make it easier to remove the rear wheel to change the tire.

I didn't notice any mentions of regenerative braking. Anybody know if it's available and adjustable to different amounts of regen?

 

[memberseven]

Are there any close up shots of the wiring to the rear hub? Curious if there threaded disconnects to make it easier to remove the rear wheel to change the tire.

I didn't notice any mentions of regenerative braking. Anybody know if it's available and adjustable to different amounts of regen?

There's no regen. And the rear wheel is not a quick release.

 

[Tora Harris]

There's no regen. And the rear wheel is not a quick release.

Are there any close up shots of the wiring to the rear hub? Curious if there are threaded disconnects to make it easier to remove the rear wheel to change the tire.

I didn't notice any mentions of regenerative braking. Anybody know if it's available and adjustable to different amounts of regen?

Regenerative Braking:

There is no regenerative braking on the HF. From our experiences it provides little to no benefit for such light weight electric vehicles. At best it may save a little wear on the brake pads.

Additionally to do regen, the motor must be direct drive. This produces cogging and will slow you down. The other option is to remove the clutch, and we have tried that. The results are not a good riding experience.

The conclusion is that regen is not necessary. For example, if you descended for 5 minutes downhill and use the regen all the way down, thats a lot of downhills, but you will have effectively just put the bike on the charger for 5 min. Hardly enough to budge such a large battery pack.

On the other hand a very heavy vehicle 3000+ lbs with a massive battery will have a lot of benefit from regen. Especially from many starts and stops and the huge pack can be charged quickly.

Rear Tire Changes:

Difficulty of removing the rear wheel has been overblown. Now we have also sourced a special tool to make it easier to change the rear wheel. This item and more will pop up on the online store as we build out the infrastructure for the HF and other high powered bikes.

 

[tomjasz]

You seem to have a nice product. And I understand not having regen braking. So many of these ideas come up from reading and recommendations and opinions become facts, rather than options and choices. Regen IS really quite a nice feature, but a geared motor has the advantages of being able to do more climbing than a direct drive. I have regen on one bike but it's the worst climber bike I own. I like the lower resistance of my bike with a clutch.

How unfortunate that those with poor mechanical skills have made the wheel removal another such opinion. Good land. It must be frustrating on some levels. I see a similar event with Bafang mid drives. One article was written about the failure of the plastic gear in the motor. It is on a popular site that gets hits by google with high frequency. But when you talk to resellers and those with lots go BBSxx experience you find it's not one of the drives frequent failures. These "problems" sadly have a life of their own.

 

[willie2]

Tora, thanks for the photos! I realized my question wasn't very well constructed. I was asking if there were wire disconnects for the motor which there appear to be based on your photo. On one of my earlier hub motor ebikes (a Polaris model) there was no way to disconnect the motor. Everything was permanently wired in which made changing the rear tire very difficult. My Stromer has disconnects on the wires so changing the rear tire isn't that big of a deal.

Regarding regen, it's a nice to have but it certainly isn't a deciding factor for me.

If you're looking for ideas for further videos, something covering the controller and how boost levels are selected would be nice. Keep up the good work.

 

[Dunbar]

I think the custom wrench is a cool idea and will buy one along with the new display. I will say that, having removed the rear wheel on my Cross Current a few times, it's not something I enjoy. Unbolting the rear bolts is the easy part. It's wrestling the big, heavy wheel in/out of the dropouts while manipulating the rear derailleur and lining up the disc rotor that can be frustrating. The slotted axle is only designed to go in one way. The same criticism can be made of for all rear hub motor e-bikes AFAIK. It's one big reason I installed tires with very good puncture protection. If I ever flat the rear tire on a ride I will just order an Uber SUV to drive me home...

 

[Brooklyn Tony]

Dunbar, What tires are you running? I remember in the past Gatorskins, Armadillos, and RibMo were popular anti puncture tires. I'd probably go with a thorn resistant tube as well.. it'd probably add a pound to the rear wheel though

 

[Tora Harris]

Tora, thanks for the photos! I realized my question wasn't very well constructed. I was asking if there were wire disconnects for the motor which there appear to be based on your photo. On one of my earlier hub motor ebikes (a Polaris model) there was no way to disconnect the motor. Everything was permanently wired in which made changing the rear tire very difficult. My Stromer has disconnects on the wires so changing the rear tire isn't that big of a deal.

