Hypotheticals - would you replace your R&M with another R&M??

[sammcneill]

So I was riding my SuperCharger2 home in the rain tonight and drivers were crazy - narrowly avoided a few near crashes.

It got me thinking, if my R&M was stolen / destroyed in an accident or for some other reason no longer available to me, would I replace it?

So a couple of questions to spark some discussion:

1. Would you replace your R&M with another R&M?
2. If so, would you get the same model or a different model R&M?
3. If not, what sort of bike / eBike would you replace it with?

I’ve got my own ideas but will see how the thread kicks off first!

Cheers

Sam

 

[Bill G]

I have had a Nevo3 for a year and a half. I have had no problems with the exception of a small IGH problem, easily fixed. The bike (1100 ah) has more range than my butt (I'm 79), but with front suspension, Kinekt seat post, and Brooks saddle, I find the bike very comfortable. And at my age, step-thru is a must. So I'd definitely buy another R&M (Nevo). What would get me to change? Bike with all the same advantages but lighter. It's a bear getting it up stairs with a 180 degree turn. But I've even learned to dance with it in walk mode (or get my wife to help get it to the second floor).

 

[dblhelix]

2018 dual batt Charger NuVinci (now Enviolo) HS -- replaced with:

2019 dual batt Nevo GX Rohloff HS -- replaced with

2022 dual batt Load60 Touring w/ LinkGlide HS

My application is touring -- all types of terrain, elevation etc. The first replacement was prompted by Enviolo -> Rohloff to increase range.

I really had to pause when it came to switching back to chain, but I had two incidents in which the Rohloff E14 left me locked into inconvenient gears. The first time was in an extremely remote location, requiring an extremely expensive ride back to civilization. The second time was about 6 miles outside of Washington, DC and hoo, boy, pushing the bike to a shop was a horrible experience.

I would have stayed with Rohloff if I'd been able to switch to mechanical shifting OR
(even better) if customers were permitted to purchase the diagnostic kit of replacement cables used by the E14 service techs. We can all replace cable segments systematically -- it's not difficult. But, no. For me, there is insufficient service support to justify the risk of being stranded again in a remote area. I consider it a safety issue, or alternatively, a real limitation imposed by the "urban" marketing preference by ebike manufacturers.

The R&Ms are presented as robust, variable-terrain vehicles. But with that comes increased risk of cable damage -- and on my bike, the E14 shifter unit itself was not far off the ground. Another negative was the potential replacement cost of the shifter unit out-of-warranty, not that you're able to purchase it yourself.

The Load60 decision was based on trying out a more rugged R&M model w/ suspension and a cargo box to replace panniers etc. This is my favorite R&M, by far. However, the LinkGlide technology
(chains/cassettes to last up to 3x longer) is probably a bit overhyped. I was disappointed by hard- to-find/expensive cassette replacement at 4600 miles. Shimano is STILL claiming supply chain probs. On the flip side, consumables have a shorter lifetime on cargo bikes, so perhaps the 4600 miles is a real achievement -- I can't say. I also go through brake pads quickly.

What these three bikes have in common is a dual-battery system, a MUST, IMO. At one time, R&M had a lock on this type of bike -- dual battery, robust frame, drivetrain options. This kept me tethered to R&M.

What is my big R&M tu;rn-off? The penny-wise, pound-foolish nonsense. Within 90 days, the springs that hold the Load kickstand in place snapped (the hooked ends). So unpleasant and inconvenient. One replacement spring from R&M is $20. I found 2 for $5 at the hardware store (application: door springs) that thus far have held up longer.

What about the next bike? Let me mention that I have owned a Tern Vektron since 2017 when the model was first introduced. It's a folding frame and primarily used for commuting on regional rail, stashing on a boat etc. I have also taken it on some challenging rides for this type of bike. It takes everything I throw at it, and then some. Case in point: I recently acquired a sailboat and used the Vektron to transport equipment using a Burley Travoy. I was in the boat cabin and my heart dropped into my stomach as I heard a gust of wind, followed by a clunk/splash. The Vektron was gone ... I ran down the dock to land to get long boat hooks and help. I'd say it was fully submerged about ten minutes in about 9-12 ft of water. Luckily an empty pannier filled with air kept the bike "butt up," and we were able to get our hooks on the frame to pull it up/out of the Chesapeake Bay waters.

Ten minutes later I was riding the bike in Turbo. The electronics were erratic for about a week but fine now. I don't deserve this bike. No frame damage due to boat hooks. And it was hoist-able -- imagine trying to pull out a heavier e-bike. This bike has taken all kinds of punishment! I did lose a Bosch charger and retired the battery. Tern has also been very responsive over the lifetime of the bike and doesn't have the "go away, dealer only" attitude.

