Looking for Guidance- Commuter/Light Cruiser eBike

[iik]

How about a Cowboy 2019 model?
It retails for 1990 euros (without any accessories, though) and has generally very positive reviews.
Here is a quick VanMoof Electrified S2 vs Cowboy comparison, as one example.
Very much a good city e-bike.

It does not look like EBR has done a review on this model yet.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Speed is somewhat important- which is why I’m focused on class 2 and class 3

Class 2 bikes are maxed out at 32 km/h by definition, so you'd go as fast or faster on e class 1 bike, all other things being equal. Now a class 3 bike, that's a whole different story!

My own bias is to recommend brand name bikes with brand name motors. Whenever I try a combination that isn't that, I'm disappointed. I've ridden brand name bikes with no-name motors, and no-name bikes with brand name motors, and it's never a satisfying and confidence building combination for me. So from your list I'd recommend re-evaluating some of the brane name bikes you crossed over (Trek, Cannondale, etc.). Or expand your search a bit into some more value-oriented brand names like Giant.

Too many e-bike companies have either gone out of business, or lost interest in old models as new models came out. Buy it once, buy it right, if you ask me. If you get something with an off the shelf Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, or Brose motor you'll probably have parts and service documentation availability well into the future. Companies like Pedego, Rad Power, etc., are unproven over the long haul when it comes to long-term parts availability and service support. They could be the next big brand names in the making, or the next BionX. Time will tell, and buyer beware, IMO.

 

[MAPC]

I hear you on some of the component risk. Not sure I agree about Pedego. As I understand it they are the largest seller of eBikes on the US. Further, their dealer support network is incredible....as are the stories of how they have stood behind their products.

My issue with the ‘brand name’ companies as that they don't seem to offer any Class 2 bikes and I really like the throttle on bikes I’ve tested.

Re speed- in the US there isn’t much of a difference in speed on a class 2 vs class 3.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I hear you on some of the component risk. Not sure I agree about Pedego. As I understand it they are the largest seller of eBikes on the US. Further, their dealer support network is incredible....as are the stories of how they have stood behind their products.

My issue with the ‘brand name’ companies as that they don't seem to offer any Class 2 bikes and I really like the throttle on bikes I’ve tested.

Re speed- in the US there isn’t much of a difference in speed on a class 2 vs class 3.

The Pedego bikes I've interacted with had poor fit and finish, and it wasn't confidence inspiring for me. Maybe I've seen the wrong ones, but they've often been only 7-speed gearing, mechanical disc brakes, etc. I know they have higher end bikes as well, but that doesn't seem to be the kind of Pedego bike that's selling well into my local market. If they're standing well behind what they sell, then awesome. I know Pedego is offering their bikes to local bike shops now, but unless you're a Pedego dealer then a bike shop cannot fully service them (whereas our shop can service bikes with Shimano, Bosch, Yamaha, Brose, etc., even if it's from a brand we don't sell). To be fair, I am also critical of Specialized and Giant for going a little too custom for their own good as well, which limits what non-dealers can do to service the bikes.

Hopefully Pedego continues to support old models for a long time even after replacing those older models with newer models, and time will tell about that.

Yes, class 2 bikes is something that the big-4 don't seem to be at all interested in. And that kind of makes sense to me, given how they're marketing them, and the fact that there are growing numbers of places where class 1 bikes can be used where class 2 bikes cannot. But yes, that's a downer for people who want to be able to use a bicycle as if it were more like a moped.

What do you mean there isn't much of a difference in speed between class 2 (32 km/h) and class 3 (45 km/h)? Class 2 is class 1 with a throttle added. Class 3 is a speed bike with a top assisted speed that's 40% faster. I'd say that's a huge difference. I'm sure there are some class 3 bikes that are underpowered or too heavy that can't take big advantage of the higher limit. But rest assured, if you have a class 3 bike that's powerful and lightweight that it will be able to go quite a bit faster than any class 2 bike.

 

[AHicks]

Lets keep in mind that there are class 2 bikes with a class 2 rating only due to restrictive controllers holding available amperage to the motor in check.....

I don't see anything all that unique about a class 3 bike as compared to a class 2 from a mechanical or electronic perspective for the most part. You often see the same motors used in both applications....

This "class" distinction is just a game manf's play on the rules (which are still evolving in my opinion). The same bike can be built to suit all 3 classes with just very minor modifications pretty much.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Lets keep in mind that there are class 2 bikes with a class 2 rating only due to restrictive controllers holding available amperage to the motor in check.....

