Long range options? Buy or build.

Hello! Im new to e bikes and have a pretty specific and seemingly uncommon need from an e bike.

The short- im looking for a bike that will be able to travel 40 miles round trip reliably on suburban roads, a second battery is OK, charging along the way is not possible. If its built, it will be built on a 2017 raleigh tokul 2 hard tale mountain bike.

More detail- im looking for a bike that i can make my commute to work on occasionally. The suburbs of metro Detroit are pretty spread out, a 40 mile round trip has actually been my shortest ever commute.

This isn't a task i plan on taking on every. Its something i plan on doing only in fair weather on days i have some extra free time. Maybe twice a week or so.

In 24 years old, 6'0", and 180 pounds. That may sound like im reasonably fit, but im not. My life is as sedentary as you can get while still leaving the house. The most exercise i get is walking up the stairs in my house when i get home from work. That being said, i dont have any disabilities or medical issues that would hold me back from riding a bike.

Budget varies. Ive seen $1k bikes that seemed overpriced and then ive seen $3k bikes that looked like a great deal. It all depends on what im getting for the money. Ill pay a little more for a lot more quality but i wont pay a lot more for a little more quality.

Building is an option if there is a decent kit that would fit the 2017 raleigh tokul 2 i have. I rather build to save money and its a decent bike thats really only seen 1 summer of reasonably hard riding when i first got it. It has hydraulic breaks, which i know can be an issue with some kits.

Im reasonably decent with electronics. Swapping out connectors and installing switches shouldn't be an issue, but building battery packs and some of the other crazy stuff you guys do would be pretty far beyond what i would feel comfortable doing.

My average speed would be... Whatever the bike can go. The average road around here is 45mph and bike lanes are nearly non-existent (though relatively empty sidewalks are prevalent). and state law follows standard class 2 and 3 restrictions, 28 mpg pedal assist 20mph throttle 750kw motor max. E bikes are allowed anywhere normal bikes are except hardpack natural dirt trails. I could keep it at 20 for battery conservation sake.

Ive been looking at the rad bikes and luna bikes lately. Luna catches my eye because not only do they offer high capacity 52v 21Aah batteries (USA made with Samsung cells), a spare is "only" about $800 vs other companies where comparable batteries are well over a grand. The reason i also like rad is due to their prevalence and reputation. Tons of people have them so theres tons of support and they seem to be reasonably reliable.

I have no idea where to start with kits. Its hard to know what would fit my particular bike for sure.

All suggestions are welcome, thank you!
 
I'll let you look over the market for fast flatland commuter bikes. People report the Juiced CCX is fast and inexpensive, but it is an internet bike and if you have a problem sometimes people report they are not much help. I believe leaking suspension fork was something they weren't prepared to replace.
Actually that sort of trip is suited for those $200 1000 W direct drive hub motor kits on Amazon & ebay. The kits are not speed limited. And a huge battery. The ranges reported on batteries apparently include no starts or stop and level ground. Multiply by .33 for cold weather, other reductions for stopping and starting as is required in actual traffic.
I've gotten a good 17 AH battery from Luna. Grin in CAN has a reputation for both batteries & conversion kits but you have to pay customs fees on the shipment plus any returns etc. TJ recommends em3ev of Hong Kong but you have to send your credit card number to reside on a server not protected by the FBI. I would only do that with a one time use credit card.
The difficulty of installing a kit is not the electric part, if you can crimp dorman terminals on a wire reliably (use klein or ideal crimp tool, pull test after crimp). (no ****ese terminals, they melt out at 26 A. Dorman, Panduit, 3m, Ideal, T&B terminals) You may need to make a 14 ga extender from battery terminal to controller input connectors. (red, black). The other terminals just plug together, only one way to do it. Then you dress the wires out of the way with tie-wraps.
You may have to grind out the slot of the fork or flange to make the axle fit in. I used a 4 1/2" body grinder but a 3" disk on a mandrel in a drill motor would work. I had to do that on one bike but not the other.
I recommend a front motor install, it doesn't mess up your sprocket cluster or shifters. Use safety glasses using power tools. The cluster on the rear DD was cheap and the wrong sprocket ratios for my hilly commute. Nobody ever had a 7 speed 11:32 freewheel in stock, although they are in the catalog as available. 8 speed ones wouldn't fit in the frame.
You have to hang the controller & battery someplace. I hung the controller under the seat to keep it out of the rain, using spam can lids for brackets. 1 1/2" # 10 screws and elastic stop nuts. You have to hang the battery somewhere. I made a bracket out of 3/4" x 1/8" aluminum angle, caging the battery in so theives don't have an easy time undoing the velcro hangers. More #10 screws. I hung the battery off the front for weight on the drive wheel, but my bike has bosses in the frame for a front basket. So the battery doesn't swing with the fork.
Torque arms, the ones you buy are so thick you can't put a 2nd nut on to lock the axle in place. I made torque arms out of 4" of bed frame rail, a hard thin stiff metal. Drill 2 5/16" holes, connect the dots with a rotary file then a nicholson triangle file to square the corners. The other end is captured to the fork with a bracket folded out of sheet metal & 1" x #10 screws. Make sure your converted bike has a steel fork.
The 2nd nut, you may have to remove & replace the sensor connector to get it on. I bent the tangs on the pins in with a pick. Draw out the colors beforehand. 2nd nut really solves the problem of the axle walking in the slot. Torque to about 40 ft lb the axle steel is soft. I couldn't find that weird thread nut to buy and had to make the nuts with a tap from victornet.com
If you buy PAS, removing & replacing the crank arm to install the magnet disk requires a special bike puller. I have 6 pullers and none of them the ends would fit between crank arm and bearing.
Note cheap displays leak in the rain. My 2nd kit only has battery state LED's on the throttle, no display. However that kit doesn't have PAS which might be a nuisance over a 20 mile ride.
Hanging the display throttle, pas switch on the handlebar can be very simple. However I put my display on 2 struts up in the air, which I could loosen and swing down if I needed to turn the bike upside down to change the tube in the tire.
My DD conversion was $900 with a 17.5 AH 48 v battery. Turns out DD was not suited for the 77 hills I cross on my commute, it used too much electricity lugging up hills. 1200 W geared hub motor from ebikeling.com is much more battery efficient. But in the flats at high speeds DD really shines. Note, I ground back the fat part of the axle shaft a 32nd to install thin washers inside the frame on it. These washers carry the pinch of my aluminum frame to the axle shaft, and keep the force off the motor cover. There is no thrust washer system in these DD motors, and pinching the motor cover made my unit bind up.
Have fun shopping, and riding.
 