I have enjoyed my R&Ms, but it's fair to say that they don't command "brand loyalty" from me. I will be very open-minded next time, esp since sailing now competes for recreational $. Consider how far a company like Tern has come in terms of features: there's a Rohloff, a dual-batt, a HS. I also appreciate the weight savings w/ a bike like Tern.

OTOH, there's nothing to say that I won't own another R&M model in the future. We'll see!

 

[sammcneill]

That's an awesome story @dblhelix ! Thanks for sharing.

Like you, I'm super annoyed when premium products skimp on the small components. I bought a Wahook Kickr Bike for indoor training and whilst the bike is amazing the quick release for the seat and handlebars are cheap and nasty, don't grip well and I've snapped three QR skewers - grrh.

Long distance touring on the Load is such a cool concept - I've not ridden one before, but can see how it makes a bunch of things simpler having that much storage capacity, but you really do need it to be reliable. Thanks for the additional info on the challenges of the e14 shifting on the Rohloff - I've heard this before, but didn't pick up on the connection with the electronic shifting being the challenge - I thought it was Rohloff hubs in general (which is why i've been super pleased with performance of my Rohloff and manual shifting on my gravel bike....no complaints at all!)

My eBike journey has been:

1. R&M Supercharger 2 (enviolo and belt drive)
   1. Shared riding with my wife and I
2. Specialized Turbo Levo Comp Allow
   1. eMTB for me - very different riding style, but some of the power/shifting is very different (better?) than the SC2
3. R&M MultiCharter Mixte (Enviolo and belt drive)
   1. Step through eBike for my wife to ride

Would I get another R&M? Quite possibly as a replacement as I do see my SC2 has a complete vehicle replacement - I rarely drive my car on single person trips anymore and the bike has largely been bulletproof mechanically (my complaint is the challenge around the enviolo hub for removing rear wheel - my Rohloff on Gravelbike is a dream by comparison).

I do consider change is as good as a holiday (after 6yrs at Microsoft using Windows 11, I've changed to MacOS for my new role simply because I like a change) so I'd seriously explore if there is a true vehicle replacement eBike out there if/when I replace my SC2, but I don't know what that would be right now.

Cheers
Sam

 

[peterh_nz]

I really had to pause when it came to switching back to chain, but I had two incidents in which the Rohloff E14 left me locked into inconvenient gears. The first time was in an extremely remote location, requiring an extremely expensive ride back to civilization. The second time was about 6 miles outside of Washington, DC and hoo, boy, pushing the bike to a shop was a horrible experience.

I'd be interested to know the actual cause of the two E14 shifter breakdowns.

I remember reading somewhere that, in the event of a shifter issue, one can manually change an E14's gear to a usable one to be able to "limp" back to base.

Cheers

 

[rich c]

I never think of replacing my Haibikes. They never leave my sight when I'm out, so theft is not a big issue. I have 8,700 miles during 7 years on one of them and it rides like the day I took it from the shop. Still on original battery too. I figure I'll just replace parts until I don't ride anymore.

 

[dblhelix]

I'd be interested to know the actual cause of the two E14 shifter breakdowns.

I remember reading somewhere that, in the event of a shifter issue, one can manually change an E14's gear to a usable one to be able to "limp" back to base.

Cheers)

You can change the gear to a usable one by taking the wheel off, the shifter off + have an 8mm wrench on hand, IIRC. I remember setting the gear to 14 when I replaced the shifter.

First incident. I think the shifter itself was fine but the cable coming of the shifter was compromised in rough terrain. It doesn't unplug; there's a strain relief boot which separated from the unit as I recall. Replacing the entire unit (shifter with first segment of cable) solved the issue.

Second incident took place after motor was replaced in a Trek shop. Can't tell you the exact issue as I moved onto the Load60 at this point. Probably a cable issue upon putting everything back together, but the point remains the same -- not a lot of service options. Trek shops are familiar with Bosch but not E14/Rohloff integration.

From conversations with service techs, I've learned that troubleshooting amounts to swapping out the components systematically. The responsible party for warranty issues could be either Rohloff or Bosch, depending on the specific segment.

 

[peterh_nz]

You can change the gear to a usable one by taking the wheel off, the shifter off + have an 8mm wrench on hand, IIRC. I remember setting the gear to 14 when I replaced the shifter.

First incident. I think the shifter itself was fine but the cable coming of the shifter was compromised in rough terrain. It doesn't unplug; there's a strain relief boot which separated from the unit as I recall. Replacing the entire unit (shifter with first segment of cable) solved the issue.

Second incident took place after motor was replaced in a Trek shop. Can't tell you the exact issue as I moved onto the Load60 at this point. Probably a cable issue upon putting everything back together, but the point remains the same -- not a lot of service options. Trek shops are familiar with Bosch but not E14/Rohloff integration.

From conversations with service techs, I've learned that troubleshooting amounts to swapping out the components systematically. The responsible party for warranty issues could be either Rohloff or Bosch, depending on the specific segment.

