Poll - Did you upgrade from Cadence Sensing to Torque Sensing?

[Tom@WashDC]

I'm looking forward to seeing the results

 

[AlanDB]

My wife purchased our first e-bike which was a 2017 Blix Aveny, cadence sensing hub drive. I rode it enough to know when I purchased a second e-bike exclusively for me, I wanted a torque sensing mid drive which would have a more natural feeling assist. I selected the Gazelle Arroyo with the torque sensing Bosch Performance motor. I have been very happy with the Gazelle.

 

[PSm]

Cadence sensing has worked great for me, and I have no need to change. Easy enough to adjust PAS levels, though I did do an aftetmarket upgrade (EggRider) that allowed to customize power at each PAS level, and modify max speed at which assist drops off.

 

[Taylor57]

I have had both. There is a place for both. For effortless cruising around, the cadence has been great. For a little better exercise and more of a bike riding experience, the torque stands out. I do like the aspect of torque that rewards the rider for putting effort in. I'm hoping the torque will help me burn a few more calories!

 

[harryS]

Torque sensing (T/S) has pros and cons. My wife and I have had cadence sensor bikes for years, but recently added two T/S mid drive kit bikes.

The T/S bikes use about 20% less battery power to cover the same distance. That's not magic. The rider has to make up that extra 20% by pedalling harder, Meanwhile, my wife is not going to pedal harder, so instead of her typrical 12 mph speed, she's riding along at 10 mph on the T/S bike. I'm dropping back and waiting. This was no good. I boosted the assist settings on her bike in Eco so she burns more power but keeps up better now. She still uses less power than me because she's 60 lbs lughter.

Today, after a round of golf I was tired, but still wanted to get in a ride today before five days of rain comes in. We took the cadence sensor bikes because I was tired. Like Taylor57 said, there are times you want effortless riding. By the way, she noticed we were cruising out at 15 mph with the wind behind us, and we still held 12 mph coming back.

Meanwhile, riding my T/S bike has toughened me up a bit. Yesterday's ride was on my unpowered bike, something I wouldn't have wanted to do in past years.

 

[High Plains Rider]

Torque sensing (T/S) has pros and cons. My wife and I have had cadence sensor bikes for years, but recently added two T/S mid drive kit bikes.

The T/S bikes use about 20% less battery power to cover the same distance. That's not magic. The rider has to make up that extra 20% by pedalling harder, Meanwhile, my wife is not going to pedal harder, so instead of her typrical 12 mph speed, she's riding along at 10 mph on the T/S bike. I'm dropping back and waiting. This was no good. I boosted the assist settings on her bike in Eco so she burns more power but keeps up better now. She still uses less power than me because she's 60 lbs lughter.

Today, after a round of golf I was tired, but still wanted to get in a ride today before five days of rain comes in. We took the cadence sensor bikes because I was tired. Like Taylor57 said, there are times you want effortless riding. By the way, she noticed we were cruising out at 15 mph with the wind behind us, and we still held 12 mph coming back.

Meanwhile, riding my T/S bike has toughened me up a bit. Yesterday's ride was on my unpowered bike, something I wouldn't have wanted to do in past years.

I’m considering moving to a torque sensor ebike with my next purchase, however I have one question. If the sensor knows when you begin to move the pedal and immediately gives you pedal assist, is a throttle needed?

 

[mfgrep]

I’m considering moving to a torque sensor ebike with my next purchase, however I have one question. If the sensor knows when you begin to move the pedal and immediately gives you pedal assist, is a throttle needed?

Nope. So long as the rider understands that you must be pedaling to obtain the assist. At differing assist levels....with a torque sensor you won't be getting much assist output if you are not providing input (pedaling).
With a mid-drive torque sensor bike....proper gearing and cadence are necessary to obtain real efficiency.

It is far more difficult to describe than to experience. I suggest that you demo a mid drive bike with torque sensor.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I’m considering moving to a torque sensor ebike with my next purchase, however I have one question. If the sensor knows when you begin to move the pedal and immediately gives you pedal assist, is a throttle needed?

my first mid rive if I rested a foot o the pedal at a light it would jump forward it was so sensitive. my bosch is not as bad but it will go if my leg is feeling heavy that day. but then ever systems its instant as soon as you apply pressure.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I’m considering moving to a torque sensor ebike with my next purchase, however I have one question. If the sensor knows when you begin to move the pedal and immediately gives you pedal assist, is a throttle needed?

I ride a torque-sensing rear hub drive with a progressive throttle. The combo adds up to a very flexible power delivery system, as the throttle just adds instant power, up to full power, to whatever the pedal assist is doing at the moment.

Is the throttle needed? Can't answer that for you, but I wouldn't part with mine. It protects my dodgy knees from acceleration loads, squirts me through dicey traffic situations, and pushes me over short obstacles like roots or steep driveways without changing gears or assist level. And that's just the beginning.

To be clear, I always pedal with effort — usually at PAS 1/9. In my hands, the throttle's just a very useful adjunct to the pedal assist, typically used 1-2 seconds at a time.

