Keeping it Legal for the Common Good, Staying Within the Legal Classes

[DaveMatthews]

Yeah, it was silly to us. These agencies are stuck with trying to please everyone. Environmental groups claim heavy bikes damage trails; parents and grandparents worry about a heavy bike hitting a kid, so the result is compromise. 75 probably covers the vast majority of class 1 bikes.

I get it.
My Stance is about 54lb and I'm 230lb.
A 76lb bike with a 150lb rider is certainly not out of the question, and that's less than me.
Something tells me a 54lb bike hitting anyone is going to be traumatic no matter the age, never mind if I hit the kid.
That said rules are rules.

 

[Elkman]

At the heart of the problem is the increased number of older people starting to bicycle with the advent of e-bikes and many of them are clueless. Cities were long ago taken over by the auto interests with their buying up and then dismantling light rail operators across the USA. As a result both bicyclists and pedestrians are put in harms way in this country. I have seen badly thought out bike lanes and bike paths for the past 50 years in California where the city and state traffic engineers create hazardous conditions out of negligence and incompetence. When freeways were first being built and traffic fatalities increased dramatically the highway engineers blamed the motorists. Then an independent study was done and it concluded the most of the incidents were the result of bad freeway designs.

The idea that someone with an e-bike is going to travel at high speed and present more of a risk is wrong. In my teens the cyclists would go down State Street in Santa Barbara on their road bikes and go over 50 mph and the ones that got a ticket from a speed trap got bragging rights. For my part 50 mph is my maximum speed and that is on a regular racing level road bike with no motor.

The problem is when pedestrians who are seldom aware of their surroundings (watch people in a grocery store with their shopping carts) and busy chatting on their cell phones will walk in front of bicycle at the last moment which results in a collision. Bicyclists at 15 mph are not "speeding" but have a braking distance that is longer than pedestrians appreciate. It is so much of a problem that my wife and I avoid the bike paths and prefer city streets where we can bicycle faster and without pedestrians. On bike paths we have people with baby strollers and people walking dogs, on and off a leash, and toddlers roaming across the path. I can come over a hill on a path and find people chatting and standing directly in the path and who are bothered when I suggest that they stop blocking the path.

The only solution is to do what cities in Europe have done and that is to prohibit motor vehicles from many city streets during the day. In many cases removing the taxpayer subsidized street parking would be a great help instead of putting bike "lanes" alongside parked cars and having car doors opened suddenly in front of bicyclists. But this requires intelligence and integrity with our city officials and engineers and planners which is sadly lacking.

 

[AHicks]

At the heart of the problem is the increased number of older people starting to bicycle with the advent of e-bikes and many of them are clueless. Cities were long ago taken over by the auto interests with their buying up and then dismantling light rail operators across the USA. As a result both bicyclists and pedestrians are put in harms way in this country. I have seen badly thought out bike lanes and bike paths for the past 50 years in California where the city and state traffic engineers create hazardous conditions out of negligence and incompetence. When freeways were first being built and traffic fatalities increased dramatically the highway engineers blamed the motorists. Then an independent study was done and it concluded the most of the incidents were the result of bad freeway designs.

The idea that someone with an e-bike is going to travel at high speed and present more of a risk is wrong. In my teens the cyclists would go down State Street in Santa Barbara on their road bikes and go over 50 mph and the ones that got a ticket from a speed trap got bragging rights. For my part 50 mph is my maximum speed and that is on a regular racing level road bike with no motor.

The problem is when pedestrians who are seldom aware of their surroundings (watch people in a grocery store with their shopping carts) and busy chatting on their cell phones will walk in front of bicycle at the last moment which results in a collision. Bicyclists at 15 mph are not "speeding" but have a braking distance that is longer than pedestrians appreciate. It is so much of a problem that my wife and I avoid the bike paths and prefer city streets where we can bicycle faster and without pedestrians. On bike paths we have people with baby strollers and people walking dogs, on and off a leash, and toddlers roaming across the path. I can come over a hill on a path and find people chatting and standing directly in the path and who are bothered when I suggest that they stop blocking the path.

The only solution is to do what cities in Europe have done and that is to prohibit motor vehicles from many city streets during the day. In many cases removing the taxpayer subsidized street parking would be a great help instead of putting bike "lanes" alongside parked cars and having car doors opened suddenly in front of bicyclists. But this requires intelligence and integrity with our city officials and engineers and planners which is sadly lacking.

Well said!! MANY pieces of this absolutely spot on.

On the bold, couldn't agree more, and as far as I'm concerned the more the merrier.