Thanks for your reply.

So only the first incident occurred in the field. Was the cable from the shifter broken or did the conductor fracture internally, within the insulator?

I ask the above to understand a potential scenario that I could face and possible temporary fixes.

On my bike, an RM SC2, the sidestand offers good protection of both the cable and the shifter.

 

[Jay Kay]

I went from a 2019 Delite Vario to a 2020 Superdelite Mountain to get extra range. It was prompted because (I believe) of a software bug in the smartphone system that kept throwing an error associated with modding the motor (503 I think it was), hence diasabling it at random times. Bosch refused to acknowledge the problem and did not believe me that I had never modded the motor. Fortunately my LBS did believe me and swopped out my Delite for a Superdelite with me paying just the difference in cost. I already loved the convenience of a belt and the Fox suspension, and with the mountain model I also had to upgrade to Rohloff to retain the belt.

Now that I have moved back from Australia to New Zealand, I find myself riding less single track and more cycle path, and my Superdelite Mountain is not being used to its full potential. My next purchase will likely be another R&M, but a dual battery Homage with Rohloff so that I get the belt drive, wonderful gear ratios with the Rohloff to concur any hills, the dual battery to allow me to ride the distances on NZ's amazing long distance cycle trails, dual suspension for comfort (I will almost certainly upgrade to Fox post purchase unless R&M introduces the upgrade option) and the most sublime and plush riding experience that the Homage riding position provides.

When the time comes I will do some research and look at other brands to see how far they have come. It might not be a R&M, but as of today, it will be.

 

[sammcneill]

I went from a 2019 Delite Vario to a 2020 Superdelite Mountain to get extra range. It was prompted because (I believe) of a software bug in the smartphone system that kept throwing an error associated with modding the motor (503 I think it was), hence diasabling it at random times. Bosch refused to acknowledge the problem and did not believe me that I had never modded the motor. Fortunately my LBS did believe me and swopped out my Delite for a Superdelite with me paying just the difference in cost. I already loved the convenience of a belt and the Fox suspension, and with the mountain model I also had to upgrade to Rohloff to retain the belt.

Now that I have moved back from Australia to New Zealand, I find myself riding less single track and more cycle path, and my Superdelite Mountain is not being used to its full potential. My next purchase will likely be another R&M, but a dual battery Homage with Rohloff so that I get the belt drive, wonderful gear ratios with the Rohloff to concur any hills, the dual battery to allow me to ride the distances on NZ's amazing long distance cycle trails, dual suspension for comfort (I will almost certainly upgrade to Fox post purchase unless R&M introduces the upgrade option) and the most sublime and plush riding experience that the Homage riding position provides.

When the time comes I will do some research and look at other brands to see how far they have come. It might not be a R&M, but as of today, it will be.

@Jay Kay - are you based down dunedin way if I recall? Done the newish routes out to Port Chalmers? I hear good things ….

 

[Jay Kay]

Yes down in Dunedin. We have ridden the route most of the way on both sides of the harbour but with the 5km or so section near Port Chalmers still
missing but due for completion about now. It was very scenic indeed, and the completed off road circular ride will be around 45km with a 15 minute ferry ride half way connecting Portobello on the Peninsular with Port Chalmers. Fortuitously the Carey’s Bay Pub is also in the middle of the ride to make it very civilised. Definitely ride it on a calm sunny day if you are down here and I promise you you will want to ride it again.

 

[sammcneill]

Yes down in Dunedin. We have ridden the route most of the way on both sides of the harbour but with the 5km or so section near Port Chalmers still
missing but due for completion about now. It was very scenic indeed, and the completed off road circular ride will be around 45km with a 15 minute ferry ride half way connecting Portobello on the Peninsular with Port Chalmers. Fortuitously the Carey’s Bay Pub is also in the middle of the ride to make it very civilised. Definitely ride it on a calm sunny day if you are down here and I promise you you will want to ride it again.

Awesome! Miss 19yrs is in her third year at UoO and Miss 17yrs plans to go there next year for health sciences, so plenty of excuses to come down and ride my bike! I didn’t realise that there was a ferry involved - I’m very excited now!

 

[dblhelix]

Thanks for your reply.

So only the first incident occurred in the field. Was the cable from the shifter broken or did the conductor fracture internally, within the insulator?

I ask the above to understand a potential scenario that I could face and possible temporary fixes.

On my bike, an RM SC2, the sidestand offers good protection of both the cable and the shifter.

The outer insulation separated from the shifter at the strain relief boot, exposing a bundle of six wires. I believe one of these wires bent/broke while riding through a mess on an ungroomed trail. I immediately got a Nyon error code indicating the connection to E14 was lost.

