Luna Cycle X1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

[pushkar]

Apparently non-Ludi is closer to stock but they wouldn't provide more details than that. When I asked why the torque sensing was so unrefined in PAS 1-2 they claimed " torque sensing gets rougher feeling the more powerful the bike" which IMO makes no sense.

I agree. That makes no sense to me either. However if you are Just pushing watts but not changing the rest of the controller, It will exacerbate the issues. (Like the ludicrous controller).
Regardless.

? I hold out hope that Innotrace will come out with an aftermarket controller with a level of refinement that will do the M600 justice.

It’s in the works. Targeting EOY for that. This will be a cumulative update to cover the new Ultra CAN version and the M600 (which is already CAN).

 

[TomD]

Thanks pushkar, I understand what you are saying regarding Ludi, that's one reason I didn't go for Ludi since doubling the power would cause torque sensing side effects (without re-tuning) and magnify any imperfections. I think that's what Luna was saying in regards to more power making it harder to tune, but that's for the ludi controller, shouldn't be as much of an issue for the stock M600 assuming Bafang got it smooth enough.

I got a follow up from Luna in regards whether my motor could have gotten flashed with the Ludi firmware. They think that might explain why my motor feels so unresponsive at lower PAS. They offered to diagnose if I wanted to send the motor in as wall as a complementary upgrade to Ludi for the hassle. I think I may take them up on the offer as throttle is a big yawn on the stock M600 without Ludi. Do you have a similar impression? It's kind of funny to see people saying they would go for the M600 over a refined eruo spec simply because of throttle.

Edited to add: I did find a good use for throttle on my initial ride. I found throttle output was limited to the PAS level, so I just hit throttle in PAS 2 so I could pedal smoothly up my steep hill. It provided enough power to mimmick cadence sensing, but not too much power that I was clown pedaling. I do the same thing on my Ultra, but I have to switch to a higher gear to avoid clown pedaling as throttle on the Ultra gives full power independent of PAS setting.

 

[byunbee]

Thanks pushkar, I understand what you are saying regarding Ludi, that's one reason I didn't go for Ludi since doubling the power would cause torque sensing side effects (without re-tuning) and magnify any imperfections. I think that's what Luna was saying in regards to more power making it harder to tune, but that's for the ludi controller, shouldn't be as much of an issue for the stock M600 assuming Bafang got it smooth enough.

I got a follow up from Luna in regards whether my motor could have gotten flashed with the Ludi firmware. They think that might explain why my motor feels so unresponsive at lower PAS. They offered to diagnose if I wanted to send the motor in as wall as a complementary upgrade to Ludi for the hassle. I think I may take them up on the offer as throttle is a big yawn on the stock M600 without Ludi. Do you have a similar impression? It's kind of funny to see people saying they would go for the M600 over a refined eruo spec simply because of throttle.

Edited to add: I did find a good use for throttle on my initial ride. I found throttle output was limited to the PAS level, so I just hit throttle in PAS 2 so I could pedal smoothly up my steep hill. It provided enough power to mimmick cadence sensing, but not too much power that I was clown pedaling. I do the same thing on my Ultra, but I have to switch to a higher gear to avoid clown pedaling as throttle on the Ultra gives full power independent of PAS setting.

Does Luna pay for return shipping since this is a problem with a brand new bike?

 

[scout592]

Pushkar, I am looking at your new City Commuter with m600, shimano 5 speed igh and maybe their electronic shifting and want smooth refined torque and will be riding on a few steep paved hills. Should I be waiting till EOY and you get new configuration as mentioned in these recent posts by you and tomdav? Will it cost to upgrade to that controller if I order the current configuration and find its not smooth like tomdav reported on some pas on his luna?

"I hold out hope that Innotrace will come out with an aftermarket controller with a level of refinement that will do the M600 justice.
It’s in the works. Targeting EOY for that. This will be a cumulative update to cover the new Ultra CAN version and the M600 (which is already CAN)."

Thanks for any help.

 

[TomD]

byunbee, it wasn't clear, but I'm sure they will make it right if it turns out to be an error on their part. Once I get my tire patched I hope to do more comparison testing to my Rebel Lite with Yamaha PW motor just to make sure I'm not imagining things.

