Kindernay observations and few questions for Pushkar

Merlin said:
Have you tried to order directly through Kindernay? I just received 5 oil change kits from them, shipping was $85 from Norway though. Imo, the Kindernay VII is the finest gearing for Ebikes, and will be in short supply as demand for it goes through the roof.
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I haven't. I was hoping to find a USA shop if possible. Thanks.
 
One issue came up with the Kindernay/belt was lack of tools at the local bike shop for removing the rear wheel gear cog for the belt. I have ordered a Gates strap wrench at a cost of $70. I also ordered a 16 tooth 41mm socket to remove the lock ring. Removal of the gear was necessary for performing the oil change on the Kindernay. The quick release on the rear wheel was very handy, and having a bike stand was also necessary for the rear wheel removal. The local bike shop has been great on everything else, but belt drives and especially Kindernay is out of their wheel house, lol.
 
I said no belt on Hydra.
It is tricky to get a belt on a full suspension MTB.
The large rear travel and the offset between the swingarm axis and the bottom bracket can create a very large belt path difference across the suspension range, requiring a tensioner that can take a lot of slack which is not always possible in the space available.
 
I think there is some confusion here.
Derailleurs are gear systems for Chain and are INSTEAD of a gear box like the Kindernay.

If you have a Kindernay Gear box, you do NOT have a derailleur. What you do have is a Tensioner to take the slack of the chain when the rear travel changes with the suspension. In order to take all the slack created by a Full suspension MTB, this is usually a dual wheel tensioner.

If you want a belt, you also need a tensioner, but in addition to being able to take the slack, it also needs to provide enough tension for the belt (way more than for a chain). So far, belt tensioners that can provide enough tension are single wheel and usually cannot take all the slack of the belt on a full suspension MTB.

A dual wheel tensioner with enough tensioning strength for a belt could eventually be developed (I happen to know because I designed and built one :) ) but has not been done and released as a functional solution by any manufacturer.

So Hydras, for now, cannot have a belt drive
 
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Gates belts have very very low tolerance for angular and axial alignment, there are other belt drives that aren't as popular like Veer Split Belt that are more forgiving and don't require a special frame. There are very very full suspension bikes with belt drives especially Gates because there's also a very narrow window of acceptable tension for their belts - again I think something the Veer setup is more forgiving with, but I'm willing to wager the Veer belts with higher tolerances aren't going to be as reliable at higher power/speed - or maybe not as worry-free. Maybe not! Here you can see some close-ups of two difference belt tensioner setups from Nicolai and one from Riese + Muller. The Nicolai bikes are legit mountainbikes with lots of travel, and you can see they have some relatively complicated setups compared to a chain tensioner - room for lots of travel and a captured spring with linkage - probably a variable rate across travel to stay in that window of acceptable tension. Seems like the way they all end up going is keeping the tensioner at the drive cog and then just having a roller on the bottom of the rear cog that keeps anything from pulling the belt off.
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Nicolai is able to make it work on their bike because the rear travel is much smaller, the swingarm axis is close to the bottom bracket, and designed so it allows the tensioner to move up a lot.
On a bike like the hydra that is not designed for it, has a large rear travel and a different swingarm offset, that single wheel tensioner could not be implemented and provide enough range to take all the slack.
 
The Nicolai bikes have 160mm rear travel - I thought Hydra has 150mm? The R+M is definitely way lower though. I think suspension geometry has more to do with it along with frame flex. I want to say I recall seeing somewhere in a thread Pushkar mentioned frame flex being an issue for the Hydra when it comes to belt drive - but maybe not.
 
Last time I checked I had measured 170mm, but I don't have a bike to confirm. But you are right a big part also comes from the geometry of the swingarm.
First the offset of the swingarm axis from the BB which causes the chain/belt path to increase when the rear wheel goes up.
And second the room it offers for a tensioner to move up and down without interfering with the swingarm

I have not heard of any issue with the frame flex, I doubt this is an issue. The stress potentially induced by MTB riding on the frame has to be way more significant than the belt tension.
 
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My belt and Kindernay are on the UC Pro. Wattwagons is working on a belt tensioner for a future full suspension bike. The rear portion of the frame needs to split to allow assembly for a belt. I love how bikes are evolving, but wish it could happen much faster. The UC Pro is the perfect bike for road and gravel, making it a perfect commuter bike. A belt drive dirt bike with IGH would be awesome!
 
loamoaf said:
The Nicolai bikes have 160mm rear travel - I thought Hydra has 150mm? The R+M is definitely way lower though. I think suspension geometry has more to do with it along with frame flex. I want to say I recall seeing somewhere in a thread Pushkar mentioned frame flex being an issue for the Hydra when it comes to belt drive - but maybe not.
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R+M is 100mm of travel standard (Delite or Superdelite) and is 140mm if you add the GX option with or without the Fox upgrade. The mountain version is 150mm.
 
I just changed the oil on my Kindernay VII for the first time. The UC Pro had 200 miles on it, and was popping under high load. The oil was grey, thick, and greasy. There was a problem performing the oil change because the Gates Belt cog was interfering with removing the oil plug. I had to order a Gates strap wrench ($70), a 44mm 16 tooth spanner ($30) to remove the lock ring and cog to access the plug, and a star tool to remove the plug20220712_115806_HDR.jpg
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. I also had to buy a bike repair stand ($120) because the local shop could not do the oil change for lack of the tools. Our local bike shop fortunately had the spanner for purchase, but I had to order the strap wrench. The popping noise is gone, and the hub is much quieter with the oil change. Once I had all the tools, the operation was very simple, and I am thrilled with the bike.
 
So, is it a consensus that Magura Royal Blood hydraulic brake fluid can be used in the Kindernay V11 hub?
Pushkar sent me enough to refill the hub, but not enough for a flush and refill. I thought I'd do the flush with the Royal Blood and the refill with the red fluid that Pushkar sent me.
Also, anything to look out for when taking off the wheel to drain the hub?
 
Deacon Blues said:
So, is it a consensus that Magura Royal Blood hydraulic brake fluid can be used in the Kindernay V11 hub?
Pushkar sent me enough to refill the hub, but not enough for a flush and refill. I thought I'd do the flush with the Royal Blood and the refill with the red fluid that Pushkar sent me.
Also, anything to look out for when taking off the wheel to drain the hub?
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NOT IN the Hub !! You need Kindernay Oil for that

But you can use it for the Hydraulic lines of the Kindernay shifter.
 
That's good to know!
What are the sources for the Kindernay oil.....Kindernay.....Pushkar.....anywhere else?
 
As far as I know Kindernay.
Pushkar did say he was going to stock some a long time ago, but I have no idea if that actually happened.
I would start with him, as shipping from Sweden is steep...
Next, I would ask Kindernay if they have US reseller stocking it. I know Cycle monkey in California was supposed to resell Kindernay.
 
Well......and then there's the "scrambler honorary stockpile" over at Merle's house. (He kindly gave me some excess hub oil received from Kindernay.)

Deacon, how much do you figure you need? Oil flush only is 20ml if I recall. Sound right scrambler?
 
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