Juggernaut duo: is geared hub enough?

[Blake Cheetah]

Hola!
Is the 750 watt hub drive on the new Juggernaut Duo powerful enough to help me navigate the hills of Vancouver? I'm 250 lbs. and am totally distracted by Biktrix's presale low price ($1399 usd) during their indiegogo campaign.
Sure,the mid drive is proven to be stronger,but seems high-maintenance,not to mention $400 more.
Also,the geared hub version comes with torque sensor.The mid drive only has cadence.
Any constructive opinions? Gracias.

 

[ElevenAD]

on flat ground its fine but at 250lb its not enough for hills, get the mid,the 1000watt middrive not the 750.
saving a few bucks means nothing if the bike wont do what you need it to do.

 

[Blake Cheetah]

Thanks for the insight,Eleven.
Agreed,the low price tag/branding effect can be blinding,but after test riding a Radrover yesterday,and being relatively blown away at its uphill torque,my hope was that somehow the same would apply to the new iteration of the Juggernaut.
Having tried a 1000 w 2017 Juggernaut mid drive on the same hills,I can say it felt dangerously torquey by my standards.Lurchy too; accidental wheelies.That said, would the 750w mid drive be a dud on hills? My main concerns are (paved road) uphill prowess, and range,low maintenance; not much into offroad.
Thanks again.

 

[Blake Cheetah]

Stumped?

 

[TLam]

I'd bet the hub motor would work OK for you, but I wanted to try a mid-drive and the price difference factoring in compone nt and battery upgrade was a wash.
Lots of threads on EBR (not all on this brand forum) with good discussion of the choice of drives. Search...

Mid drives vs Hub drives ???

Just throwing this out there to see what people think who have owned both a mid drive and a hub drive ebike. Thus far, after selling ebikes for 3 years, and following, researching, testing, riding them since the late 90's, I'm having a hard time identifying why someone would want to pay...

electricbikereview.com

Just got the ultra eagle - getting used to the midrive?

I have had the juiced bikes fat tire Ripcurrent S with bafang 750w rear hub motor for 1.5 yrs and now I decided I wanted a mid drive so I got the ultra eagle. Has anybody else came here from a rear hub bike and switch to a mid drive? I feel like it's going to take me a bit to get used to. The...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Blake Cheetah]

TLam,thanks for the edifying links.Bet your informed decision re:mid drive pays off.Happy Trails.

 

[ElevenAD]

Thanks for the insight,Eleven.
Agreed,the low price tag/branding effect can be blinding,but after test riding a Radrover yesterday,and being relatively blown away at its uphill torque,my hope was that somehow the same would apply to the new iteration of the Juggernaut.
Having tried a 1000 w 2017 Juggernaut mid drive on the same hills,I can say it felt dangerously torquey by my standards.Lurchy too; accidental wheelies.That said, would the 750w mid drive be a dud on hills? My main concerns are (paved road) uphill prowess, and range,low maintenance; not much into offroad.
Thanks again.

if the 1000watt mid was to powerful for you and the power of the Rad was good for your riding style i would for sure go for the Hub motor Jugg! use all the cash you save for sweet accessories!........ oh and to answer your other question, no the 750mid drive will not be a Dud on hills, middrives eat hills because you can just drop to a low gear cruise right up!

 

[Blake Cheetah]

Yes E,appreciate Yr version.
The 1000w was tuned to 1500 w so that’s maybe why both the owner and myself popped half-wheelies.
That uphill accelerating blew my mind.

Btw, the 500w (CDN setting) Rad was no rocket, but workable,and really smooth.
Hoping that same torque could at least be matched by Duo 750w hubmotor as well.Have to guess.
The hubdrive in question has the added bonus of torque sensor.More intuitive.Smoother than mid drive cadence.Guessing.
And I want to be able to go slow,fully take in the world around me.Doable with cadence sensor middrive?
Ultimately,hill torque counts a lot,without compromising a smooth,laidback ride.If the payoff is less comfort,I’ll pass.

Time’s running out on this presale.I’ve only been debating this since Nov.11th.So much for jumping on it.
Kudos for the time.

 

[theemartymac]

The other consideration on the hub drive and hills is heat build up. They do get hot quickly if your speed drops below 10kph or so under heavy throttle or assist levels. I have 2 Rize Bikes, the Rize x is the Bafang 750 hub, and the RX Pro is the 1000w Ultra mid drive. The mid drive absolutely demolishes the hub on the hills and wants for nothing. The hub does struggle on any grades over 7-8% and I can overheat it and fault out the controller in about 2-4 minutes based on the grade. I'm a big guy about 300lbs, so lighter riders won't likely have quite the same level of problem.

If I keep the speed up over 10-15kph, it will run for 5 minutes or more on those grades, but will still fault out eventually. The mid drive hasn't complained yet at anything I've given it, and I haven't even been that gentle on it, as I would like to know it's limits.

