If you were to build a long range...

[Ready]

I'm interested in a long range ebike that I can pedal naturally. Any suggestions on a efficient mid drive that's not going to suck battery power? I'm fairly fit and ride a regular bike as well as 2 other ebikes so I'm willing to sweat. I want to avoid carrying giant batteries. If I can build it on a road bike or gravel bike, that would be best. The goal is <40lbs and >100 mile range.

Thanks.

 

[EBRQuest]

It seems like Watt Wagon's Archon X-1 upgrade to the Bafang gives as natural and efficient a power application as possible. Strapping that motor on a carbon frame with a 21 Ah battery might get you 100 miles with PAS-1. I'm reading accounts of people besting 65+ miles on PAS-2 with heavy rigs. I think the system weighs around 12-15 pounds, so that would mean you need a carbon or aluminum, or Reynolds steel ultralight frame, to strap it to (under 25 lb.)..

Bafang Ultra with Archon X1 controller

Please read about the Archon X1 controller here. Limited set of motors available June 2020, subject to manufacturer production capabilities. We are expecting to ramp up our production and will offer an unparalleled motor you can simply swap out. You can pick from one of the 3 options. All...

wattwagons.com

This is the best motor you can buy right now (to my understanding) to get high level PAS refinement without buying a whole platform. The torque is high on this motor, but all other things being equal, that will help you with range in the end. Unless we are talking winding or pole differences, increased winding diameter increases the efficiency of a motor, as well as inertia of the stator. Every gear in a transmission results in power loss. If you have high torque at the spindle, you'll have to use fewer amp hours of current flow to achieve similar torque assists for uphills and wind resistance. This is assuming you have a good controller, and low bearing friction. My $0.02..

 

[Ready]

It seems like Watt Wagon's Archon X-1 upgrade to the Bafang gives as natural and efficient a power application as possible. Strapping that motor on a carbon frame with a 21 Ah battery might get you 100 miles with PAS-1. I'm reading accounts of people besting 65+ miles on PAS-2 with heavy rigs. I think the system weighs around 12-15 pounds, so that would mean you need a carbon or aluminum, or Reynolds steel ultralight frame, to strap it to (under 25 lb.)..

Bafang Ultra with Archon X1 controller

Please read about the Archon X1 controller here. Limited set of motors available June 2020, subject to manufacturer production capabilities. We are expecting to ramp up our production and will offer an unparalleled motor you can simply swap out. You can pick from one of the 3 options. All...

wattwagons.com

This is the best motor you can buy right now (to my understanding) to get high level PAS refinement without buying a whole platform. The torque is high on this motor, but all other things being equal, that will help you with range in the end. Unless we are talking winding or pole differences, increased winding diameter increases the efficiency of a motor, as well as inertia of the stator. Every gear in a transmission results in power loss. If you have high torque at the spindle, you'll have to use fewer amp hours of current flow to achieve similar torque assists for uphills and wind resistance. This is assuming you have a good controller, and low bearing friction. My $0.02..

21ah battery... that's got to be heavy! If the Bafang is programmed to run at low power, can it run it efficiently? I don't need all that power, but if it's natural, that's a big plus. Looking at bikes like Specialize turbo creo, it's a tiny 250w motor with 320wh battery, but can get 80 miles. Can the Bafang be programmed to run at those low powers to increase range?

 

[E-Wheels]

I'm interested in a long range ebike that I can pedal naturally. Any suggestions on a efficient mid drive that's not going to suck battery power? I'm fairly fit and ride a regular bike as well as 2 other ebikes so I'm willing to sweat. I want to avoid carrying giant batteries. If I can build it on a road bike or gravel bike, that would be best. The goal is <40lbs and >100 mile range.

Thanks.

Maybe something from the BMC Alepnchallenge series

E-Bike AMP - Models

us-en.bmc-switzerland.com

 

[EBRQuest]

21ah battery... that's got to be heavy! If the Bafang is programmed to run at low power, can it run it efficiently? I don't need all that power, but if it's natural, that's a big plus. Looking at bikes like Specialize turbo creo, it's a tiny 250w motor with 320wh battery, but can get 80 miles. Can the Bafang be programmed to run at those low powers to increase range?

Good question. I know it's overpowered for what you want. There's probably a more finessed solution here. I'm just learning myself, so not an expert. However, I wanted to forward a great solution I came upon that others helped me find. Yes, the X-1 controller is very efficient and Pushkar is adding firmware updates to refine it all the time. Maybe ask him?

Keep in mind that bikes like the Turbo Creo are adding a tiny breath of assist for that range. The Ultra will give you a smooth and solid push of an assist for that range. Just depends on what you are aiming for.. I'm sure there's an app out there somewhere to calculate avg. force (N) of assist over 'x' distance from 'y' motor and 'z' battery cells, estimating losses.

 

[Ready]

Maybe something from the BMC Alepnchallenge series

E-Bike AMP - Models

us-en.bmc-switzerland.com

I'm thinking of a build. If I were to buy one, I think I'd go with Specialized Turbo Creo SL or Trek Domane+ HP. Both have great range.

