New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[pennybags]

Having done years of commuting on a bike that cruised at 28-30 mph, I can wholeheartedly agree. And I did that on a bike I geared so I had to pedal hard to get there. Lost, I think, 40 lbs in my first year on it. And I don't do throttles except for getting off the line. Halfway across the intersection from a dead stop its PAS all the way forward until the stop at the next light.

Most class 3 bikes can already do 28mph. Most bafang ones can do higher. So speed is not new.

On the long, arrow-straight streets here, commuting home, I have had drivers roll down their windows and ask about the bike as they've been trying to leave me behind for miles but I keep pace (they may pass me mid block, but I catch them at the light and I zoom off while 20 cars accordion-expand out from that same stop in a slow parade). Faster = more practical if your bike has a job and you have somewhere to go to get something done. If its for sightseeing in a promenade around the block or a trail somewhere, yeah sure speed is not a plus.

More a function of gear ratio. Speed is not new.

I am certain that @Deafcat can be taken at his word and PAS can have resistance on the pedals - since my bike has a 4kw peak across its 2wd twin (w/PAS) motors. I can pedal myself to exhaustion if I want and its not brain surgery as to how to go about it if you've got some build experience.

I hope so too. However we all should take this with a grain of salt. Just because it’s new doesn’t mean it’s solving a real problem.

Set aside all the praise (deserved). Objectively What is this getting us? Throttle only setup. Let’s not try to romanticize this.

Let Biktrix work on the PAS, put it through tests, have real comparison with existing options and see what it is. Everything else is just speculation. Let’s not force fit our expectations to what they want to do.

As Roshan said it - let the market decide. The motor is not there yet for most use cases we are discussing. It takes time, $$, adoption, refinement, a possible second generation of motor before this is a reality. Realistically expect the motor with PAS or anything close to that in production by next year this time at the earliest, assuming some adoption and testing by real world users.


Good luck

 

[Jon A]

High rpm limits coupled to great big cogs in the back equal a motor that can propel you at slow speeds and fast ones, which is the secret sauce for single speed after mixing in a generous supply of amps.

Assuming the motor has no problem with enough torque when limited to 750W, it's that "generous supply of amps" that is the next concern. Whether a motor has a 0-100 RPM range or 0-100,000 RPM range doesn't really matter after gearing--it still has performance curves proportional to that range. It's still going to start at zero from a stop and if geared for a top speed of ~40 MPH or so, climbing a technical trail up a mountain that limits your speed to ~10 MPH no matter how much power you have, will require efficiency in the lower 25% of the motor's RPM range, whatever it may be. Do you have any data like the below for the motor setups you're talking about?

Different motors will have different curves, it's very possible this motor will do better at lower RPM than the above (hopefully), but people shouldn't just take it on faith that it does. Some evidence this motor doesn't suffer from a similar curve to the below will be needed:

Obviously, I'd expect it to be better than that, but matching the low speed efficiency of a mid-drive with a single gear is a tall task. Many mid-drive (including Ultra) riders do enjoy chugging up a technical mountain trail for thousands of feet at low speeds. If this motor is going to require significantly more battery power (assuming it handles the heat OK) than the Ultra for that type of riding, that's something users considering a swap should know. Certainly not everybody goes on those sorts of rides, but some do.

My thoughts on the motor since release of info:

I think it looks fantastic. Biktrix should be commended for bringing something new to the market, especially if it can use a lot of the existing frames which are already available. For a lot of uses, it really is going to be a better choice than the Ultra (assuming price and reliability is reasonably similar). I'll keep an eye out for info as it is developed as I really would consider putting it on my bike. For me personally, a couple things would be needed first:

1) The above efficiency concerns a low speed being answered in a meaningful way.

2) Torque sensing PAS is a hard requirement for me.

3) The system needs to be sorted for full suspension use. The faster you go over rough ground, the more you need suspension. The bike I'd put it on if it fits (E06) is full suspension. I have ZERO desire to ride offroad as fast as I currently do on a hardtail. It would be miserable and less safe.

 

[Jon A]

It just looks like a heavy fat hillbilly throttle bike. This green one is what a good electric bike looks like. Anyone who thinks a clunky redneck bike is cool is not someone whose opinion I would care for. On any subject!

And naturally, it has never occurred to you that many here have less than zero interest in the types of bikes you build, or your opinion on any matter, but realize it would be in poor taste to go out of their way to say it for no good reason.

 

[TomD]

Just seems odd to me to think about this bike as a commuter. Where would you commute legally on this bike? I guess you could wait for PAS and dial it back to make it class 2 or 3, but more realistically you're looking at licensing it as a motorcycle.

 

[Deafcat]

I meant to say Deafcat.

I didn't catch that the first time, hahaha!