Regarding regen, it's a nice to have but it certainly isn't a deciding factor for me.

If you're looking for ideas for further videos, something covering the controller and how boost levels are selected would be nice. Keep up the good work.

Regen is nice so you can answer the question "can you charge while pedaling?" with a YES! The HF uses much thicker phase wires for the motor so it connects up a little differently from the CC. Many old school e-bikes had wires that joined up in strange locations, making it insanely difficult to change the tire.

Assist modes selection on the LCD display is quite simple, arrow up for higher assist, arrow down for lower assist. It's set now for ECO -> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> Sport. We will show more of how it works soon.

 

[Dunbar]

Dunbar, What tires are you running? I remember in the past Gatorskins, Armadillos, and RibMo were popular anti puncture tires. I'd probably go with a thorn resistant tube as well.. it'd probably add a pound to the rear wheel though

I'm running 29x2.0 Schwalbe Marathon Almotion tires. The roads are pretty good around here so I went with the lower rolling resistance Almotions. If you need maximum protection the Marathon and Marathon Plus tires are even better. They all have a 3-5mm thick puncture guard so a thorn resistant tube becomes sort of moot at that point. They are all heavy tires but surprisingly my Almotions weighed about 100g/ea. lighter than the stock Kendas.

 

[tomjasz]

I recommend buying the 72V Cycle Satiator over the 48V version. It won't charge as fast (5A max vs. 8A) but it will charge up to 96V systems so it should be more future proof. I have one and think it's well worth the money especially if you're getting one of the bigger (more expensive) batteries. I normally charge my 17.4aH battery to 80% at a slow 1A charge rate using my Cycle Satiator.

I chose the satiator originally because I could also do a 12V SLA. Something the 72V can't do. I do not agree that 72V is the coming way. I think there will be some serious problems moving up to that voltage. It's now in the danger range for anyone making a mistake in handling. There's really no earthly good reason for a eBike to be 72V. Not when 48V can drive a bike at speeds above the capacity of most bikes to safely stop. I did buy a 72V to experiment with. I may keep it and pitch all the cheap finless and unreliable luna chargers.

 

[Dunbar]

The way I look at it is the 72V Satiator is more future-proof than the 48V version (which only charges up to 60V.) So if system voltages do continue to increase (like you see on electric scooters) than I have a charger that could easily last 10-15 years. Even if e-bikes stay <60V I'm still covered in both scenarios. It is true that the 72V version isn't ideal for systems <48V. If you want to charge systems <48V the 48V Satiator is a better option. The 48V version also does 8A so it gives you the option to charge faster. It's better for the battery to charge slow if you aren't in a hurry.

My main point is that if you're in the market the 72V is the better buy at this point IMO. If you already own a 48V Satiator I wouldn't recommend upgrading at this point.

 

[tomjasz]

The way I look at it is the 72V Satiator is more future-proof than the 48V version (which only charges up to 60V.) So if system voltages do continue to increase (like you see on electric scooters) than I have a charger that could easily last 10-15 years. Even if e-bikes stay <60V I'm still covered in both scenarios. It is true that the 72V version isn't ideal for systems <48V. If you want to charge systems <48V the 48V Satiator is a better option. The 48V version also does 8A so it gives you the option to charge faster. It's better for the battery to charge slow if you aren't in a hurry.

My main point is that if you're in the market the 72V is the better buy at this point IMO. If you already own a 48V Satiator I wouldn't recommend upgrading at this point.

And yet the existing 2 wheel EV's are higher power packs than the 72V will serve. I'll use mine for 36, 48, and 52V packs as I'm phasing out the 24V pack and now have a dedicated high end charger for 12V. Having two Satiators is the best backup I can think of. And they pay for themselves. Good chat! Thanks!

BTW any 2 wheel EV with any range will more likely be 96VDC-118VDC like ZERO and other builder. Unless peopler happy with 72V and the kind of range we see with bicycles.