 

[Ready]

Good question. I know it's overpowered for what you want. There's probably a more finessed solution here. I'm just learning myself, so not an expert. However, I wanted to forward a great solution I came upon that others helped me find. Yes, the X-1 controller is very efficient and Pushkar is adding firmware updates to refine it all the time. Maybe ask him?

Keep in mind that bikes like the Turbo Creo are adding a tiny breath of assist for that range. The Ultra will give you a smooth and solid push of an assist for that range. Just depends on what you are aiming for.. I'm sure there's an app out there somewhere to calculate avg. force (N) of assist over 'x' distance from 'y' motor and 'z' battery cells, estimating losses.

Thank you. I guess it boils down to how efficient Bafang mid drives really are. There actually aren't too many options for "natural" riding.

 

[harryS]

The Bafang BBS02 allows the pedals to freewheel when the motor isn't turning. All you get then is whatever drag is in the cassette or freewheel when coasting.

The pedals also turn easily when the motor is off, so if you pedal w/o power, most of it goes toward driving the wheel, but there's a tiny bit needed to overcome the clutch/gearing that lets the motor drive the crank.

To gauge that friction, normal pedals will spin for up to a minute if given a good push when there is no chain. The pedals in a BBS02 drive spin for about 10 seconds with no chain.

I've pedalled 25 miles on a BBS02 w/o power. I probably never rode the bike that far prior to installing the motor.

 

[Ready]

It looks like besides the M series, non of the Bafang motors have a torque sensor. Maybe the tech isn't there yet.

 

[tomjasz]

The goal is <40lbs and >100 mile range.

That's a pretty lofty goal but possible with a BBS02B/BBS01B and a significant level of user input.

 

[Ready]

That's a pretty lofty goal but possible with a BBS02B/BBS01B and a significant level of user input.

Thomas, I haven't ridden these two so I can't comment. I've tried the HD and it just didn't feel quite "natural". Can it be tweaked to work without a torque sensor?

I can ride a Lectric XP (500w hub motor with 10.4ah) battery 45 miles on mix of flat and hills. I imagine a bike with narrower tires better geometry should carry me 100 miles. I don't mind pedaling at all. I ride my road bike regularly, but there are places I want to explore...

 

[tomjasz]

I've tried the HD and it just didn't feel quite "natural".

BBS02B and BBS01B motors have a lower cadence and many feel more natural.

 

[J.R.]

Thomas, I haven't ridden these two so I can't comment. I've tried the HD and it just didn't feel quite "natural". Can it be tweaked to work without a torque sensor?

I can ride a Lectric XP (500w hub motor with 10.4ah) battery 45 miles on mix of flat and hills. I imagine a bike with narrower tires better geometry should carry me 100 miles. I don't mind pedaling at all. I ride my road bike regularly, but there are places I want to explore...

I've done 58 miles with a Dapu 350 watt geared hub drive with TMM4 torque sensor and a 36 volt, 11.6 amp hour battery (417wh). Had I put more effort in I believe I could hit 75 miles, as I've topped 50 miles many times with greater than 20% left in the tank. If I want miles with less effort I take a spare pack.

Given your willingness to put in the effort, I'd suggest a very lightweight 250 to 350 watt geared hub with torque sensor. I can't say where such a system can be had for DIY though. Thomas might know.

 

[Ready]

Given your willingness to put in the effort, I'd suggest a very lightweight 250 to 350 watt geared hub with torque sensor. I can't say where such a system can be had for DIY though. Thomas might know.

J.R. 250W should be enough. How was your Dapu in terms of feel when you pedal?

 

[J.R.]

It's a Dapu on a BH bike. It's a very natural feel with the torque sensor. I don't have a throttle on the bike. Same sensor as some of the Stromer bikes have been equipped with. I think 250 watts would work too. There are many in Europe.

 

[Iridebikez]

I don't mind pedaling at all. I ride my road bike regularly, but there are places I want to explore...

That's what I'm talking about. I'm interested to see what sort of solution or build you come up with. Good luck!

 

[Ready]

It's a Dapu on a BH bike. It's a very natural feel with the torque sensor. I don't have a throttle on the bike. Same sensor as some of the Stromer bikes have been equipped with. I think 250 watts would work too. There are many in Europe.

I see. I found a Dapu hub kit, but it didn't mention anything about a torque sensor...

 

[tomjasz]

I see. I found a Dapu hub kit, but it didn't mention anything about a torque sensor...

A hub motor is not the source of PAS or torque sensing. With a hub motor, we need a bottom bracket torque sensor.

Sempu_140

Sempu Torque Sensing Bottom Bracket for Fatbikes with 84mm wide BB's. Advanced PAS Kit Info Page

www.ebikes.ca

 

[J.R.]

I see. I found a Dapu hub kit, but it didn't mention anything about a torque sensor...

Thomas is right. The TMM4 torque sensor requires a dedicated frame, designed to accept the sensor. A bottom bracket sensor can be installed in most any frame.

 

[Ready]

Thanks @Thomas Jaszewski and @J.R. I wasn't aware you can add a torque sensor to a hub drive. Does it work as well as a mid drive?