 

[Deafcat]

Where would you commute legally on this bike? I guess you could wait for PAS and dial it back to make it class 2 or 3

Right, in some places there is no law against throttles for assist control. Power/speed could be limited to suit. For places with no-throttle laws, they would need to wait for the PAS system.

 

[JRA]

Or here's a concept, screw the Class laws, ride responsibly when on MUP's, bike lanes, public land and around other people. But when you get to where you can let it rip go for it!

 

[TomD]

Maybe I missed it on the website but where are the details regarding PAS? Only references I can seem to find are in this topic. How far in development? What testing has been done, if any? Estimated cost? Commitment to bringing it to completion? ETA?

Great questions:

The ESC (motor controller) is a programmable FOC, also from Canadian supplier. This works in conjunction with our motor hall-sensor signal processing, and microcontroller interface.

All of this is integrated within the mid-drive/motor assembly, however the motor itself is a modular component of the whole system (this will make service work much easier than complicated nightmares from Bafang).

PAS is also it's own integrated unit, which is effectively plug-and-play with the XD system proper, via a waterproof connector and integrated mounting.

 

[scrambler]

Maybe I missed it on the website but where are the details regarding PAS? Only references I can seem to find are in this topic. How far in development? What testing has been done, if any? Estimated cost? Commitment to bringing it to completion? ETA?

As far as I know it has mostly been mentionned by Deafcat and Roshan on this thread. below is the summary

Post #1: it uses a high resolution torque+cadence PAS
Post #69: Proprietary system, can't talk much about it yet I'm afraid. I can say: It was designed to be used on other ebikes as well, not just on this particular system. It's also independent of how the signals are processed and utilized (that's more on the ESC/motor controller side of things).
Post #163: The complete PAS system will be revealed fairly soon, and should be optional by Summer.
Post #165: PAS will be an option for the Off-road edition.
Post #193: Yup, the PAS is plug and play with mount hardware already integrated in the system. Plugs into control board with waterproof higo plug.
Post #207: PAS is also it's own integrated unit, which is effectively plug-and-play with the XD system proper, via a waterproof connector and integrated mounting.
Post #221: I can't guarantee we'll be doing FS right away, but It's absolutely on our development forecast. Production priorities first and foremost with the simplest embodiment (hard-tail frames, XD system, perfect PAS).
Post #240: PAS is part of the solution here, and we're very happy with the torque-cadence system in development. It's better than anything I've used, and doesn't require unusual installation (or installation inside a bottom bracket/motor).


Roshan
Post #225: Currently, we're working on our cadence+torque sensor which will be offered as an option for those that want it. For others that just want throttle, we don't include PAS sensor.
When coupled with a PAS sensor, the ride is exhilarating. With no worries of broken chains or freehubs.

 

[TomD]

Or here's a concept, screw the Class laws, ride responsibly when on MUP's, bike lanes, public land and around other people. But when you get to where you can let it rip go for it!

No, I get that. I can't claim to ride an e-bike that is 100% class compliant, but then, it's not materially different than a class 1, 2 or 3 compliant bike for the majority use case. Not sure you could say that about this bike, well, until there is a PAS option.

 

[Dave Rocks]

How much is it?
Will I be able to buy one in Ontario, Canada?

 

[kmccune]

Something with that much power you could almost run a cvt type transmission.

It seems you could rig up a very powerful and chainless"Electric CVT system, kind of like what Ford uses on its small hybrid vehicles( gen-set pedals augmented by battery of choice, rear-drive the "CVT unit.

 

[kmccune]

@Deafcat, I have been running an experiment since January 2018 of not owning a car and only riding electric bikes everyday of the year. I unlock mine from limits for the feel and do not ride like a maniac. Although not one of my bikes, this is one of my builds that lives on a hill in San Francisco.
View attachment 114882

nice and stealthy as well.

 

[onlineaddy]

How much is it?
Will I be able to buy one in Ontario, Canada?

Retail: $5999 USD; early bird: $4999 USD

RESERVE YOUR XD for $40 USD (for CAD)

 

[Gionnirocket]

Have you even seen their patent? Lol
Perhaps look that up first.

So how are the pre-orders going?
Enough to cover your initial investment?

 

[Ken M]

Most class 3 bikes can already do 28mph. Most bafang ones can do higher. So speed is not new.

More a function of gear ratio. Speed is not new.

Pretty much all 250W Class 3 / S-pedelec ebikes do assist to 28mph but it takes significant rider effort to sustain that speed. Worst yet, if going up anything more than a 2% incline no average rider will maintain anything over 20mph on a 250W ebike. There is lies the issue with EU 250W mid-drives....while they are nice for recreational mtn biking (ie where climbing speeds are not important) they are simply not practical transportation. People using them as a transportation solution are going to work, going shopping, getting to an appointment and time is money in these use examples. I have had this conversation with far too many people that only view ebikes "recreationally"...that's fine but consider the real world issues that ebike can solve if "effective enough" for real urban mobility.