I don't see anything all that unique about a class 3 bike as compared to a class 2 from a mechanical or electronic perspective for the most part. You often see the same motors used in both applications....

This "class" distinction is just a game manf's play on the rules (which are still evolving in my opinion). The same bike can be built to suit all 3 classes with just very minor modifications pretty much.

Yes there are some bikes where the class 2 and class 3 versions are similar or nearly identical. But my point was that class 3 bikes can offer a very different user experience than a class 2 bike. The statement I was responding to was that there wasn't much of a speed difference between class 2 and class 3. But there can be a huge speed difference, and as e-bikes get more powerful there frequently is.

 

[tomjasz]

My own bias is to recommend brand name bikes with brand name motors.

So... MAC, BMC, Aikema, for example, aren't brand names? You just don't have the experience and they aren't in the mainstream. But we know them well. There are even more. 9-Continent? eZee? Heinzmann? What you are calling a no name may well be from a maker that has been around for a couple of decades or building electric motors easily adapted to bicycle wheels.

Back to my comments in other threads. You are obviously in the groove with how you support and sell but you do NOT know much about much of the eBike side of the business, components makers and shakers...

fffffffffffff.......

 

[tomjasz]

Pedego replaced my 2014 City Commuter,(5,000 miles) with a 2019 model because of a cracked frame. The new model's pedal assist is different in that it cuts out power when you hit certain speeds in each level. The 2014 model had even power and did not cut out. This new PAS is terrible and makes for a terrible riding experience. The dealer told me this is how the bikes always performed. I let him drive my other 2014 Interceptor , at which time he admitted that the 2014 had continuous power. He told me the controller perimeters were different and that the new controller was a better system. Can someone verify that newer Pedegos have a differ controller than the 2014 model. Or did they give me a lemon.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! You'll get good insight here!

HOWEVER, Going completely off-topic in the middle of another thread may not get much good discussion. Go to the Pedego discussions and you'll catch far more Pedego riders and get more useful responses!

EDIT I see you did try in the Pedego section, try again in general, sometimes it takes a day or two for users to catch up. Posting pictures always creates interest. Try your title and post in "General". Some forums would consider reposting in numerous thread off-topic rather rude and definitely discourteous. Folks here are less fussy, it helps to be helpful and share some about you, your bike, how you ride, where you ride. Kinda like building friendships. You can stay as anonymous as you like.

 

[tomjasz]

This "class" distinction is just a game manf's play on the rules (which are still evolving in my opinion). The same bike can be built to suit all 3 classes with just very minor modifications pretty much.

SO much so that I can't give them any credence. California may be the biggest economy in the US adopting eBikes on a larger scale but the rest of us will fight to keep from Californicating our state's guidelines.

 

[Mass Deduction]

So... MAC, BMC, Aikema, for example, aren't brand names? You just don't have the experience and they aren't in the mainstream. But we know them well. There are even more. 9-Continent? eZee? Heinzmann? What you are calling a no name may well be from a maker that has been around for a couple of decades or building electric motors easily adapted to bicycle wheels.

Back to my comments in other threads. You are obviously in the groove with how you support and sell but you do NOT know much about much of the eBike side of the business, components makers and shakers...

fffffffffffff.......

I know BMC, and I know of eZee, but not the others you mentioned. And I'm open about my bias. And I am very open to being educated, that's a big part of why I joined this forum. Not long ago I wasn't aware of Brose, but now I'm familiar with them and consider them a brand name.

 

[tomjasz]

I know BMC, and I know of eZee, but not the others you mentioned. And I'm open about my bias. And I am very open to being educated, that's a big part of why I joined this forum. Not long ago I wasn't aware of Brose, but now I'm familiar with them and consider them a brand name.

Kinda late to the Brose game...

Check out eBikes.ca and their motor simulator. A list of reliable well known hub motors. Not a Bafang Hub fan except from Grin.

 

[Mass Deduction]

So... MAC, BMC, Aikema, for example, aren't brand names? You just don't have the experience and they aren't in the mainstream. But we know them well. There are even more. 9-Continent? eZee? Heinzmann? What you are calling a no name may well be from a maker that has been around for a couple of decades or building electric motors easily adapted to bicycle wheels.

Back to my comments in other threads. You are obviously in the groove with how you support and sell but you do NOT know much about much of the eBike side of the business, components makers and shakers...

fffffffffffff.......

