Motor efficiency Standard Bafang G510 Benchmark Bosch CX + 15% Bafang Archon X1 + 30%

[Acme]

I wanted to start a discussion about what people think the overall efficiency is of the standard Bosch or Shimano 36 V motors versus the standard Bafang 48v-52v and the Bafang with archon X1 controller
I have been on all three types of bikes and after a ride we had today I wanted to share my thoughts and see if people think this is correct or if they have different findings.
Today we rode approximately 15 miles with approximately 2500 feet of elevation. I rode my FREY cc with standard Bafang motor and controller my friend road a Reise Muller Bosch belt drive Rollof. he was in turbo nearly the entire time which was just between eco 3 and 4 on my CC. I think it depended on the hills because my bike is 20 pounds heavier than his but he was approx. 20lbs more than me. I finished with 16% left on my Frey 840WH battery. My battery goes down rather fast near the bottom so I would say it should be 15% at the most left so 714Wh. used. My friend finished one 500WH battery and 20% of another. (Approx.600Wh used). In rough numbers this makes the standard Bosch 15% more effecien than the Bafang When on turbo. I believe they are more efficient at lower assist.
When I had Pushkar‘s archon X1 on my bike my range was better by approximately 30%. Hopefully I will have it back on again soon. Some electronics Grimmlin we are trying to find on my bike.
‘Standard Bafang G510 Benchmark
Bosch CX + 15%
Bafang Archon X1 + 30%
Anyone have different findings?

 

[pennybags]

So just to summarize
1. So you used 705Wh on the stock battery with stock bafang controller.
2. Your friend used 500+100 = 600 Wh on Bosch
3. Your Archon x1 is 30% more efficient. So anecdotally that means with X1 your consumption is 0.7 *705Wh = 493Wh ? is that how you are seeing it too ?

Yeah, for higher power scenarios, you would expect Ultra + X1 to be more efficient than Bosch. They are pretty much dead even in flats, but X1 pulls ahead if you are going offroad. Bosch will pretty much waste a bunch of energy on heat IIRC (smaller stators, so more heat). The bosch motor should have gotten hot - did you guys check ?

 

[Acme]

I did not check the Bosch motor for Heat but I will definitely do that next time.

 

[vincent]

what speed were you riding?
i cannot imagine using that much battery on my bafang when it was stock and definitely not with the archon now- even with that elevation gain

my batteries are 14ah and i get 35 miles stock and probably 45 miles archon
but i ride slow and steady , sure that makes the difference

my haibike yamaha was probably more efficient even than my WW with archon by a decent amount
BUT yamaha was never loaded, no racks etc
and WW is heavily loaded almost every ride - so hard for me to compare

i dont have any experience with the new bosch motors but guessing 15% difference in efficiency on euro motors would be about right, which is crazy when you think about how much more power we have

 

[Acme]

We were on fire roads mostly, lots of ups and downs. mostly under 20 But definitely using power. But again he was on turbo the whole time which I’m sure is not the most efficient place for the Bosch. I think the Bosch, Yamaha etc are most efficient in lower power modes.
The more people that share their experiences the better to form an understanding about each motors best attribute.

 

[Johnny]

I wanted to start a discussion about what people think the overall efficiency is of the standard Bosch or Shimano 36 V motors versus the standard Bafang 48v-52v and the Bafang with archon X1 controller
I have been on all three types of bikes and after a ride we had today I wanted to share my thoughts and see if people think this is correct or if they have different findings.
Today we rode approximately 15 miles with approximately 2500 feet of elevation. I rode my FREY cc with standard Bafang motor and controller my friend road a Reise Muller Bosch belt drive Rollof. he was in turbo nearly the entire time which was just between eco 3 and 4 on my CC. I think it depended on the hills because my bike is 20 pounds heavier than his but he was approx. 20lbs more than me. I finished with 16% left on my Frey 840WH battery. My battery goes down rather fast near the bottom so I would say it should be 15% at the most left so 714Wh. used. My friend finished one 500WH battery and 20% of another. (Approx.600Wh used). In rough numbers this makes the standard Bosch 15% more effecien than the Bafang When on turbo. I believe they are more efficient at lower assist.
When I had Pushkar‘s archon X1 on my bike my range was better by approximately 30%. Hopefully I will have it back on again soon. Some electronics Grimmlin we are trying to find on my bike.
‘Standard Bafang G510 Benchmark
Bosch CX + 15%
Bafang Archon X1 + 30%
Anyone have different findings?

Nice and informative post. Majority of these findings are expected. In theory, given that you have similar controllers, you should have better efficiency at higher outputs because of significantly less copper losses (both thicker wires and higher voltage help this significantly).

Since speed and total weight is almost the same this is a good comparison.
However a couple of things should be checked.