Could I get by without a throttle? Sure, but why? To spend more time adjusting pedal assist? To come home with sore knees? To get in fewer riding miles before bilateral knee replacements? To compromise safety in my high-traffic environment? No thanks.

 

[High Plains Rider]

I ride a torque-sensing rear hub drive with a progressive throttle. The combo adds up to a very flexible power delivery system, as the throttle just adds instant power, up to full power, to whatever the pedal assist is doing at the moment.

Is the throttle needed? Can't answer that for you, but I wouldn't part with mine. It protects my dodgy knees from acceleration loads, squirts me through dicey traffic situations, and pushes me over short obstacles like roots or steep driveways without changing gears or assist level. And that's just the beginning.

To be clear, I always pedal with effort — usually at PAS 1/9. In my hands, the throttle's just a very useful adjunct to the pedal assist, typically used 1-2 seconds at a time.

Could I get by without a throttle? Sure, but why? To spend more time adjusting pedal assist? To come home with sore knees? To get in fewer riding miles before bilateral knee replacements? To compromise safety in my high-traffic environment? No thanks.

I ride a torque-sensing rear hub drive with a progressive throttle. The combo adds up to a very flexible power delivery system, as the throttle just adds instant power, up to full power, to whatever the pedal assist is doing at the moment.

Is the throttle needed? Can't answer that for you, but I wouldn't part with mine. It protects my dodgy knees from acceleration loads, squirts me through dicey traffic situations, and pushes me over short obstacles like roots or steep driveways without changing gears or assist level. And that's just the beginning.

To be clear, I always pedal with effort — usually at PAS 1/9. In my hands, the throttle's just a very useful adjunct to the pedal assist, typically used 1-2 seconds at a time.

Could I get by without a throttle? Sure, but why? To spend more time adjusting pedal assist? To come home with sore knees? To get in fewer riding miles before bilateral knee replacements? To compromise safety in my high-traffic environment? No thanks.

If I’m honest with myself, I mostly use the throttle to accelerate from a standing position. Aside from out running an occasional dog, I never use it, but it’s a nice feature to have. I’m looking at a few ebikes that are meeting my criteria, however some of them do not have throttles.

 

[Taylor57]

I ride a torque-sensing rear hub drive with a progressive throttle. The combo adds up to a very flexible power delivery system, as the throttle just adds instant power, up to full power, to whatever the pedal assist is doing at the moment.

Is the throttle needed? Can't answer that for you, but I wouldn't part with mine. It protects my dodgy knees from acceleration loads, squirts me through dicey traffic situations, and pushes me over short obstacles like roots or steep driveways without changing gears or assist level. And that's just the beginning.

To be clear, I always pedal with effort — usually at PAS 1/9. In my hands, the throttle's just a very useful adjunct to the pedal assist, typically used 1-2 seconds at a time.

Could I get by without a throttle? Sure, but why? To spend more time adjusting pedal assist? To come home with sore knees? To get in fewer riding miles before bilateral knee replacements? To compromise safety in my high-traffic environment? No thanks.

We've kicked this dead horse now for a long time, but I agree with Jeremy-the throttle is a must have for me. I'm not as strong and agile as I used to be and perhaps getting longer in the tooth. My throttle has pulled my out of tight situations like starting from dead stop on slight uphill, squeezing through narrow openings and just taking a rest from pedaling on a longer ride. Of course the anti-throttle crowd will have their arguments why we are wrong!

 

[mfgrep]

We've kicked this dead horse now for a long time, but I agree with Jeremy-the throttle is a must have for me. I'm not as strong and agile as I used to be and perhaps getting longer in the tooth. My throttle has pulled my out of tight situations like starting from dead stop on slight uphill, squeezing through narrow openings and just taking a rest from pedaling on a longer ride. Of course the anti-throttle crowd will have their arguments why we are wrong!

You make good points. I personally don't desire a throttle. I don't have one and don't miss it. Every rider will have different requirements, abilities, wants and needs.

OP has been given some food for thought

 

[PedalUma]

My first three eBikes were cadence sensors. The first two had thumb throttles. The third could be ghost pedaled on its kilowatt motor so I didn't install the throttle. That one was so stupid that I got rid of it by week three. Since 2019 all of my bikes have been torque sensor bikes. With just a couple of exceptions. Very few of those have had throttles unless the person is disabled. Of course the torque sensor bikes also have cadence sensors. Because there are 24 magnets they must be pedaled up to 15 degrees before the power starts to kick in (360/24=15). Here is a cadence sensor BBSO2 build without a thumb throttle because it too can be ghost pedaled, so the throttle is not needed.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I ride a torque-sensing rear hub drive with a progressive throttle. The combo adds up to a very flexible power delivery system, as the throttle just adds instant power, up to full power, to whatever the pedal assist is doing at the moment.

Is the throttle needed? Can't answer that for you, but I wouldn't part with mine. It protects my dodgy knees from acceleration loads, squirts me through dicey traffic situations, and pushes me over short obstacles like roots or steep driveways without changing gears or assist level. And that's just the beginning.