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The first 2 questions I would suggest you consider:
Who is going to get their hands dirty when something goes wrong with this bike? If the answer is a local shop, you're pretty much forced to make your purchase there. Not many will be willing to work on an internet bike or give you a hand with a homebuilt. It sounds like you have the makings of a DIY'er. That really opens up the potential for a custom build or a really wide selection of different bikes sold direct to customers.

The second thing to consider is what drive type. Makes no difference where you get it, this is a major call and it needs to be made early on. Done properly this is going to involve research on direct drive rear hubs, gear driven rear hubs, and mid drives. All 3 have their advantages and disadvantages. There is no best drive type....no matter what you hear from some "experts". Know and understand each drive type then focus your search on just that type and your selection process will become much easier.

That said, I'm a lifetime resident of Waterford, now wintering in Florida. LOVE riding around the house (sidewalks and sub division streets) and the Metroparks are wonderful! As one that's read way to many accident reports, had too many close calls, and am old enough to be conservative by nature, I will not even consider sharing the road with vehicles 15-20 times the size of me. Too many distracted drivers, too many with scary priorites, and too much ignorance. Bike paths with nothing between the bikes and the vehicles but a painted line are wishfull thinking on the part of unwary bicyclists. They are SO dangerous!

I have a preference for geared hubs, as they do a good job of accelerating quickly for those busy intersections, and will take most hills in their stride. I would suggest a larger battery for extended range for your commute, something in the 17.5 -20 amp should work fine. This especially true after you learn how to use the bikes gears and PAS levels efficiently - there IS a learning curve!

Oh, and ask a lot of questions! Best of luck, -Al
 
A very high proportion of people these days are asking about motorcycle qualities in an electric assist bicycle. The key factor here is electric assist. There are pedals on these things, and they are made to be used. 40 miles at 28mph is getting out of bicycle territory, of course in my opinion. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to do that, along with hydraulic disc brakes to stop it.
 
there are some good kits available and a lot depends on your base bike, it's probably not a good idea to convert a bike into something capable of 28mph and rely on rim brakes. it's also worth considering if the original mechanics of your bike can handle the power and forces of a kit..are you considering a mid-mount kit delivering power through your chain and derailleur? will your rear hub and bearings be strong enough?. My own experience, I looked into many varied ebike kits and at the same time was keeping an eye on the used ebike market online and in the end, found a good used ebike for less than what it was going to cost me to covert a bike with a kit. the bike (Smartmotion Pacer) is well set up with built in lights, mudguards,hydraulic disc brakes, pannier rack, a 350watt rear hub motor and 14.5ah battery. I have put this bike to the test and done now over 800klm (500miles) on it and i know that when used in the lowest power setting combined with the torque sensor, i can easily pedal at and average speed of 27kph (17mph) with a range on the flat city area of 120klm (74miles).
 