I think the Bafang Ultra (but there is not a great IGH solution for it's torque) is up to this task and I think this new dual drive is potentially even better.

 

[Ken M]

Just seems odd to me to think about this bike as a commuter. Where would you commute legally on this bike? I guess you could wait for PAS and dial it back to make it class 2 or 3, but more realistically you're looking at licensing it as a motorcycle.

Given that the 3-class legislation lacks a clear prevention of have a mode switch I see no reason it can't be a viable class 1/2/3 multimode ebike. Not like the goofy stickers are ever going to work for enforcement. Just put all of them on your ebike if you have multimode. I'm sure everyone can tell I'm just no fan of the 3-class legislation that was more likely brought to People for Bikes with a lobby money check to regulatory capture the much better federal LSEB definition in HR727 (everyone needs to understand this passed one vote short of full congressional consensus which is almost unheard of - those were state representatives voting for an LSEB to be just a bike ... we did not need 3-ass to ruin that simplicity).

 

[TomD]

Okay, let's go with LSEB definition. How does this quack like a LSEB?

 

[pennybags]

Pretty much all 250W Class 3 / S-pedelec ebikes do assist to 28mph but it takes significant rider effort to sustain that speed. Worst yet, if going up anything more than a 2% incline no average rider will maintain anything over 20mph on a 250W ebike. There is lies the issue with EU 250W mid-drives....while they are nice for recreational mtn biking (ie where climbing speeds are not important) they are simply not practical transportation. People using them as a transportation solution are going to work, going shopping, getting to an appointment and time is money in these use examples. I have had this conversation with far too many people that only view ebikes "recreationally"...that's fine but consider the real world issues that ebike can solve if "effective enough" for real urban mobility.

I think the Bafang Ultra (but there is not a great IGH solution for it's torque) is up to this task and I think this new dual drive is potentially even better.

I understand you are a fanboy and this is a cool motor. I spent the day doing a lot of "armchair research" and I dont want to say random negative stuff. I want to provide constructive feedback.

Personally speaking I can no longer find any realistic use case for the current version of the XD motor that has not already been solved with lower complexity, more flexibility, and lower TCO. I can literally not find a single scenario, including cargo, where this motor will add ANY value over existing solutions.

Here is my summary
1. Cargo - BBSHD / Ultra / Direct drive/ Other hub
2. Off road high torque - BBSHD / Ultra / Surron / TQ
3. On road - pick ANY motor.
4. Hunting (as a special case of towing) - BBSHD / Ultra from bakcou / quietkat etc
None of them require frame mods, custom rear sprockets, multiple chains. The only thing common is a $20-$50 chain that people replace every 300-1000 miles. That is IT.

I dont know why the LMX style set up didnt succeed - may be price, may be complexity, may be lack of after market support. Split / dual mid motor thing is way out there for a vast majority of riders. I know personally I wouldn't buy the XD because I am not sure having dual chain solves any problems I have encountered or plan to encounter. I dont want to ride in the middle of nowhere with a 2000 lb trailer and grill sausages and drink beer. I want to own something cool but I cant identify with a single scenario there - and trust me .. I have tried.

We all kinda agree that this is a technically innovative step that appears to be going somewhere, and we are all struggling to define where it is going. We also seem to be agreeing that it is very limited in the current form / revision, and that is perfectly fine to say. We should applaud the advancement not because it is "made in Canada" but rather because it is extremely hard to do what they have done.

I strongly feel that the current XD is still a technical demonstration and is very very likely Biktrix will (should?) pivot to a more suitable gen 2 with appropriate modifications and modifications before making them available to a broader audience. This is akin to the Tesla dancing falcon doors feature on the model X (their SUV). Unique but it is not solving any problems, while adding to TCO of the vehicle - more repairs in the long term

Most people are looking for a shiny new toy and they have a flavor for this month.

My $0.04 ( I am accounting for rampant inflation).

 

[Ken M]

Okay, let's go with LSEB definition. How does this quack like a LSEB?

The federal HR727 LSEB definition limits power above 20mph which is exactly how speed is limited on traditional bikes. The idea of an "assist limit cut-off speed" is not an actual ebike speed limit so the far better way to limit speed is to limit the power that can be provided above 20mph to what sustains a 170lb at 20mph on a level surface (that is what the constraints in the definition mean ... it was written by a PhD Electrical Engineer so this was pretty much common sense way to keep ebikes in the traditional range of bikes. Few take the time to understand it which is sad given it would be much better for the future US eBike market than parsing 3 nonsensical classes from this definition.