Load 60 2020 hs lacks power?

[Anders112]

Hey everyone.

I just received the new load 60 2020 model and got the dealer to replace the intuvia display with the bosch nyon.

I had a 2017 load 60 before with performance line cx motor.

The driving experience is very different with the new bike, it feels like the bike dosen't got the same amount of assist as the prevous models with the cargo line motor.
does any of you feel the same lack of power?.
I got enviolo gearing system with the belt drive on my new bike.

Hope you can come with some ideas what to do.

Kind regards
Anders

 

[Chris Nolte]

Anders, just ask your dealer to reprogram the motor to the non-cargo line version. It will make a world of difference.

 

[Alaskan]

Anders, just ask your dealer to reprogram the motor to the non-cargo line version. It will make a world of difference.

Just curious Chris. If you program a cargo line motor to the non-cargo line version does it reduce the maximum assist available from the 400% that the cargo line is supposed to feature? What is actually accomplished, more torque at lower assist levels? I am wondering whether Anders is experiencing the difference in power because of the change in drive system from derailleur to Vario. There is a 10-12% efficiency drop between the two, or at least there was back in the Nuvinci days.

What's The Difference In Speed Between Gearbox Systems? Rohloff, Pinion, Shimano - CyclingAbout

How do gearbox systems compare in terms of drivetrain efficiency? And what is the difference in cycling speed between gearbox options?

www.cyclingabout.com

 

[Chris Nolte]

Just curious Chris. If you program a cargo line motor to the non-cargo line version does it reduce the maximum assist available from the 400% that the cargo line is supposed to feature? What is actually accomplished, more torque at lower assist levels? I am wondering whether Anders is experiencing the difference in power because of the change in drive system from derailleur to Vario. There is a 10-12% efficiency drop between the two, or at least there was back in the Nuvinci days.

What's The Difference In Speed Between Gearbox Systems? Rohloff, Pinion, Shimano - CyclingAbout

How do gearbox systems compare in terms of drivetrain efficiency? And what is the difference in cycling speed between gearbox options?

www.cyclingabout.com

That’s exactly right. It’s overall more sporty but the assist level is lowered to 340% in the top assist. Unless you’re hauling very heavy loads the cargo line programming isn’t so ideal from my perspective.

 

[VarioHSDelite]

R&M need to give the user a choice in this matter, actually.

What if my sole purpose for this bike is a 16 mile round trip commute, and I'm ok with smoking both batteries in that 16 miles? I have been riding a class 2 throttle bike for the 16mi commute (the Diamondback Lindau EXC) that is plumb played out with a tired battery. I got two flats in a week and my wife felt bad for me, so she let me take the Delite to work one day.. Boy was I disappointed!

The Delite makes me work much too hard, even in turbo mode. While the Lindau is limited to 20mph and tired, it provides a lot more grunt up hill - the Delite lacks raw horsepower. I had considered getting another RM when this Diamondback finally dies, but I think I'm going to go with a Lunacycle instead.

Luna is making illegal class 4 E-bikes that have throttles and can go 40mph in some cases. Sure I don't need to go 40mph, but I'd like a bike where I put in my effort, whatever I determine that to be (I'm riding in a 3-piece suit here) and the bike makes up the rest, to hold 25mph no matter what the situation, preferably 30mph on the flats. This is only asking a mere 2mph more than the R&M Delite is claiming to assist to.. I don't consider this a large ask. I'd rather have a true turbo mode.

Thanks for this thread - I am extremely curious about the 2020 motors, and it's this very thing I'm interested in knowing.. I'm not dropping $12k on a bike that only goes 13MPH up a small overpass when I could spend $3500 on a bike that'll do 40MPH by itself. I'll deal with that fact its not belt driven, air suspension, etc etc.

 

[Alaskan]

I assume by your handle here on the forum that your delight is a HS Vario. It sounds to me like what you are experiencing more than anything is the power loss inherent in the Vario drive train. In the article I cited, the difference between the Rohloff and the Vario is a 11% additional wattage loss due to drive train inefficiency. The Rohloff and the derailleur systems test out at 95% efficient while the Vario is at 84% efficient. All of this has been well known for some time now.

It is also long been the case that the torque and performance difference between the High Speed Bosch motor and the CX, hill climbing mountain bike motor perform quite differently. It is my understanding that the 2020 Bosch motors all have the same maximum torque now but where and when they apply it differs between, cargo, CX and speed version.

Comparing an Bosch mid drive motor to a 500 watt rear hub motor is classic case of apple to oranges. One is going to be better for some people and vice versa.

Clearly the bike is wrong for you as you want something that will go fast uphill, you don't care about going much distance, can deal with having to charge a battery after less than 20 miles and apparently don't care much about the comfort of a front or rear suspension. I like those things and find them more important than hot rod performance (which I like too just not as much). I won't ride a bike without a suspension, with a high powered rear hub, short range and then turn around and trash talk it. It's not my kind of bike so why should anyone care what I think about it?

