Lots of people dislike many ebike brands because the speed is different in say PAS 1 between two bikes/riders. There are several factors in play but it’s mostly body weight. The Bolton upgrade can fix this. I program C14 in the controller to 2 so my PAS 1 has more power. I can now cruise easily around 15mph with my wife. Before I had it on 1 which gave me 13mph or if using PAS 2 I would hit 18-20 easily and get way out in front.
Matching speed with riding partner.
- Thread starter BKing
- Start date
No throttle involved. Rads don’t monitor rate of cadence just if there is a certain minimum amount read from the sensor at the crank area.
The Bolton has 5 PAS but it has an overall gain C14 you change from 1,2,3. With 3 being the highest. In higher PAS settings it’s not noticeable as much because you just hit max speed quickly where the program just gives enough wattage to maintain it. So you use PAS 1 to test different C14 settings.
The Bolton has 5 PAS but it has an overall gain C14 you change from 1,2,3. With 3 being the highest. In higher PAS settings it’s not noticeable as much because you just hit max speed quickly where the program just gives enough wattage to maintain it. So you use PAS 1 to test different C14 settings.
Last edited:
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
There's a LOT to this, but the bottom line is that a bike with a Bolton/KT Systems controller installed IS ADJUSTABLE when it comes to PAS levels.
As noted above @BKing likes his PAS 1 target speed to be in the teens. My own preference is something under 10 mph, maybe even closer to 6-7mph, so I can easily mix it up with traffic on foot for instance if necessary. This is done using a combination of C5 for bigger changes, then fine tuning using C14. Takes some dinking around making changes and testing them, but they can be dialed in to just about anyone's wishes/speed they have in mind.
On top of this, KT has this thing called "imitation torque control" (see the P3 parameter) that can really smooth things out. No more luching or power tapering depending on your speed. With imitation torque control turned on, speed is no longer a factor. Power will no longer taper at a certain speed (depending on PAS level set). Instead of being speed based, with imitation torque control, the controller uses varying amounts of power, the amount of power depending on PAS level. The amount of this power is set the same way you would set if it were speed based. You use C5 to get you in the ball park, and C14 for fine tuning.
"Imitation torque control" is chinglish for speed based PAS, generally only found in more deluxe controllers. Using this, using the PAS levels, you tell the bike how much assist you want. Could be no assist (PAS=0), or could be just a bit (PAS=1 when set up with 75-150 watts of "assist" or more, exact amount to be determined by YOU). Set like this, the bike can easily be ridden at speeds under 10 mph. As long as the PAS is set to 1 the assist level does not change, no matter how fast you are going. If you'd like more assist, you go to a higher PAS level.
As noted above @BKing likes his PAS 1 target speed to be in the teens. My own preference is something under 10 mph, maybe even closer to 6-7mph, so I can easily mix it up with traffic on foot for instance if necessary. This is done using a combination of C5 for bigger changes, then fine tuning using C14. Takes some dinking around making changes and testing them, but they can be dialed in to just about anyone's wishes/speed they have in mind.
On top of this, KT has this thing called "imitation torque control" (see the P3 parameter) that can really smooth things out. No more luching or power tapering depending on your speed. With imitation torque control turned on, speed is no longer a factor. Power will no longer taper at a certain speed (depending on PAS level set). Instead of being speed based, with imitation torque control, the controller uses varying amounts of power, the amount of power depending on PAS level. The amount of this power is set the same way you would set if it were speed based. You use C5 to get you in the ball park, and C14 for fine tuning.
"Imitation torque control" is chinglish for speed based PAS, generally only found in more deluxe controllers. Using this, using the PAS levels, you tell the bike how much assist you want. Could be no assist (PAS=0), or could be just a bit (PAS=1 when set up with 75-150 watts of "assist" or more, exact amount to be determined by YOU). Set like this, the bike can easily be ridden at speeds under 10 mph. As long as the PAS is set to 1 the assist level does not change, no matter how fast you are going. If you'd like more assist, you go to a higher PAS level.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
From the manual (cut and paste):
"P3 is power assist control mode setting, when P3 parameter setting is1, power assist control mode is gear 5 of "imitation torque control" mode, when P3 parameter setting is 0, power assist control mode is gear 5 of "speed control" mode. P3 parameter needs to be determined according to the distributed function of the controller, its setting range is 0 or 1,"
Rough translation, chinglish to english-
If P3=1 you'll be in "imitation torque control" mode, which is chinglish for power based PAS. If you set P3=O you have a speed based PAS, which is similar in function to most inexpensive geared hub controllers. Exception here being this one is adjustable (with either choice you make).
