Is Staggering Tires a growing trend???

Ken M

Well-Known Member
I've seen a few high end brands/models of mtn ebikes (Fantic for example) going with 27.5 rear and 29 front rim/tire diameters. This is something that has been mainstream configuration on most street and off-road motorcycles for decades and I'm just wondering if it's going to become the defacto standard on most ebikes in the next few years. I think with the the motorized assist that ebikes have the geometry and handling characteristics that won out on motorcycles will prove too good to not transition to eBikes. I'm just wondering what other riders think about this.

I ride a mtn bike style ebike that had 27.5 / 650b tires sizes and I changed out the front to a 29 when I decided to to with a rigid carbon fork in place of the suspension fork. I run Kenda kwick wide (2.2-2.4") street tires on bike and I truly believe the bike rides and handles far better like this than it did before the change (probably a little bit related to the carbon fork being 2+ lbs lighter but even the ride quality is excellent).

Note: I read that a Haibike employee and pro rider placed 2nd on a Haibike in an EU pro ebike enduro race recently. I believe that brought some visibility to this growing trend.
 
Throughout mtb history there have been instances of using different diameter wheels on the front and the rear. 20/26, 24/26 were done in the 80's and early 90's. After 29" wheels debuted in '99 they were used in conjunction with 26" wheels also and in fact Trek even made a version. All these were set up with the larger diameter wheel in the front and the smaller in the rear. Also due to the fact that there wasn't a big variety of rim widths and tire widths there was a pretty good discrepancy in that the front was higher than the rear which had a negative effect on the geometry unless the bike was designed around the concept. Overall it didn't really catch the public interest.

As noted motorcycles, especially off road types, have used different wheel sizes for years. But primarily so that a fatter tire running on a wider rim of lesser diameter in the rear and a narrower tire on a narrower rim were the hot setup. Object being that the wider tire would aid in traction and the front was meant for precise steering control. Here is an effort I did back in 2000 that toyed with the concept.

thumbnail_DadsBikes-1.jpg

But as you can see visually although the moto has different looking tire profiles they are very close to the same in overall diameter due to their tire aspect ratio's, whereas on the bicycle there is a more notable heighth differential. That bike was a pig to ride uphill in the days before bike parks and shuttling so it just ended up being a concept thing.

In the mid 2000's after 29" wheels were becoming more accepted and more rims and tires made available the 650b wheels started to show up making for the in between size and gained popularity pretty quickly, especially with the FS crowd and those that didn't like the idea of the 29" wheel. So more tires and rims were developed over the next 5 years for that market segment.

Along about this time ever widening tires leading up to Fat Bike 4" and beyond started showing up. Some even started using 4" tires in the front of their bikes with 29 or 27.5" wheels in the rear. The one thing that having that wide 4" tire brought out was that it needed a wide rim to accommodate it although up til then rim width's for 1.75-2.4 tires were all pretty much the same maxing out at inner width's of 25mm or so.

In 2011 Surly came out with their 3" Knard tire and they made a wide inner 40mm rim for it as seen here:

IMG_0779.PNG

The end result of this was a whole new wheel diameter and the ability to run, especially in tubeless mode, lower in the teens psi than you could in a conventional high 20's with a 29" wheel and i25 rim. This enhanced traction and small bump compliance but also meant that you had to get a whole new bike because the diameter went up to around 30"es. It created the + movement that a few years later spawned the 27.5+ system that ended up becoming more popular as it was more within the realm of standard 29" geometry, and in fact came about due to that factor as it was meant for retrofitting wider tires on wider rims into existing 29"er frames.