This message bothered me enough that I'm replying again. Did I pee in your corn flakes and not realize it?

Quick question, do any of the companies you mention have a guaranteed minimum number of years that they'll make spare parts available for their products after taking the product off the market? If so, what number of years is that?

 

[AHicks]

This message bothered me enough that I'm replying again. Did I pee in your corn flakes and not realize it?

Quick question, do any of the companies you mention have a guaranteed minimum number of years that they'll make spare parts available for their products after taking the product off the market? If so, what number of years is that?

You aren't peeing in his corn flakes. Thomas is doing his best to expose you to information many of us are already familiar with.

As far as guaranteed parts or product support, that's a fantasy sir. I think if you look into that further you'll quickly realize that list is going to be a pretty short one. As big as the "Big 3" car manf's are, they don't provide anything like that either. Nobody does.....

For best possible assurance, I like to check the number of sources for a particular part. The MAC drives for instance, are supported by both Grin, and Em3ev. If one supplier did happen to fold, the other would still be around.

 

[tomjasz]

This message bothered me enough that I'm replying again. Did I pee in your corn flakes and not realize it?

Quick question, do any of the companies you mention have a guaranteed minimum number of years that they'll make spare parts available for their products after taking the product off the market? If so, what number of years is that?

Someone quipped, "If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster."

Seriously? Maybe It's because I'm 7 decades into this adventure of life and I've become cynical, and maybe it's just an age thing. But all things are subject to change. BionX made all sorts of promises, where are they? I mean really....

If I based my decisions on someone's promises, guarantees even, I'd have had a disappointing life. But that's me and my corn flakes. Honestly, it's really hard to not call you fffffffffff.....ffffffffaaan.....nnnnn....bbbbboy.

Not to be snide or mean, but maybe to get you to laugh at yourself, at me, and with me. FFS. Every one of the motors I mentioned has been around for at least a decade, several decades, and some even longer. Do you have a stock portfolio with a large investment in Shimano? Really? I started out riding Campagnola equipped bikes. No self-respecting road rider would even consider Shimano for a water bottle holder. And yet in 1973-1976, they started to bury Campy and a few others. I respect them, their products and their aplomb. But I should wait for them to make a hub and until then no one fills the void?

My $3800 Swiss watch has a lifetime guarantee but it cost me $250 every time I sent it in for service. Over 30 years I paid for a second watch in services.

Look, you want me to give the nod to a company that has brought nothing to my plate or business. I'm firmly in the DIY market and a solid supporter of companies that allow end-users to access parts, manuals, and do their own repairs. I'm only going to buy a Bosch, Shimano, or Yamaha mid-drive to have had the experience. Maybe I'll love it. After all I no longer wrench on cages and am in our 10th model Toyota in 40 years. I've never as much as changed the oil and used to do it all with my VWs. But eBikes are my last wrenching hobby. Shimano does nothing for me and my hobby. Sturmey-Archer was making hubs DECADES before Shimano. Now if S-A made hub motors and gave me a guarantee of parts for ten years....

OK, I'm getting overly silly here. There's really not much more to say. I have hub drives. I like my hub drives. My drives have been available for many years and there is a good parts stream. Sadly very few have used drives like the MAC and the one that I know of that has that direct to customer sales model I so despise. I support Bafang products, I like Bafang products. I'm frustrated that the parts stream for BBSxx series is a pain I the arse but no one else fills the void left by their leaving the DIY market. So we slug it out.

 

[tomjasz]

You aren't peeing in his corn flakes. Thomas is doing his best to expose you to information many of us are already familiar with.

As far as guaranteed parts or product support, that's a fantasy sir. I think if you look into that further you'll quickly realize that list is going to be a pretty short one. As big as the "Big 3" car manf's are, they don't provide anything like that either. Nobody does.....

For best possible assurance, I like to check the number of sources for a particular part. The MAC drives for instance, are supported by both Grin, and Em3ev. If one supplier did happen to fold, the other would still be around.

This is one of those circuitous conversations that really has no conclusion. And frankly it isn't worth much more energy. I hope some bike builder sorts a true "peoples bike". I think a gear drive hub motor like the G310 series from Bafang would make for a great sustainable eBike. Heck, it could even have Shimano components. Although I'd rather see a Nuvinci or budget Rohloff. I must admit that the Nexus drives have been stellar products. I just helped with a front-drive DIY build that needed a new rim and the 14-year-old Nexus runs as new!