 

[Cowlitz]

In my lovely, bucolic county the Forest Service and Game Commission owns 172800 acres you for the most part you cannot do much on( they stole the private land early on, plus something called the"big survey" where they came in and literally took all the high ground) no dedicated MTB trails,you can ride on the logging roads where wheeled vehicles are permitted, thats basically it.The Forestry office has a mix of Male and Female employees, the gals seem to inhabit the office, none of them seem to do much of anything ,the logging roads are in such horrid condition that I stop regularly and rock pick stretches of road. I suspect you could be ticketed rather easily knew a Ranger or employee or two that seemed to enjoy that, there will probably be rules here so you can receive tickets.

If you are talking about the feds, there are books out there on the history. For instance, the upper part of Wisconsin was homesteaded early on, homesteaders could not make a living as the land was poor and left. The Forest Service took it on. It was called The Land Nobody Wanted and was reforested. A really good read that goes into the history a bit, is The Big Burn which was also made into a PBS documentary. Your version is a lot different.

The west had what was called Forest Reserves. Foresters were concerned about the cut and run habits of the big timber companies so land was put in this reserve to be used or not in a reasonable way--protecting it from over cutting. Gifford Pinchot, who studied forestry in Germany, was the head of it.

I'm one of the "gals" that worked for the FS. Didn't stay in the office much. I was out working on timber sales. And yes, the FS here does have MTB trails. A local ski area is trying to capitalize on that. It's fairly new but the bike trails have existed for a bit and are cross country ski trails in the winter. E bikes are considered to be motorized by the FS so are not allowed on bike trails.

 

[Solarcabin]

The Forest Service currently allows e-bikes on all Forest Service roads that are already open to motorized vehicles, as well on 60,000 miles of motorized trails, which represent 38% of all trails the agency manages.

USDA Forest Service Issues Guidance to Manage Future E-Bike Use on National Forests and Grasslands | US Forest Service

The U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Forest Service is announcing that internal guidance on how future e-bike use is managed on national forests and grasslands has been finalized. The updated guidance clarifies existing policy and provides guidelines to local Forest Service employees that may be...

www.fs.usda.gov

 

[Cowlitz]

I knew I would get a reaction, the FS around is so poor they cannot even grade the access roads, down at the "Gathright" lake and rec area they run a group of volunteers off that were doing their work for them( said they were trespassing( public anyone?) they said they didn't have money to repair the storm damage so they simply closed it, seems like they have plenty of personnel but little money for the lightning[thunder is impressive.,] around here they basically grabbed land from poor people, the "Big survey, et al" had an uncle they "bought" His land for 25 cents an acre, People around here were so poor they could barely scrape by on their little 'sustanence farms" I do not need a book I had first-hand testimony from a lot of the oldsters, the Eastern decidouis forests just hang on by a thread anyway( the dry summers are taking a toll on the oaks and what have you) climate change seems to be working on the Hemlocks, White Walnuts, and other species, Google what happened to the "Hollow People" when it was decided to take their land to build a scenic byway and those atrtocous "clear cuts" have took a toll on the forests, they are never the same for at least a few generations. Some the first"clear-cuts in this area have never recovered, this is not the "Shenandoah Valley". The "Feds " were usually looked upon with suspicion, they certainly were not the goodY guys early on( My brother married an ex govt employee(FS) and she sure has some strange ideas( ask Her how much melting ice will raise the water levels if it is already floating -answer zero-tell Her that)- Shalom Monster ebikes should be banned not the little 250-500 watt styles.

Yup just a "gal" in the office working on one of them un maintained roads thinking "don't drop the saw." That's a bridge. Here's the office.

Now, a real world story on the gutting of the FS. When I first started working on a district in Western WA, there were 5 ranger districts. That was in the mid 1980s. Our district, which had the fewest people, could put together and ship out 3 fire crews of 20 people each. If you were a field going person, you went out on fires no matter what department you worked in. Now, I returned to work there in 2005. The 5 districts had merged into three. The budget had been cut 10% many times as announced by the various administrations and Congress so not many folks were available to send out. Road maintenance, which was once performed as part of the timber sale program by timber sale purchasers, was really cut back as only a smidgeon of timber was being sold. You want budgets cut, you will get services cut. That's the way it is.

A book for you to read, if you actually care to learn more on the topic outside of your eastern world, is The Greatest Good. That along with The Big Burn, gives a more unbiased look at the history of the FS.

I am thankful for all the gubmint land. It provides me with places to recreate in. The alternative can be seen on the private lands, where no trespassing signs abound. I used to cut firewood and pick berries out in the forest so it also provided those. I usually head up with my travel trailer and camp for $4 a night. If I didn't want to pay that, there are places where I could camp for free. Much better than some gazillionaire owning the land, fencing it, and keeping it for their private playground.