My personal first grasp of the use of wider rims came about sort of by accident. I bought a CL single speed 29"er to send to my son down in the Bay Area that had a very nice wheelset made up of Phil Wood hubs and Kris Holm i35 rims. No way I was sending those down there to get stolen so I put another set I had on and sent the bike along. They came with some 2.2 tires on them and I put those on the wheels I sent and had the wheelset hanging around for a bit and one day I decided to put some tires on and install them on my Townie. I pumped them up to my usual 30psi and rode around and they felt pretty harsh so I started letting out bits of air. I did this a number of times until they started to squirm and when I checked the psi both front and rear were at around 10psi. I pumped them up to 15psi and that is where I ran them ever since. Great traction and small bump compliance were the most compelling features. But using only 2.3 tires which made me wonder if rim width didn't have as much to do with the ability to run low psi as tire width.

IMG_4340.JPG

OK, to finally get to running different size wheels and sorry for the lead up but I feel it is important in how it has come about that for the last few years I have been using an i35 650b rim with a 2.8 tire on the rear of my mtb and an i35 700c rim with a 2.3 tire on the front. Like this:

0-1.jpeg

Certainly the moto influence was a factor in my decision to go this route but also the fact that with the 2.3/2.8 tires, even on different rim sizes, are very close to the same diameter, enough so that they don't effect the geo of my bike so it handles as it always has even after adding the weight of the conversion. But the biggest factor is the ability to run 15psi in the front and rear. I found out that I don't like wide tires at low psi in the front, although it is very popular, because it made the steering seem grabby and imprecise. Mostly because I am so used to a narrower tire having used them for 30+ years I suppose but I do like the precision, small bump compliance and traction. The narrower tire on a wider rim squares off the tire profile also which seems to work just fine. But the wider rounder profile, as it is on the same rim width, rear tire is a traction monster and sucks up roots and rocks along the way such that I find no need for rear suspension. Tubeless is also a huge part of this equation also.

I find it funny in a way that it is becoming a "trend" but I do think it works, at least it does for my purposes.

As an aside on my Road eBike I tried the Road plus and I didn't really like it as I felt too much squirm due to the higher profile of the tire compared to my 40c 700c tires at the same psi, which I also tend to run lower than normal at 35psi so I went back to a 700c.

IMG_4872.JPG
 
Tires, what tires...I dont see any tires in that picture;)

The photographer clearly lost focus as the bike and tires are hardly in the frame. Who can blame him?

Interesting thought that Surly did produce a staggered tire model at that time. I truly believe it will not just be a fad on ebikes because I think the performance benefits proven on motorcycles will prove to be compelling on many ebikes as well. Bike designers tend to be stuck in "tradition" mindsets so they'll have to let their egos down a bit to adopt something proven in motor sports.

Cosmetically staggered tires look pretty cool, but it's the performance results that will make it happen.
 
At Interbike this year I noticed that Kenda was releasing new sizes of the Kwick model tire. The catalog had listed widths in both 27.5 / 650B and 29 at 2.0 / 2.2 / 2.4 / 2.6 / 2.8 and I believe 3.0 as well. I think they could have increased that incremental increase a bit I like the idea that this would allow any serious commuter to dial in handling and ride quality of their bike with these tires. The rep at Interbike actually said they had staggering options in mind when they decided to do all these widths in the different diameters so this is not going to just be a passing fad. I was able to get sames of the 2.4s in both 27.5 and 29 and have been running them on my ebike and they are fantastic. I do with the bean counters at the tire companies would allow the engineering teams to increase the tread depths another 1-2mm for tire life but I understand that bean counters need to feel they are contributing is some way. In my opinion there is no reason a street / urban bike tire should last 10,000 miles but I'm sure the bean counters would have me fired if I worked for a tire company and said that publicly.

I hope to see Schwable do something like this soon with the Moto X model and Pirelli should do it as well when the release the Cycle-e (only found on the Stromer ST5 currently). Make them durable like DOT moped tires - they should be like 2000grams because ebikes don't need 400gram tires that get punctures every time you ride in dry climates (we have goat head thorns that literally blow on sidewalks here in Denver and I hate thin tires - I have hit patches of these thorns produce over 20 punctures in seconds and sealants struggle to seal that many at one time).
 