End thread for me. It's more fun learning and helping.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Someone quipped, "If you want a guarantee, buy a toaster."

Seriously? Maybe It's because I'm 7 decades into this adventure of life and I've become cynical, and maybe it's just an age thing. But all things are subject to change. BionX made all sorts of promises, where are they? I mean really....

If I based my decisions on someone's promises, guarantees even, I'd have had a disappointing life. But that's me and my corn flakes. Honestly, it's really hard to not call you fffffffffff.....ffffffffaaan.....nnnnn....bbbbboy.

Not to be snide or mean, but maybe to get you to laugh at yourself, at me, and with me. FFS. Every one of the motors I mentioned has been around for at least a decade, several decades, and some even longer. Do you have a stock portfolio with a large investment in Shimano? Really? I started out riding Campagnola equipped bikes. No self-respecting road rider would even consider Shimano for a water bottle holder. And yet in 1973-1976, they started to bury Campy and a few others. I respect them, their products and their aplomb. But I should wait for them to make a hub and until then no one fills the void?

My $3800 Swiss watch has a lifetime guarantee but it cost me $250 every time I sent it in for service. Over 30 years I paid for a second watch in services.

Look, you want me to give the nod to a company that has brought nothing to my plate or business. I'm firmly in the DIY market and a solid supporter of companies that allow end-users to access parts, manuals, and do their own repairs. I'm only going to buy a Bosch, Shimano, or Yamaha mid-drive to have had the experience. Maybe I'll love it. After all I no longer wrench on cages and am in our 10th model Toyota in 40 years. I've never as much as changed the oil and used to do it all with my VWs. But eBikes are my last wrenching hobby. Shimano does nothing for me and my hobby. Sturmey-Archer was making hubs DECADES before Shimano. Now if S-A made hub motors and gave me a guarantee of parts for ten years....

OK, I'm getting overly silly here. There's really not much more to say. I have hub drives. I like my hub drives. My drives have been available for many years and there is a good parts stream. Sadly very few have used drives like the MAC and the one that I know of that has that direct to customer sales model I so despise. I support Bafang products, I like Bafang products. I'm frustrated that the parts stream for BBSxx series is a pain I the arse but no one else fills the void left by their leaving the DIY market. So we slug it out.

Fair enough on every point but the fanboy point. Shimano has done things that has harmed my business (don't even get me started about Chain Reaction). I've been riding e-bikes with Brose and Bosch motors, and SRAM gearing, not a single Shimano product to be seen on them. I listed other brands like SRAM that I'd also be interested in them exploring price-point hub motor options. I was repeatedly clear that Shimano kept coming up because this was consistent with their business model, and that they were uniquely positioned to execute on it, no other reason.

So suggesting I'm a Shimano fanboy flies in the face of facts, and since I'm in my own head I also have the benefit of knowing that I'm not one, but whatever makes you "laugh at yourself, at me, and with me" I guess.

 

[Mass Deduction]

You aren't peeing in his corn flakes. Thomas is doing his best to expose you to information many of us are already familiar with.

As far as guaranteed parts or product support, that's a fantasy sir. I think if you look into that further you'll quickly realize that list is going to be a pretty short one. As big as the "Big 3" car manf's are, they don't provide anything like that either. Nobody does.....

For best possible assurance, I like to check the number of sources for a particular part. The MAC drives for instance, are supported by both Grin, and Em3ev. If one supplier did happen to fold, the other would still be around.

What do you mean that no one does that? I already mentioned that several of the big bicycle brands sold in local bike shops do offer guarantees of minimum number of years for parts availability. Heck, some people criticize SRAM because their minimum parts guarantee is "only" two years after they discontinue a product.

These aren't part of their public-facing warranties, these are generally parts of the dealer and distribution agreements.

I'm happy to be exposed to new information, that's why I spend my time on this forum in fact. I think it's not helpful when it devolves into one person trying to question and share, and another person calling him a fanboy (when the supposed fanboy doesn't even personally use the product in question). I completely respect Thomas' contribution, but he's incorrect to call me a fanboy. Apparently I'm supposed to laugh about it "FFS"? Laughing about being told something about me is true, that isn't true, just isn't how I operate I guess.

 

[Mass Deduction]

This is one of those circuitous conversations that really has no conclusion.
[…]

I was engaging you because I respect your experience and your opinion. But by the end I mostly wanted you to give me the benefit of the doubt that I was actually being honest. That could have been the conclusion.