 

[VarioHSDelite]

In the article I cited, the difference between the Rohloff and the Vario is a 11% additional wattage loss due to drive train inefficiency. The Rohloff and the derailleur systems test out at 95% efficient while the Vario is at 84% efficient.

28MPH * 95% = 26.6MPH. Do you have the Rohloff, and if so, can you do 27MPH continuously, at least on flat ground? Do you feel like the bicycle is providing 275% to 340% of your effort towards that 27MPH continuous, assuming you can even achieve it?

I have had access to a HS Vario for ~2000 miles now and 28MPH * 84% = 23MPH, which is about the actual limit of the Vario on flat ground. I find this acceptable, except that up hill it's about half that, hence my complaint above.

Clearly the bike is wrong for you as you want something that will go fast uphill, you don't care about going much distance, can deal with having to charge a battery after less than 20 miles and apparently don't care much about the comfort of a front or rear suspension. I like those things and find them more important than hot rod performance (which I like too just not as much).

Many assumptions in that statement. Trail quality where I live is poor and I'd love to have a comfortable front and rear suspension. And unlike most of America, I could even spend the full $12k on a bike that can deliver that functionality. But I shall not, not on a bike that carries 13MPH up hill in Turbo mode.

This hot rod performance is often referred to as Turbo mode. I would expect Turbo to really deliver the mail, having a major sacrifice to battery life. I don't accept 13MPH up a slight hill over an overpass as "Turbo." Maybe Tour or Sport, but when i click into Turbo, I expect to sit at the limit (minus efficiency losses) of advertised.. not half that. I think the bike is capable of it, and Chris mentioned above that reflashing the computer can unleash more, so that could serve as proof that there is more to be had. And as I first mentioned, I think R&M should allow the end user an actual Turbo mode, one that does not do but 13MPH up a slight incline.

And apparently I am not the only one, as I didn't start this thread, the OP had similar concerns, especially given his experience on older versus newer, slower models.

In other threads I have told other users to spend the extra cash and get the R&M over other, inferior models. But that was prior to the 2020 offering - one major deficiency I have had with the Gen3 motors is that there is a lack of oomph. I had hoped to see that rectified in the Gen4s, but here is our first thread, a guy with the 400% Gen4, came right in complaining about lack of oomph, so I don't feel my claims are spurious or outlandish.

 

[Chris Nolte]

I would highly recommend you test a Gen 4 speed motor. I think you will he impressed with the results. The motor mentioned in the top of this thread is the cargo motor designed to carry heavy loads. Dealers have been advised to discuss this with customers as most will prefer the standard programming of the CX or speed respectively.

 

[Alaskan]

28MPH * 95% = 26.6MPH. Do you have the Rohloff, and if so, can you do 27MPH continuously, at least on flat ground? Do you feel like the bicycle is providing 275% to 340% of your effort towards that 27MPH continuous, assuming you can even achieve it?

I do have a Rohloff HS Homage and, in Turbo, can ride it at 26-27 mph on flat ground with no wind for up to a half hour. Riding at this pace is an athletic endeavor, not a gentle cruise. It has my heart rate at 125-130 and I break a good sweat. It is not a pace I would want to keep if I was commuting to work as I would arrive all sweaty. If I slowed down to 22 mph in Turbo, my heart rate drops to 85 and only sweat in hot weather. that 4-5 mph takes a lot more effort to sustain, but it is sustainable by an old guy who rides a lot.

I have had access to a HS Vario for ~2000 miles now and 28MPH * 84% = 23MPH, which is about the actual limit of the Vario on flat ground. I find this acceptable, except that up hill it's about half that, hence my complaint above.

Many assumptions in that statement. Trail quality where I live is poor and I'd love to have a comfortable front and rear suspension. And unlike most of America, I could even spend the full $12k on a bike that can deliver that functionality. But I shall not, not on a bike that carries 13MPH up hill in Turbo mode.

The assumptions were based on the bicycle you chose to use for comparison and how you described your ride circumstances.

This hot rod performance is often referred to as Turbo mode. I would expect Turbo to really deliver the mail, having a major sacrifice to battery life. I don't accept 13MPH up a slight hill over an overpass as "Turbo." Maybe Tour or Sport, but when i click into Turbo, I expect to sit at the limit (minus efficiency losses) of advertised.. not half that. I think the bike is capable of it, and Chris mentioned above that reflashing the computer can unleash more, so that could serve as proof that there is more to be had. And as I first mentioned, I think R&M should allow the end user an actual Turbo mode, one that does not do but 13MPH up a slight incline.