It seems unnecessary to me on a street e bike. Don't see the advantages. You won't be able to rotate the tires either. I always do this on my bikes because the rear wears about twice as fast as the front. I rotate them when the wear gets to a certain point, and when they're both worn out I replace them as a set.
 
The reasons why a M/C might use different sized rubber has no bearing on bycicle.
 
It seems unnecessary to me on a street e bike. Don't see the advantages. You won't be able to rotate the tires either. I always do this on my bikes because the rear wears about twice as fast as the front. I rotate them when the wear gets to a certain point, and when they're both worn out I replace them as a set.

Given the variable infrastructure of urban riding I think a larger diameter front tire can provide the same improved attack angle as it does on mtn ebikes. It also typically raise the front of the bike just slightly which can improve visibility (no reason to focus so much on being aerodynamic when the top priority should be safety in the urban environment).

As for rotating bike tires I would not think the value of time vs any savings of benefit it would provide would be justified. I have never heard of anyone rotating tires on a bike because you must unmount & mount each tire because the rims just can't be swapped like on most cars. Are you sure you have thought this through?
 
The reasons why a M/C might use different sized rubber has no bearing on bycicle.

The are both two wheeled so I have no clue how you can just conclude that. I just heard that the women's world mtn bike champion may be ridding staggered tires this season. If the pros start doing it then it must be providing some benefits in some races. On ebikes it could make more sense given the increased power that is usually put to the rear tire just like on motorcycles.

As I pointed out in my initial post I think people cling to tradition so it may take time for riders to accept that this may actually have benefits.
 
The reasons why a M/C might use different sized rubber has no bearing on bycicle.

For on road use I would agree, but for mtb use I have found it to work within the parameters as I described in my post above and don't anticipate going back any time soon, if ever.
 
For on road use I would agree, but for mtb use I have found it to work within the parameters as I described in my post above and don't anticipate going back any time soon, if ever.

Keep in mind it's not only off-road motorcycles that utilize staggered tires - a significant % of all motorcycles utilize this configuration...even road race motorcycles. If the dynamics perform a bit better on your mtn bike maybe that is also true for urban ebike riding. At best and performance advantage on urban ebikes will not be significant but it could be driven by cosmetics as well.
 
Throughout mtb history there have been instances of using different diameter wheels on the front and the rear. 20/26, 24/26 were done in the 80's and early 90's. After 29" wheels debuted in '99 they were used in conjunction with 26" wheels also and in fact Trek even made a version. All these were set up with the larger diameter wheel in the front and the smaller in the rear. Also due to the fact that there wasn't a big variety of rim widths and tire widths there was a pretty good discrepancy in that the front was higher than the rear which had a negative effect on the geometry unless the bike was designed around the concept. Overall it didn't really catch the public interest.

As noted motorcycles, especially off road types, have used different wheel sizes for years. But primarily so that a fatter tire running on a wider rim of lesser diameter in the rear and a narrower tire on a narrower rim were the hot setup. Object being that the wider tire would aid in traction and the front was meant for precise steering control. Here is an effort I did back in 2000 that toyed with the concept.

View attachment 28800

But as you can see visually although the moto has different looking tire profiles they are very close to the same in overall diameter due to their tire aspect ratio's, whereas on the bicycle there is a more notable heighth differential. That bike was a pig to ride uphill in the days before bike parks and shuttling so it just ended up being a concept thing.

In the mid 2000's after 29" wheels were becoming more accepted and more rims and tires made available the 650b wheels started to show up making for the in between size and gained popularity pretty quickly, especially with the FS crowd and those that didn't like the idea of the 29" wheel. So more tires and rims were developed over the next 5 years for that market segment.

Along about this time ever widening tires leading up to Fat Bike 4" and beyond started showing up. Some even started using 4" tires in the front of their bikes with 29 or 27.5" wheels in the rear. The one thing that having that wide 4" tire brought out was that it needed a wide rim to accommodate it although up til then rim width's for 1.75-2.4 tires were all pretty much the same maxing out at inner width's of 25mm or so.