 

[Ken M]

I don’t want to get too sidetracked with the details, but I do understand that regulators have to set limits somewhere. The same thing happened with the FAA regarding ultralight aircraft, (power, weight and fuel capacity). Some argued that the weight limit meant that the aircraft would be less heavily built, (dangerous), and that less power reduces climb rate making the aircraft more dangerous as well. The thing is that you don’t really want to make those points too loudly because the FAA might agree that those underpowered and lightly built aircraft are not airworthy, so poof, no more ultralight aircraft.

Regarding operator vs vehicle weight. A heavy person tends to be a pliable mass where the vehicle is solid. The combined mass of heavy person and heavy bike is more dangerous than that same heavy person on a lightweight bike.

Is there any data that supports you rider weight + bike weight claims? Probably not.

 

[mschwett]

Is there any data that supports you rider weight + bike weight claims? Probably not.

try this:

have someone drop your 10lb ebike battery on your foot from 20 feet.

then repeat with a 10lb cat.

which hurts more?

 

[Djangodog]

Is there any data that supports you rider weight + bike weight claims? Probably not.

Is there any data that supports you rider weight + bike weight claims? Probably not.

Basically, getting hit by something soft, (overweight person), causes less damage than a hard object would, (heavy bike).

I’m sure that the data exists, but the concept seems to be obvious enough. You are of course welcome to show data to the contrary. Maybe you can show that getting hit by a pillow traveling at 100 feet per second would cause the same damage as a rock of equal mass moving at the same velocity, but probably not.

 

[Ken M]

dont know about the wattage output of some,my estimations changed considerably when i saw a guy( cadet probably) running full tilt up "observatory hill" at uva while piggy backing a full grown adult, some people are beasts!

Going down just a 5% grade any rider can easily hit 40mph. Going down a 10% grade you don't even have to pedal to hit 50mph. There is so much that is ignore in the ebike debate. Below 20mph the NHTSA doesn't even car about max power which explains why the federal ebike definition only establishes a power limit above 20mph at the level that would sustain a 170lb at 20mph on a level surface (which is around 300-350W depending on bike type). I know most technical ignorant people think the federal definition established a 750W limit but that is NOT TRUE - it's a rating which engineers can explain or you can go to Grin's website and read more on this.

 

[PedalUma]

I am not about to debate, but it is ironic when a Hyundai can go 0-60 in 3.4 seconds in a 25 mph residential zone or in front of a grade school when that is not physically restricted.

 

[jabberwocky]

dont know about the wattage output of some,my estimations changed considerably when i saw a guy( cadet probably) running full tilt up "observatory hill" at uva while piggy backing a full grown adult, some people are beasts!

The good news is we don't really have to speculate about power outputs for elite/pro cyclists, many of them post training and race numbers. The top guys can sustain ~5w/kg for an hour, and in the 4-4.5w/kg for 3-4 hours. Rider weights vary (dedicated climbers tend to be super thin, time trialists and sprinters are heavier and generalists are somewhere in the middle) but that translates to a few hundred watts average over multi-hour rides.

During the 2023 tour de frances last time trial, Jonas Vingegaard (eventual tour winner) pushed 465w average over 32min, winning the stage. It should be noted this was considered an absolutely massive effort on his part.

Dedicated time trialists generally put out the biggest numbers (since time trials don't allow tactics like drafting and are usually pretty flat so power to weight is less important than raw power). Elite cyclists doing stuff like the hour record average in the 400-450w range for the full hour.

Sprinters can put out absolutely bonkers numbers (in the thousands of watts) when sprinting at the end of a stage, but they can only sustain it for a few seconds.

Going down just a 5% grade any rider can easily hit 40mph. Going down a 10% grade you don't even have to pedal to hit 50mph.

Neither of these are true statements. On your average normie road bike riding on the hoods down a 10% grade you'll probably get into the low 30s without pedaling. If you have a very aero bike with low rolling resistance and are riding in the drops to reduce frontal area you can maybe get to 45mph coasting. Wind resistance force is an exponent in that equation so it fights you very fast. If you're riding something more upright (basically anything that isn't a road bike) those numbers decrease quite a bit. If you're very heavy those numbers do go up.

Down a 5% grade on an average bike (like a hardtail MTB), a 200lb rider would need to be putting in ~1000w to hit 40mph. Even on a nice road bike riding in the drops you'd need to input 400+watts to hit 40mph. Definitely not numbers that "any rider" can put up.