Credit to the 750 hub though, is that it's wonderful to ride on the flats and gentle grades around the city here (Victoria). I kept both bikes as I do prefer the ease and simplicity of the hub in town. For long rides, the hillier parts of town, and out in the woods however, the mid is just far more capable, and the Rize mid has both cadence and torque sensors.

 

[Blake Cheetah]

Theemartymac,yr well chosen words are not wasted on me,and I thank you for yr insight.
You just underlined my dilemma re:smooth vs. Efficient.
If you know North Marine Drive in Vancouver,when the road goes uphill (for a good while) at Acadia Beach,this is where mid drive torque would be handy.Only true road warriors conquer this hill with gusto.
Seems I have to accept a trade-off.
As someone who gravitates toward simplicity,does choosing mid drive mean a less relaxed experience overall? No more laidback lazy beach cruiser headrushes? Total unwavering mindfulness?
Your words have sway.

The other consideration on the hub drive and hills is heat build up. They do get hot quickly if your speed drops below 10kph or so under heavy throttle or assist levels. I have 2 Rize Bikes, the Rize x is the Bafang 750 hub, and the RX Pro is the 1000w Ultra mid drive. The mid drive absolutely demolishes the hub on the hills and wants for nothing. The hub does struggle on any grades over 7-8% and I can overheat it and fault out the controller in about 2-4 minutes based on the grade. I'm a big guy about 300lbs, so lighter riders won't likely have quite the same level of problem.

If I keep the speed up over 10-15kph, it will run for 5 minutes or more on those grades, but will still fault out eventually. The mid drive hasn't complained yet at anything I've given it, and I haven't even been that gentle on it, as I would like to know it's limits.

Credit to the 750 hub though, is that it's wonderful to ride on the flats and gentle grades around the city here (Victoria). I kept both bikes as I do prefer the ease and simplicity of the hub in town. For long rides, the hillier parts of town, and out in the woods however, the mid is just far more capable, and the Rize mid has both cadence and torque sensors.

 

[theemartymac]

Theemartymac,yr well chosen words are not wasted on me,and I thank you for yr insight.
You just underlined my dilemma re:smooth vs. Efficient.
If you know North Marine Drive in Vancouver,when the road goes uphill (for a good while) at Acadia Beach,this is where mid drive torque would be handy.Only true road warriors conquer this hill with gusto.
Seems I have to accept a trade-off.
As someone who gravitates toward simplicity,does choosing mid drive mean a less relaxed experience overall? No more laidback lazy beach cruiser headrushes? Total unwavering mindfulness?
Your words have sway.

It's not dramatically different, but noticeable. The biggest difference I find is the shift interruption on the mid-drive. Since there is so much torque being delivered by the Ultra 1000, they have a sensor that interrupts the power momentarily when you shift. It's there to protect the drivetrain from damage and extend the service life, so it's quite necessary, but it means if you need to shift on the hill it drops the power for a moment. Just long enough for the shift to complete, but on steeper hills it does drop the speed a little and can sometimes results in a situation where you try and shift down one gear, but lose enough speed during the pause that you immediately need to do it again, and maybe again, and suddenly you're in a granny gear and trying to get back up to speed. It's just a learning curve, and once you get the hang of it you will know when to drop a double gear (which is easy BTW with the double-throw shifter). Not a deal breaker, but by comparison, the hub provides seamless power all the time so you can shift at will with no power interruption at all.

Also the hub allows you to start from a dead stop with throttle-only in the event you get caught in high gear at a stop light. That's quite nice to get you rolling, and then you can shift to the appropriate gear right away or at your leisure with no interruption. On the mid, if you catch a stale light and come to a short stop in high gear, you are left starting off with a slower speed until the motor spins up into the power band, and you can't change gears right away as the shift interruption will prevent a good steady acceleration. Again, just requires the development of a little muscle-memory to instinctively downshift whenever you are coming to a stop, but it's definitely a spot where the hub shines.

Ultimately, there is probably little in Metro Van south of the Harbour that would prove troublesome with the hub as long as you're willing to put the steady effort in on an occasional hill, and get up on the pedals on the rare short-steep climb. North Van, Burnaby, New West, etc. you will want/appreciate the mid for sure. And if you want to be able to carry a little cargo and just not worry about a lack of power ever, then the mid is the better choice. If I could only keep one of my bikes, it would be the mid hands-down, but I would be very sad to lose the hub. Once 1500w hubs are commonplace, life will be grand! lol

 

[Blake Cheetah]

Theemartymac!
That’s a potent,useful,focused description of the situation at hand; much obliged.Clarity=decisiveness.
Your precise sketch of switching gears uphill especially resonated.My current lazy technique (on a 21-speed GT Airstream cruiser) may have to evolve just a bit,but these skills are often transferable.
Ironically,I’d just been checking distances of various destinations nearby.All seem well within the lower estimated range of a single 52v 17ah battery.Seems to be no need for a range extender,for now.
Ultimately you did help me reach a conclusion: mid drive It is.
Happy trails and may it all come back to you.