In 2011 Surly came out with their 3" Knard tire and they made a wide inner 40mm rim for it as seen here:

View attachment 28802

The end result of this was a whole new wheel diameter and the ability to run, especially in tubeless mode, lower in the teens psi than you could in a conventional high 20's with a 29" wheel and i25 rim. This enhanced traction and small bump compliance but also meant that you had to get a whole new bike because the diameter went up to around 30"es. It created the + movement that a few years later spawned the 27.5+ system that ended up becoming more popular as it was more within the realm of standard 29" geometry, and in fact came about due to that factor as it was meant for retrofitting wider tires on wider rims into existing 29"er frames.

My personal first grasp of the use of wider rims came about sort of by accident. I bought a CL single speed 29"er to send to my son down in the Bay Area that had a very nice wheelset made up of Phil Wood hubs and Kris Holm i35 rims. No way I was sending those down there to get stolen so I put another set I had on and sent the bike along. They came with some 2.2 tires on them and I put those on the wheels I sent and had the wheelset hanging around for a bit and one day I decided to put some tires on and install them on my Townie. I pumped them up to my usual 30psi and rode around and they felt pretty harsh so I started letting out bits of air. I did this a number of times until they started to squirm and when I checked the psi both front and rear were at around 10psi. I pumped them up to 15psi and that is where I ran them ever since. Great traction and small bump compliance were the most compelling features. But using only 2.3 tires which made me wonder if rim width didn't have as much to do with the ability to run low psi as tire width.

View attachment 28803

OK, to finally get to running different size wheels and sorry for the lead up but I feel it is important in how it has come about that for the last few years I have been using an i35 650b rim with a 2.8 tire on the rear of my mtb and an i35 700c rim with a 2.3 tire on the front. Like this:

View attachment 28804

Certainly the moto influence was a factor in my decision to go this route but also the fact that with the 2.3/2.8 tires, even on different rim sizes, are very close to the same diameter, enough so that they don't effect the geo of my bike so it handles as it always has even after adding the weight of the conversion. But the biggest factor is the ability to run 15psi in the front and rear. I found out that I don't like wide tires at low psi in the front, although it is very popular, because it made the steering seem grabby and imprecise. Mostly because I am so used to a narrower tire having used them for 30+ years I suppose but I do like the precision, small bump compliance and traction. The narrower tire on a wider rim squares off the tire profile also which seems to work just fine. But the wider rounder profile, as it is on the same rim width, rear tire is a traction monster and sucks up roots and rocks along the way such that I find no need for rear suspension. Tubeless is also a huge part of this equation also.

I find it funny in a way that it is becoming a "trend" but I do think it works, at least it does for my purposes.

As an aside on my Road eBike I tried the Road plus and I didn't really like it as I felt too much squirm due to the higher profile of the tire compared to my 40c 700c tires at the same psi, which I also tend to run lower than normal at 35psi so I went back to a 700c.

View attachment 28805
Very nice right up but there is no such word as "heighth"... There is width and height, but no "heighth". :)
 
I think the part you are missing is that although the rim diameter of the front wheel on moto’s is larger than the rear for both road and off road models the tire aspect ratios are such that they end up being the same, er, height.

D438E45F-1DC9-4C2D-A58B-0E6322A06D36.jpeg

Head angle and fork rake angle can be compromised slightly by using a larger diameter front wheel in a bike not designed specifically for that as I mentioned. That is why the early attempts at what were known actually as “Mullet” bikes bitd didn’t work that well. Not bad for stability at speed but could experience wheel flop at lower speeds.
 
I think the part you are missing is that although the rim diameter of the front wheel on moto’s is larger than the rear for both road and off road models the tire aspect ratios are such that they end up being the same, er, height.

View attachment 28905

Head angle and fork rake angle can be compromised slightly by using a larger diameter front wheel in a bike not designed specifically for that as I mentioned. That is why the early attempts at what were known actually as “Mullet” bikes bitd didn’t work that well. Not bad for stability at speed but could experience wheel flop at lower speeds.