Again, apples and oranges, 500 watt hub motor with throttle on your Diamondback Lindau vs. 250 watt mid drive

And apparently I am not the only one, as I didn't start this thread, the OP had similar concerns, especially given his experience on older versus newer, slower models.

In other threads I have told other users to spend the extra cash and get the R&M over other, inferior models. But that was prior to the 2020 offering - one major deficiency I have had with the Gen3 motors is that there is a lack of oomph. I had hoped to see that rectified in the Gen4s, but here is our first thread, a guy with the 400% Gen4, came right in complaining about lack of oomph, so I don't feel my claims are spurious or outlandish.

As Chris said, wrong choice of Gen 4 motors for your comparrison. Speed seems to be your prime criterion. If so, try the gen 4 High Speed version before coming to a conclusion. I haven't ridden any of the Gen 4s yet so my comments are based on my Gen 3 HS motors. My most lively bike, the one with the greatest percieved power, is a Gen 3 CX that has a speed delimiting dongle. That is enough hot rod for me. I am sure someone accustomed to a high power hub with throttle would feel differently.

 

[Chris Nolte]

Just one point of clarity. All CX, Speed and Performance Line Motors in the US have been Gen 2 (small chainring) until the Gen 4 motors were introduced for the 2020 Model Year (larger chainring, smaller magnesium casing) . Gen 3 was initially just the Active and Active Plus and now will have the addition of the Performace Line (20mph 65Nm) for 2020.

 

[Alaskan]

Just one point of clarity. All CX, Speed and Performance Line Motors in the US have been Gen 2 (small chainring) until the Gen 4 motors were introduced for the 2020 Model Year (larger chainring, smaller magnesium casing) . Gen 3 was initially just the Active and Active Plus and now will have the addition of the Performace Line (20mph 65Nm) for 2020.

Thanks for the correction Chris. All my references to Gen 3 should have read Gen 2.

 

[dylanmac]

I just purchased a 2019 Load (not HS) and I am experiencing the same lack of power going up hills. I traded up from a 2017 Yuba Spicy Curry which seemed a lot more powerful on the same uphill stretch I ride every day. I don't know if the CX motor on the Yuba was 1st gen or 2nd but the difference in power uphill is very noticeable. I'm wondering if it's because the Load is a heavier bike? Or is it possibly because the cranks are further forward on the Load (by design to increase reach as you increase the saddle height) and impede the input power of my legs. Any thoughts on this?

I had a derailleur on my Yuba and have a Nuvinci on the Load. I suppose that could account for it but it feels >10% less powerful.

 

[Mike Owen]

Hi there Dylanmac.

I don’t have much previous experience with eBikes or cargo bikes but I got a Load 60 Vario just before Christmas. It is a 2020 model year bike with the Gen 4 motor Cargo Line. My uphill performance hasn’t been as good as hoped. But I have some seriously steep hills round here. Several over 1 in 3. All have defeated me. Walk assist is brilliant! Don’t know if this is down to lack of motor power, or weak pilot power, or limited low gear range of Enviolo hub, or weight of bike, or tricky balancing act at super low speeds up super steep hills on a super heavy bike (if so I wonder if even a Rohloff would be able to get up?).

If your bike really is a 2019 model it will likely have the Gen 2 CX motor. If it is however an early 2020 model it should have Gen 4 programmed as Cargo Line (guess the motor cover plate on the left will tell you).

At the first service I’m intending to get my bike shop to reprogram the motor to Gen 4 Performance Line CX as suggested by Chris “Load” Nolte above. Will report back on the effect.

Sorry if your Load really has Gen 2: all of the above won’t help and I wasted your time!

BTW I think the Enviolo is a superb gear control. Just wish they did an option with lower range for the crazy hills.

 

[dylanmac]

Sorry if your Load really has Gen 2: all of the above won’t help and I wasted your time!

Hi Mike. Yes I definitely have a Gen 2 for sure. Thanks for your suggestion.

 

[actaswu]

Anders, just ask your dealer to reprogram the motor to the non-cargo line version. It will make a world of difference.

Hi,
How do you mean re-program the motor?
Like downloading the image from a Performance speed motor gen4 (e.g. Supercharger HS) and reprogram the Cargo Line Speed with that image?
I

 

[webcurl]

This hot rod performance is often referred to as Turbo mode. I would expect Turbo to really deliver the mail, having a major sacrifice to battery life. I don't accept 13MPH up a slight hill over an overpass as "Turbo." Maybe Tour or Sport, but when i click into Turbo, I expect to sit at the limit (minus efficiency losses) of advertised.. not half that. I think the bike is capable of it, and Chris mentioned above that reflashing the computer can unleash more, so that could serve as proof that there is more to be had. And as I first mentioned, I think R&M should allow the end user an actual Turbo mode, one that does not do but 13MPH up a slight incline.

You want a Moped with racing fuel?