1. Are you and your friend putting the same amount of power yourselves? You said that your friend is 20 pounds heavier, if the fitness level is similar than you can expect your friend to put more power than you do.
2. The Battery indicator is not very accurate. You tried to adjust it for yourself, well for Bosch, if the battery is topped the first bar (the first %20) gives me more range then the subsequent bars. Hence your friend likely got a bit more than 100wh from the second battery.
Depending on 1and 2 that efficiency difference is probably less than %15 even for the stock inefficient controller.

 

[vincent]

I usually ride around 8-13mph on any kind of dirt roads

15-17 on pavement
Don’t know if my bike has ever seen 20mph even downhill on pavement lol

I always ran my Yamaha in the top level and still got 30miles all the time with half a battery left..
But again slow rides and it was a pw, maybe a little less power than they have now?

hard to compare on a lot of this stuff but I am super happy with the mileage on the archon
Starting in may or june should have some better numbers on how far I can go on a 14ah, on anything where I plan for more than 40 miles I have the second battery with me and always swap early just for battery longevity

 

[jharrell]

Watt hours per mile (Wh/mi) is probably the best unit to use to compare efficiency assuming all else equal (speed, wind, terrain, etc.):

Stock Bafang G510: 714 Wh / 15 mi = 47.6 Wh/mi
Bosch CX: 600 Wh / 15 mi = 40 Wh/mi

As a comparison on my Juiced RCS with Bafang 750w hub motor on flat paved ground I usually get about 15 Wh/mi if I am taking it easy 15-20mph, 20 Wh/mi if I don't care 20+mph and 25-30 Wh/mi if I am pushing it hard 28+mph or high wind. Obviously you where doing some big elevation changes was it on-road or off-road? avg speed? Edit: NVM I see fire roads and under 20mph.

Nice thing about my Juiced is the display records Wh/mi along with total Wh and mileage with a resettable trip.

 

[Dallant]

It’s a moot point to compare. Sounds like your buddy is either clearly way out of shape if he’s in Turbo most of the time just going up and down average fire roads. That or he’s not shifting enough or properly. Are you talking about 4th Gen Bosch CX? Has it had the Bosch software update?
I’m climbing numerous significantly steep paved street/trail with my Allant+7 and maybe hit Turbo a total of 5 minutes out of a two hour/27 mile ride. I’m mostly in Tour/EMTB mode going uphill and into the frequent 20+ mph headwinds. Eco or Off for much of the rest of my ride.
Best comparison would be for you to ride his bike over the same route.

 

[Acme]

The Bosch is less than 2 years old and not sure of the update. He is however not the only euro style EMTB we have ridden with and we almost always go faster than them going up hill. I will make a point of asking what level they are in from now on.
I want to thank everyone for their input. The more real world examples we have the better.
it would be good to know for each motor.
1) Where are they most efficient. Flat, slow technical climb, fast road climb?
2) How do they compare
Pics to give you an idea of Santa Barbara Geography

went up a steep fire road so fast I was using 1000w to catch him and when I asked him what assistance level he was in he told me he turned the bike off at the bottom because he wanted a better work out. I think he said he was putting out 350w of power on a test bike when he was racing. He hasn’t ridden with us again.

 

[Johnny]

The Bosch is less than 2 years old and not sure of the update. He is however not the only euro style EMTB we have ridden with and we almost always go faster than them going up hill. I will make a point of asking what level they are in from now on.
I want to thank everyone for their input. The more real world examples we have the better.
it would be good to know for each motor.
1) Where are they most efficient. Flat, slow technical climb, fast road climb?
2) How do they compare
Pics to give you an idea of Santa Barbara Geography
View attachment 83239
View attachment 83240went up a steep fire road so fast I was using 1000w to catch him and when I asked him what assistance level he was in he told me he turned the bike off at the bottom because he wanted a better work out. I think he said he was putting out 350w of power on a test bike when he was racing. He hasn’t ridden with us again.

I have gen 2 Bosch bikes and I did similar climbs in Santa Barbara. I am also relatively fit and regularly do steep climbs. I pretty much cap that motor when I push it at tour in those climbs.

There is no way that rider can keep up with you at 1000W if the bike is turned off. According to data, It is also expected that you will climb faster on g510.

1. Under continuous high loads Bosch is not very efficient. If you play with the assist level, put in the effort yourself, they are fine. In slow technical climbs they may have an edge. During fast road climbs , bosch will be slower and less efficient.
2. This is too general of a question to answer.

What was your speed on the 15 mile 2500 feet climb? How long did it take? What is your total weight(rider + bike)?

As I have mentioned before, you need to have an estimate on the rider input to make the final calculation. How fit are you? How much power do you usually put yourself. With higher powered bikes rider tends to decrease his/her effort so you probably got more assistance on your g510.