 

[pushkar]

Pushkar, I am looking at your new City Commuter with m600, shimano 5 speed igh and maybe their electronic shifting and want smooth refined torque and will be riding on a few steep paved hills. Should I be waiting till EOY and you get new configuration as mentioned in these recent posts by you and tomdav? Will it cost to upgrade to that controller if I order the current configuration and find its not smooth like tomdav reported on some pas on his luna?

"I hold out hope that Innotrace will come out with an aftermarket controller with a level of refinement that will do the M600 justice.
It’s in the works. Targeting EOY for that. This will be a cumulative update to cover the new Ultra CAN version and the M600 (which is already CAN)."

Thanks for any help.

On a scale of performance (1-100) the Ultra was at 40, but the stock M600 at 500W is closer to 60/70 already. I want to set realistic expectations that specifically for the M600, the performance will improve but I don't think it will be a quantum leap like the Ultra. It will be a fairly solid upgrade with the flexibility to program it.

Overall, the controller needs development and testing and we are targeting EOY . Assuming no changes / issues dev or testing. Further, producing it in volume etc, with new update instructions, will take it to early-mid 2021.

There will be a cost for that upgrade but WW customers will have a much better pricing for it.

 

[walkingman57]

Hi Tom, I super appreciate that you share your experience in detail. I wonder if you might compare and contrast your impressions between the X1 and Frey CC. Thanks!

 

[TomD]

I would say they are completely different bikes that complement each other well. The X1 is 20 lb lighter and rides like a mountain bike. The CC is super cushy and stable at speed. I often exceed 35 miles an hour downhill and it doesn't feel scary at all. It also has double the power of the X1 but tends to be a battery hungry beast. I often bring my charger in my pannier so that I can just gun it wherever I go if I'm in a hurry and not have range anxiety. The X1 tops out at 25 mph but realistically you're typically going slower than that. On the CC you can easily hit 30+ without breaking a sweat if you crank up the PAS.

The CC is great if you want an all around city and multi-purpose utilitarian bike. It is not the bike to get for any serious off-road. It would be fine on fire roads and gravel paths but sharp turns can be a challenge and the tires will spin in loose terrain.

For any serious off-road I would get the X1. But it's not going to be the best bike for city use. No options to add a rack due to the carbon frame. While you can use it for running errands around town the plus size knobby tires aren't ideal on pavement and you definitely notice the resistance versus the street tires on the CC.

I haven't really had much time to ride the X1 as my front tire got a flat on the first ride and I just got around to replacing the tube and adding tannus armor. One very frustrating thing with the X1 is the rims are not tubeless ready and the velofix bike mechanic told me tubeless won't work. So if you want to go tubeless on the X1 I believe you need to replace the rims. I really wish Luna hadn't cheaped out on these rims to keep costs down. I would have preferred to pay another 500 bucks for a carbon tubeless wheel set. My confidence in these tires is pretty low given that I got a flat on the first city ride. Meanwhile my CC has been a trooper approaching 500 miles over some pretty rough stuff with nary a flat.

 

[walkingman57]

Thanks Tom for the insights. I really like the aggressive look of the X1, but will probably lean towards the SUV character of the CC or HT for fast commuting & in-town tasks. Great comparison.

 

[TomD]

Finally got around to comparing the torque sensing on my Luna X1 vs. my BH Easy Motion Rebel Lite. Sorry, shot these videos in a couple single takes and too lazy to combine them into one and edit out the rambling. I hope to do some off road riding tomorrow and maybe I'll warm up to the X1 a little more but my tests today pretty much validated my first impression that the torque sensing in PAS 1 and 2 is too unresponsive and lurchy to be usable for normal riding. To be fair, it might be useful in very low gear on technicial terrain, but that's a stretch to ratoinalize given legit eMTBs I've ridden like the turbo levo are plenty smooth at low PAS.