Pure conjecture on my part, but I suspect that the initial separation was a result of human error -- somebody forgot to unplug at the connector and dropped the wheel. Few shops have E14 or Enviolo experience. Some techs with rear hub experience will look around automatically for disconnect points, but there's no guarantee.

Bear in mind that my system was in its first year OEM (Nevo 2019). I did compare with a 2022 Superdelite, which had the unit in a different position, away from the ground. Second, at the time, the primary Rohloff support was a single vendor notorious for non-responsiveness. Not a good look!

 

[PDL]

I’ve had multicharger Mixte since November and mostly love riding it. But I don’t think I’d buy another RM for a few reasons:

— It feels like a nice assembly of good parts, rather than truly innovative or particularly special. It’s an expensive bike, so I’d expect more thought going into it.

— there are few accessories, especially compared to a bike like the Tern GSD. As someone who wants the bike to adapt to me over time as my needs change, I’m disappointed. Also RM accessories are not always readily available like Tern ones are.

— the battery charging port cover design is unforgivably poor. Whoever allowed that piece of crap to be on such an expensive bike should be sent to a design forced labour camp for reeducation.

- the black on the pedals wore through in just a few weeks wearing rubber sole shoes. I rode a gazelle electric bike with black pedals for several years and this never happened. Poor.

— my personal experience with my dealer has been very disappointing. And follow up with RM was also disappointing, though I now have a bit more success with one of the customer service people who is helpful.

So I like the bike and it’s fun and enjoyable to ride, but just seems a bit overpriced for what it is and what you get.

Edit: Want to add an annoyance that need not have been there if RM had been thoughtful about things. While the Selle Royal seat that came standard on my multicharger was comfortable, I replaced it with a Selle Royal that is for e-bikes and has a sort of handle area in the back. This greatly facilitates parking and manoeuvring the bike and should have been standard as it is on my partner's much lighter Gazelle. Without it, it's incredibly difficult to move the heavy bike since it's long and the only part I can grab easily is the back rack. Basically, I have to stretch my arms from the front handlebars to the back rack while also applying force to pull it toward me. Since it's such a long bike, this isn't straight forward. With the seat handle, I can actually lift it up enough to move.

 

[AleksR]

I have supercharger2, three years now. No issues. The next bike would need to be lighter, R&M would be a strong contender if they made lighter bike.

 

[MinnBobber]

I would suggest that the R & M owners at least check out Stromer when they are looking at buying.
The Stromer ST5 and new (revolutionary? ) ST7 have some great designs and ultra premium components.
If you want a speed commuter with superb battery range, you should at least check out Stromer.

 

[CyclingDan]

I love my Superdelite, I’d get another for sure. It’s such a pleasure to ride, everything is so well thought out with top components (and a price to match). It does everything well but nothing perfect, and I’m in biking distance to three state and local parks with world class bike trails. I tried the SD but it’s not really made for anything more gnarly than a decent fire road, so I got a Pole Voima which is a trail monster for those MTB trails. Love them both, they complement each other beautifully, so yes I’d want to keep this combination.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Stromer ST5 and new (revolutionary? ) ST7 have some great designs and ultra premium components.

I would have never invested in an e-bike made of only proprietary components, and with the motor that only yields 52 Nm at 940 W of motor power (ST 7). A Direct Drive motor of an unknown brand in the era of mid-drives?

It is yet another Van Moof, only far more expensive.

 

[DiggyGun]

Both Mrs DG and I have R&M Nevo3 GT Vario GX bikes.

The belt drive and Enviolo hub makes them so easy to ride.

Mrs DGs is still stock, but I’ve changed a few bits on mine;
- Replacement pedals as I had started to wear down the moulded lugs on the VP- 538 pedals. Now using VPE-506 pedals.
- Replacement seat post as with the Thudbuster the saddle kept going nose up. Currently using the eeSilk+, but in the process of changing over to the Kinekt
- Ergon grips, changed to the bigger GP5
- Changed tyres from Schwalbe Johnny Watts to Marathon Plus MTB

Had a few issues along the way with squealing brakes and other noises, but have all been resolved by the LBS.

Would we get another R&M. Yes, but may look at a Homage for me because of the rear suspension.

DG…

 

[peterh_nz]

- Replacement seat post as with the Thudbuster the saddle kept going nose up. Currently using the eeSilk+, but in the process of changing over to the Kinekt
- Ergon grips, changed to the bigger GP5
- Changed tyres from Schwalbe Johnny Watts to Marathon Plus MTB

That's interesting.

You have made similar types of changes that I have on my Supercharger2, HS, Rohloff with off-road options:
- Softer elastomer in the seat stem.
- Changed the Ergon GP3 grips to GP5.
- Schwalbe Rock Razors front and back to Johnny Watts on rear.

The original off-road peddles are fine.

Haven't come across a bike that would better suits my needs and expectations. If I eventually wear the bike out I would get another.