 

[Praxx62]

I wanted to start a discussion about what people think the overall efficiency is of the standard Bosch or Shimano 36 V motors versus the standard Bafang 48v-52v and the Bafang with archon X1 controller
I have been on all three types of bikes and after a ride we had today I wanted to share my thoughts and see if people think this is correct or if they have different findings.
Today we rode approximately 15 miles with approximately 2500 feet of elevation. I rode my FREY cc with standard Bafang motor and controller my friend road a Reise Muller Bosch belt drive Rollof. he was in turbo nearly the entire time which was just between eco 3 and 4 on my CC. I think it depended on the hills because my bike is 20 pounds heavier than his but he was approx. 20lbs more than me. I finished with 16% left on my Frey 840WH battery. My battery goes down rather fast near the bottom so I would say it should be 15% at the most left so 714Wh. used. My friend finished one 500WH battery and 20% of another. (Approx.600Wh used). In rough numbers this makes the standard Bosch 15% more effecien than the Bafang When on turbo. I believe they are more efficient at lower assist.
When I had Pushkar‘s archon X1 on my bike my range was better by approximately 30%. Hopefully I will have it back on again soon. Some electronics Grimmlin we are trying to find on my bike.
‘Standard Bafang G510 Benchmark
Bosch CX + 15%
Bafang Archon X1 + 30%
Anyone have different findings?

By getting the Archon X1 I an also getting better range on my Frey cc 30% easy and also my bike run smoother And I also own a Haibike XDURO Trekking 9.0 with Bosch performance line

 

[Merle Nelson]

Bump. Might be fun to read this with new Hydra information put in.

 

[Acme]

Some power observations.
We did a another ride today with a Shimano e7000 and a Bosch gen 4 CX hard tail. I rode the Shimano for a little because the guy was larger 240lbs and it wouldn’t make it up a steep section of fire road (this was Partially caused by his super moto tire not being able to get grip). I loaned him my CC (stock Bafang controller and Johnny Watts tires) and he peddled right up but I think he used 1/2 throttle also. I, 185lbs, rode his bike up in boost with a little problem keeping traction. Boost felt like assist eco4 on mine. My bike is also 15lbs heavier. The assist was much smoother and came on much quicker which was nice.
The Gen 4 Bosch was a 50lb Haibike 185lb guy with good nobbys. i was in Eco 3-5 the whole time and felt evenly matched on the dirt trails. On the steep switch backs I had to cheat a little with some throttle to keep balance and momentum when the wheel would slip but I kept up and we were evenly matched.
On the pavement going home Eco 5 was clearly more powerful for climbing hills and when I would use the 1500w throttle I would run away from him

 

[Ebiker33]

Some power observations.
We did a another ride today with a Shimano e7000 and a Bosch gen 4 CX hard tail. I rode the Shimano for a little because the guy was larger 240lbs and it wouldn’t make it up a steep section of fire road (this was Partially caused by his super moto tire not being able to get grip). I loaned him my CC (stock Bafang controller and Johnny Watts tires) and he peddled right up but I think he used 1/2 throttle also. I, 185lbs, rode his bike up in boost with a little problem keeping traction. Boost felt like assist eco4 on mine. My bike is also 15lbs heavier. The assist was much smoother and came on much quicker which was nice.
The Gen 4 Bosch was a 50lb Haibike 185lb guy with good nobbys. i was in Eco 3-5 the whole time and felt evenly matched on the dirt trails. On the steep switch backs I had to cheat a little with some throttle to keep balance and momentum when the wheel would slip but I kept up and we were evenly matched.
On the pavement going home Eco 5 was clearly more powerful for climbing hills and when I would use the 1500w throttle I would run away from him

So you changed out the stock tires for Johnny Watts tires, they seem like they preform better overall for everything.
How do you like them?

 

[Acme]

The CC came with Supermoto’ s. Great for the street but bad in the loose stuff. I had the front wheel washout on me several times. The Johnny watts are a nice compromise between a full trail tire and still low rolling resistanc. They are also heavy at about 1200g. But that means puncture resistanc. I like them a lot

 

[Ebiker33]

The CC came with Supermoto’ s. Great for the street but bad in the loose stuff. I had the front wheel washout on me several times. The Johnny watts are a nice compromise between a full trail tire and still low rolling resistanc. They are also heavy at about 1200g. But that means puncture resistanc. I like them a lot

What is the noise factor on concrete or asphalt?

 

[Acme]

The supermoto’s are definitely smooth and quiet, the Johnny Watts are noisier but not as bad as something like the Nobby Nics. They also don’t have the same off road traction either. It’s all a compromise.

 

[Ebiker33]

The supermoto’s are definitely smooth and quiet, the Johnny Watts are noisier but not as bad as something like the Nobby Nics. They also don’t have the same off road traction either. It’s all a compromise.

Seems like they are ideal for groomed gravel and standard non-paved bike paths, that would knock out the tire hum anyways.

 

[Acme]

There is still some hum on pavement with the Johnny Watts