To be clear, I always pedal with effort — usually at PAS 1/9. In my hands, the throttle's just a very useful adjunct to the pedal assist, typically used 1-2 seconds at a time.

Could I get by without a throttle? Sure, but why? To spend more time adjusting pedal assist? To come home with sore knees? To get in fewer riding miles before bilateral knee replacements? To compromise safety in my high-traffic environment? No thanks.

my problem is I have never driven so a throttle is not intuitive to me. peddling harder is. so is shifting. so a throttle really isn to needed for me. I can manage with my feet. I would not even think of a throttle in a fast movement moment.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

I’m considering moving to a torque sensor ebike with my next purchase, however I have one question. If the sensor knows when you begin to move the pedal and immediately gives you pedal assist, is a throttle needed?

I've not needed my throttle since I got torque sensing a 16 months ago, but I do have one.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Lots of elevation change on my commute to work. I feel a torque sensor might be more efficient. I’m researching what it would take to get a BB torque sensor added to my bike. I see ones that would fit, but I might need a new controller for that. Hmm, I wouldn’t mind going to a baserunner. Then I’d need a CA. Hmmm. I’m still looking at everything.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

Didn’t even know what a torque or cadence sensor was when I bought my ebike so have a cadence sensor and gets the job done. I do plan to get torque sensing because I don’t feel in getting a good enough workout now because if I go lower assist I’m kind of fighting the bike and it’s real unnatural to pedal. Without assist it’s heavy and barely even unable to pedal even on low gearing, it’s really only good for as an ebike on assist 2 out of 5 and sometimes 3 of 5.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

My Monte Capro has both torque and cadence sensor, I looked up technical specifications on biktrix website.
I think @Tom@WashDC has mistaken the difference of Cadence and PAS.
My 1st gen aventon level has Pedal Assist Sensor it allows me to use throttle switch up to 20mph and cut off but if I continue to pedal the PAS will engage and let me ghost pedal to 31mph.
My Monte Capro m620 , cadence sensor measures rotation of crank and traslatate to calories burn. Tourqe sensor measures pressure applied and motor assist required.

Rome, my apologies, allow me to clarify my question.
Electric bikes all have a PAS (Pedal Assist System)
In a "Cadence" controlled PAS mode, the power delivered to the motor varies with the speed of the pedal cranks. Like my first gen Aventon Level, or BBSHD Fat Bike. Cadence is defined by bike Radar as "the number of revolutions your pedals (cranks) make per minute as you ride"

"Broadly speaking pedal assist systems fall into two categories, basic PAS sensors which detect just the speed at which the cranks are turning (Cadence Sensors), and Torque Sensors which also sense how hard the rider is pushing on the pedals (Torque Sensing)." Like on my Bafang Ultra.

With the basic PAS sensors (Cadence), the control electronics only knows how fast you are spinning the cranks, but it does not know how much force you are actually applying. A Torque Sensor measures the force that the rider is applying to the pedals, and amplifies the rider's pedal effort. This is often expressed as a multiplier on the rider's pedal power."
~Pedal Assist Systems, Grin Technologies

There are huge differences between the two PAS types, and that is why I asked the original question. I never used the term PAS in my posting, but I asked if the respondent started with a Cadence system, did they eventually move to a Torque based system.

Rome, I believe we both have the Bafang Ultra? I understand that the electronics do track the cadence, but the power assist amplification is fundamentally based on pedal pressure. I get zero assist, unless I am applying force to my pedals.

 

[PCeBiker]

Poll - Did you upgrade from Cadence Sensing to Torque Sensing?


I downgraded to no sensor at all.

Electric bikes all have a PAS (Pedal Assist System)

Not mine.
I disconnected it.

 

[mrgold35]

I have 4 rear hub cadence sensor 7-speed Rad Power ebikes (2 Radrovers/2 Radcity). I (@ 6'3" 300lbs) sometimes have a hard time matching speed on my Rover when riding with my 4'11"/125lbs spouse on her Radcity with only 5 pre-set PAS power level settings. I just tell her to ride at her comfort level and I'm always switching between PAS-2 (harder pedaling for me) or PAS-3 (more Ghost pedaling).

Recently added a tq sensing Himiway Cobra Pro 1000w/160Nm 10-speed mid-drive full suspension 4.8" fat tire ebike with throttle. Himiway has 5 PAS levels like my Radrover; but, I can match her speed with 10-speeds so much easier in PAS 1 (8-12 mph) or PAS 2 (12-17 mph). I can even set the Himiway to 1000w (1600w peak) PAS 5 and still pedal at low speeds without experiencing the Radrover cadence sensing 750w "sling shot" power effect.

It "seems" like I get more consistent exercising, longer range, and more natural pedal feel with tq sensing compared to cadence sensing. I just have to re-train my brain and treat a mid-drive like a vehicle manual transmission and ALWAYS up/down shift compared to the rear hub like an auto-transmission (sometimes just leave my rear hub rover in 5th-7th gear at any speed and use more throttle to start).