 

[TomD]

After taking the X1 out on a couple single and double track rides I'm much happier with it now. At first I thought I'd ride in lower PAS but the reality is i got this bike to cut out long abandoned road slogs en route to hikes so conserving my legs for the hike is a priority. In this regard the X1 is the perfect bike for my needs. PAS 3 felt just about right, but was nice to bump it up to 4 or 5 at times. The motor got pretty hot so I'm not sure I'd want the ludi controller to extract any more power. The bike performed flawlessly and laughed at the occasional minefield of rocks, mud, and brush. I was glad I installed Tannus Armour in the tires. The bike did everything I asked of it and never felt the power was too much so if you are looking for a capable off road bike with more power than 250W motors I'd say the X1 is a great choice.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

X1 looks nice. Too bad the battery capacity is so small. Luna's range of 30-40 miles seems unrealistic.

 

[TomD]

I actually am pretty happy with the battery capacity. It's a balancing act as larger battery would make the bike heavier. I carried the bike over quite a few downed logs and appreciated being able to lift it without straining too much. I haven't checked my battery after yesterday's ride but the motor seems pretty efficient. I'm pretty sure I could get 30+ miles out of it in PAS 3.

 

[rtp]

@TomD I know, ancient thread - just wondering - do you still have the X1, and did you ever upgrade the firmware to the Bafang 14.6 for comparison? (Those 'Luna tuned' Ludi/non-Ludi v1 firmware versions were generally 'not good' - think it was 14.5 fw version or something)..

 

[TomD]

I still have the X1. I did order the BESST tool from Luna last year to upgrade the firmware (which everyone says is much smoother at lower PAS) but I never got around to flashing it. I picked up the shorter Luna cranks at the same time (pedal strike was a nighmare with the stock M600 cranks) and it feels like much more of a workout now that I need extra PAS and only ride in PAS 3+ where the older firmware issues don't manifest. I figure if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I think all of the bikes from Luna come with the latest firmware and shorter cranks so most of my issues are no longer relevant.

I note you picked up the X2, contrats! As you have the matte carbon frame be careful with spray on bike cleaning products like muc off nano tech. The bike cleaner instructions usually warn to test an area of frame to see if it will stain. I did test, and it seemed fine, but after washing the bike I noticed splotches on the frame. Not horrible, but opt for sponge and a milder cleaning product if you want more of a showroom finish after washing your bike. Pretty sure the matte carbon finish is the primer they put on these carbon frames before painting. I think they look great in matte carbon, but they will stain. If you have a painted frame like the galaxy finish it should be fine to use a harsher cleaning product.

 

[rtp]

I still have the X1. I did order the BESST tool from Luna last year to upgrade the firmware (which everyone says is much smoother at lower PAS) but I never got around to flashing it. I picked up the shorter Luna cranks at the same time (pedal strike was a nighmare with the stock M600 cranks) and it feels like much more of a workout now that I need extra PAS and only ride in PAS 3+ where the older firmware issues don't manifest. I figure if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I think all of the bikes from Luna come with the latest firmware and shorter cranks so most of my issues are no longer relevant.

I note you picked up the X2, contrats! As you have the matte carbon frame be careful with spray on bike cleaning products like muc off nano tech. The bike cleaner instructions usually warn to test an area of frame to see if it will stain. I did test, and it seemed fine, but after washing the bike I noticed splotches on the frame. Not horrible, but opt for sponge and a milder cleaning product if you want more of a showroom finish after washing your bike. Pretty sure the matte carbon finish is the primer they put on these carbon frames before painting. I think they look great in matte carbon, but they will stain. If you have a painted frame like the galaxy finish it should be fine to use a harsher cleaning product.

GREAT info on the frame - will absolutely test. The 'paint' looks a bit 'different' to me, so have a question into Luna if there's a clearcoat over their logo or exactly what's what there.
I think they're coming with the shorter (160mm?) cranks now. Haven't measured but I think I'd asked or seen someone on one of the last X1 orders mentioning it, will add it to the list to check.
If you've got the BESST tool, I think all three firmware is available from Luna - it might be worth still trying the 14.6, but yeah - can also understand 'if it's not broke ... '

Would love to have someone with an X1 side by side to swap bikes with, just to really compare the assist feel etc. vs the Ludi V2 'out of the box.'

Thanks for responding AND for the very timely note on the paint!