Imitation torque control, or speed sensing, is by far and away the most popular choice both here in the KT parameters, AND the Bafang mid drive parameters among most people I have spoken with. If you haven't tried it yet, I would highly recommend you do. Give it a fair chance though. A 100' drive down the driveway and back really doesn't give you much of a chance to see what it can do....
"No effect unless throttle is used." is not the case at all. I can see where you might think that, but I can also share that I have done 7 of these KT conversions, starting 5 years ago, and if they've taught me one thing, it's the fact this is WAY WAY more about how the controller responds when the pedals are turning.
"P3 is power assist control mode setting, when P3 parameter setting is1, power assist control mode is gear 5 of "imitation torque control" mode, when P3 parameter setting is 0, power assist control mode is gear 5 of "speed control" mode. P3 parameter needs to be determined according to the distributed function of the controller, its setting range is 0 or 1,"
Rough translation, chinglish to english-
If P3=1 you'll be in "imitation torque control" mode, which is chinglish for power based PAS. If you set P3=O you have a speed based PAS, which is similar in function to most inexpensive geared hub controllers. Exception here being this one is adjustable (with either choice you make).
Imitation torque control, or speed sensing, is by far and away the most popular choice both here in the KT parameters, AND the Bafang mid drive parameters among most people I have spoken with. If you haven't tried it yet, I would highly recommend you do. Give it a fair chance though. A 100' drive down the driveway and back really doesn't give you much of a chance to see what it can do....
"No effect unless throttle is used." is not the case at all. I can see where you might think that, but I can also share that I have done 7 of these KT conversions, starting 5 years ago, and if they've taught me one thing, it's the fact this is WAY WAY more about how the controller responds when the pedals are turning.
Last edited:
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
OH geez. If you don't want to believe me, and you have an open mind on the subject, just go try it.
Or better yet, do whatever you want.....
After much testing here is how P3 works. When on 0 the amount of throttle power is limited to whichever PAS you are on. It also imposes a speed limit on each PAS where it rolls off the power as you reach that predetermined speed in the firmware.
When on 1 everything works as expected with full throttle available anytime for safety reasons such as crossing roads.
When on 1 everything works as expected with full throttle available anytime for safety reasons such as crossing roads.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Suggest you stop supplying bad info.
After much testing here is how P3 works. When on 0 the amount of throttle power is limited to whichever PAS you are on. It also imposes a speed limit on each PAS where it rolls off the power as you reach that predetermined speed in the firmware.
When on 1 everything works as expected with full throttle available anytime for safety reasons such as crossing roads.
When on 1 everything works as expected with full throttle available anytime for safety reasons such as crossing roads.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
YES, you have it, or most of it anyway. With imitation torque control turned on, the power to the motor will not change depending on PAS level, regardless of the speed of the bike.
It's your call regarding the PAS setting affecting how much throttle is available in each PAS setting. You can turn that off so you have unlimited throttle in ANY PAS setting, or leave it as you describe. That has nothing to do with the C3/imitation torque control.
The manual is tough to follow, or maybe impossible, I know. Try C4=0 and P4=0 to allow full use of throttle at any time, no matter what PAS level you are in, or if you have C3 (imitation torque control) at 0 (off) or 1 (on)
It's your call regarding the PAS setting affecting how much throttle is available in each PAS setting. You can turn that off so you have unlimited throttle in ANY PAS setting, or leave it as you describe. That has nothing to do with the C3/imitation torque control.
The manual is tough to follow, or maybe impossible, I know. Try C4=0 and P4=0 to allow full use of throttle at any time, no matter what PAS level you are in, or if you have C3 (imitation torque control) at 0 (off) or 1 (on)