I did some calculations of having say a 27.5 / 650B rim with a 27.5 x 2.4 tire on the rear and a 29 rim with a 2.0 tire on the front and the change in head angle / fork rake was very negligible. I hardly think any urban commute rider would ever notice - my bike is set up this way and it's a hard tail with rigid carbon forks so the angle does not change like it would with a suspension.

I think a lot of people are blowing smoke if they think small changes in the rolling diameter of the tires is going to have draconian changes - we are talking very subtle changes in geometry that could be slightly better or maybe slightly worse handling geometry but the fact that staggered tires have become defacto on motorcycles must mean they did work. I think the 29 front with the carbon fork I have really improved the feel of the front end of the bike I commute on. I certain didn't notice anything negative.
 
Just checked the calculations and the 29 x 2.0 tire would raise the front axle less than .4". You could run a 27.5 x 2.8 rear to equalized the rolling diameters but I hardly think any casual to very good rider could notice the impact of that .4" rise under any kind of blind test. I'm sure some pro riders may have the sensitivity but even that is questionable.
 
Please read this again

"Head angle and fork rake angle can be compromised slightly by using a larger diameter front wheel in a bike not designed specifically for that as I mentioned. That is why the early attempts at what were known actually as “Mullet” bikes bitd didn’t work that well. Not bad for stability at speed but could experience wheel flop at lower speeds."

By this I meant using a 29" diameter wheel with a 26" wheel that I referenced in my first post.

Overall we are both saying the same thing that bikes with similarly sized diameter wheels have no il effect on handling. That is why I like my 2.3 700c front end and 2.8 650b rear end as I noted in my first posting that are within mm's of the same diameter, like the moto in the jpeg I provided. However my reason for doing so is that I also use a wider inner rim width in the equation to achieve the tire aspect ratio I desire and the ability to run low psi that enhances small bump absorption and traction on both ends but with dis-similar characteristics in that the front is narrower and the rear is wider.



.
 
Please read this again

"Head angle and fork rake angle can be compromised slightly by using a larger diameter front wheel in a bike not designed specifically for that as I mentioned. That is why the early attempts at what were known actually as “Mullet” bikes bitd didn’t work that well. Not bad for stability at speed but could experience wheel flop at lower speeds."

By this I meant using a 29" diameter wheel with a 26" wheel that I referenced in my first post.

Overall we are both saying the same thing that bikes with similarly sized diameter wheels have no il effect on handling. That is why I like my 2.3 700c front end and 2.8 650b rear end as I noted in my first posting that are within mm's of the same diameter, like the moto in the jpeg I provided. However my reason for doing so is that I also use a wider inner rim width in the equation to achieve the tire aspect ratio I desire and the ability to run low psi that enhances small bump absorption and traction on both ends but with dis-similar characteristics in that the front is narrower and the rear is wider.


OK....I think your set-up is very much like what I think will become more common place on urban commute bikes (2.3 700C/29 front with a 2.8 650B/27.5 rear). I'm currently running 2.4s front and rear but they were samples sent to me - so my front does have a slightly larger rolling diameter.

I'm not sure if I can really feel a handling difference from the 650b/27.5 x 2.4s I was running front and back before but I like the cosmetic look of the staggered tires (although I want the wider tire as you have on my rear once I settle in to ride staggered long term). I may end up with a 2.4 rear and a 2.0 front just to keep the rolling resistance a bit lower on my current bike but I'm making a more powerful ebike soon that I'll definately want something in the 2.6-3.0 range on the rear (keeping the width delta close to .5" keeps the rolling diameters pretty close to equal).
 
The reasons why a M/C might use different sized rubber has no bearing on bycicle.

Sort of. The reason the electric mountain bike makers are saying they are doing it is greater traction in the rear when climbing, and more precision up front than if they ran a matching 2.75+ tire. Same concept for a dirt bike, although to a much lesser degree.
 
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