Don't listen to anyone suggesting that you buy a production ebike. Get the perfect bike for you, add a BaFang mid-drive, make sure the frame (steel) can hold a 30Ah. triangle pack (EM3), get a control display and a Grin Satiator (charger). Motor, battery, display, and charger will be around $2000 and can be removed and/or upgraded at any time. The ability to climb hills with a load and not destroy the motor (hub-motors suck) along with range are the most important aspects of a great ebike that will be Used rather than just ridden for joy rides... it will be great for that too.
 

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there are some good kits available and a lot depends on your base bike, it's probably not a good idea to convert a bike into something capable of 28mph and rely on rim brakes. it's also worth considering if the original mechanics of your bike can handle the power and forces of a kit..are you considering a mid-mount kit delivering power through your chain and derailleur? will your rear hub and bearings be strong enough?. My own experience, I looked into many varied ebike kits and at the same time was keeping an eye on the used ebike market online and in the end, found a good used ebike for less than what it was going to cost me to covert a bike with a kit. the bike (Smartmotion Pacer) is well set up with built in lights, mudguards,hydraulic disc brakes, pannier rack, a 350watt rear hub motor and 14.5ah battery. I have put this bike to the test and done now over 800klm (500miles) on it and i know that when used in the lowest power setting combined with the torque sensor, i can easily pedal at and average speed of 27kph (17mph) with a range on the flat city area of 120klm (74miles).

74 miles on a 14Ah battery? And how long did that ride take? Do you know how bad it is for a lithium battery to be fully charged and fully depleted repeatedly? If you only use 60% of the packs capacity (Charge to 80%, don't deplete past 20%) you can triple the number of recharge cycles. I have a little over 10K miles on my ebike now and am still amazed at people talking about them like cute little electric motorcycles when they aren't.
 
The ability to climb hills with a load and not destroy the motor (hub-motors suck) along with range are the most important aspects of a great ebike that will be Used
My experience varies. 330 lb load, 77 hills in 30 miles, 4 at 15%, 3000 successful miles so far on a 1200 W 48 v geared hub motor from ebikeling.com. The most heat sensitive kind. Electric-bikes.com that refused to sell me a Mac12 geared hub, said crystal DD drive was much more suited for hill climbing. Drags when the power is off, I refuse to ride a DD hub. I had a DD hub, a 1000 W 48 v one from ebay for $189, performed okay but dragged with the power off the way I ride when the wind is not high.
 
Don't listen to anyone suggesting that you buy a production ebike. Get the perfect bike for you, add a BaFang mid-drive, make sure the frame (steel) can hold a 30Ah. triangle pack (EM3), get a control display and a Grin Satiator (charger). Motor, battery, display, and charger will be around $2000 and can be removed and/or upgraded at any time. The ability to climb hills with a load and not destroy the motor (hub-motors suck) along with range are the most important aspects of a great ebike that will be Used rather than just ridden for joy rides... it will be great for that too.

I would suggest that your "perfect bike" is very likely a much different bike than what I would consider "perfect", and the next guys "perfect bike" will very likely be different yet. My point is, telling somebody that they can't find their "perfect bike" in a production bike is misleading....
 
I don't think so. You buy "your" perfect bike and make it an ebike out of it... just like I said above. I know my bike isn't perfect for most and didn't say it was, for no other reason than that it cost a lot of money. "My point" was... no production ebike is perfect, but you're stuck with the frame, battery, motor, electronic for the life of the bike. Sorry you missed that the 1st time around. Do it right and you can upgrade "your" perfect bike any time you like and even be able to switch everything to a different frame down the road... so to speak.
 
Good commuter bikes:
(The HillEater GMAC 52V will be out soon, you will need to contact them)

Juiced CCX
52V 19.2Ah
Bafang hub motor

Hill Eater Galiano GMAC
52V (they claim 780Wh so 15Ah?)
GMAC motor

WattWagons
52V 17Ah (however people have requested for higher capacity and they were willing to customize depending on customer needs)
Bafang Ultra mid drive
What's good about them? Ones an average European commuter with a hub-motor on it.... yeah. The other is an overpriced (Way Over) hardtail with a bolt-on rack and little to no ability to upgrade the motor or electronics. Both come with batteries 1/2 the size they should be.
 
Just wanted to circle back here - if you are still in the market.

On the watt Wagons models,
  • We do the 52/17ah frame mountable battery that gives you 40-45 miles real world range @ avg 27/28mph. Some customers have done nearly 68 /75 miles at lower speeds and less assist.
  • However, if you are looking for longer range, say ~ 100 miles real world range @27/28 mph, there are a couple of options
    • You can go as high as 52v 28 or 30ah on a single battery. Will probably not be frame mounted (bag based). Can charge up to 10A. Incredible stuff.
    • If you want both batteries mounted on the frame,we also have a dual battery option. These can be charged at 8A.
Thanks
 
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