Hydra v Trek Rail v Levo

[Acme]

Ive been seeing a lot of traditional Levi’s etc. and keep wondering to myself do I really need all the power of the Hydra. They seem happy they’re not terribly winded on those bikes are 10 pounds lighter. So I went down and rented a Trek Rail with a Bosch-625wh. for the day. A friend of mine and I switched off during the ride. you’re also to turbo levo is riding with us. they were experience riders and weighed 160 pounds. I am 185 and my friend is 200.

First off I would like to say I really like Levo and the Rail. Being 10 pounds lighter is really noticeable at times. Tricky trails with rocks and ruts where you have to really move the bike around is where these bikes shine. Lifting it over obstacle also great. These are excellent bikes the pedal sensitivity and assistance that feels just like you have someone helping you. Stuck on a steep hill? No problem just put your foot on the pedal and go. It’s not like the Hydra where it can take a little more than an eighth of a stroke before the assistance kicks in. These bikes would be perfect for me if I didn’t live on the side of a mountain. Unfortunately almost everywhere I ride there are climbs of over 15° and that seems to be where they exchange of light weight and lower power no longer has a payoff for me. I was riding mostly in EMTB mode. It’s work very well but when you had a sustained climb of more than 50 feet I was putting so much energy into the peddles that my legs really started to grow tired. My friend who is 15 pounds more than me had the same feeling. EMTB mode worked great until you want to just a little more power then you thought put into turbo will get it for you but there was no more to be had you were already maxed out. Contrast that with my hydra where Eco 2 is easily more powerful than the turbo on the Bosch or the Levo. A steep climb coming up, no problem, do I need to be in first gear? Not really, I can climb in third where I’m struggling to keep up in first on the Bosch.
Efficiency. The Levo’s had 700wh and the rail had 625wh. For the first part of the ride they both seemed to be maintaining charge better than the Hydra. My personal feeling is if you are in the lower power modes with the Bosch or the Levo they are more efficient than the Hydra. however when you need to put them into Turbo for steep climbs longer than 50ft. they gobble power easily as fast as the Hydra and they’re not giving near as much assistance.
I should note I did some testing on the Levo’s before we started the trail but they were mostly ridden by the 160 pound friends. Whether they were simply more fit or it was their light weight or the Brose 90nm (probably a combination) the difference in their speed and ability to climb compared to the Bosch was noticeable.
When we got back onto the hard pack to head home again the difference was noticeable. we weren’t slowed down by the hills and their assistance cut out at 20mph while the two Hydras just kept on Truckin. I don’t know if we needed to go that fast but we were able to.

Summary
If you are young and fit there’s no reason in the world you would need a Hydra over a refined bike like the levo or the Trek Rail. You might want one because you really wanna go fast but these bikes are fine. Parts availability is great, you can take it to your local bike shop for repairs. The local shop where are you purchase it well warranty them.
If you’re not as fit as a 30 year old and you have a lot of steep terrain, the Hydra is definitely a worthy candidate for your consideration.
if you don’t want to be constrained by the 20 mph cut off or have enough power to go more than 10mph up a grade then again the hydra is something you should look at.
For me, I am not going to be purchasing a Levo even though I do really like the feel, most places I ride are just to steep and I am not 30 anymore. Also I can rent one for $100 a day if I really want to push myself. i’ll be keeping my Hydra‘s because they are much more suited to what I need.
All my own opinion
Gary

 

[vincent]

Great write up!
And I think everything you said makes a lot of sense

I don’t love the heavier weight of the bafang bikes but agree that you don’t have to use all that power unless you want/need to and the bafang is efficient in the lower levels

 

[BlackHand]

Appreciate the write-up as well. There just isn't much in the way of direct comparisons so this is helpful.

 

[loamoaf]

Being 10 pounds lighter is really noticeable at times. Tricky trails with rocks and ruts where you have to really move the bike around is where these bikes shine. Lifting it over obstacle also great. These are excellent bikes the pedal sensitivity and assistance that feels just like you have someone helping you. Stuck on a steep hill? No problem just put your foot on the pedal and go.

This - apart from ebike restrictions on many mountain trails - is a big reason I'm considering a regular frameset that can fit both my 197/150 wheelsets. I'm fairly young and fit and would love to take advantage of all the trails available here, and I think traveling would be easier as well especially going places in the winter where current battery chemistry wouldn't be so happy and the trails wouldn't see as much elevation. I'm even considering for cost & weight to do a HT build to save a good $1000 & ~4lbs. My main goal is flexibility, affordability, and being able to accept both 29+ & 26 fat wheelsets so I get the most dynamic 'fleet' to cover all situations without having a ton of bikes to store and care for (or spend money on!!)

It’s not like the Hydra where it can take a little more than an eighth of a stroke before the assistance kicks in. These bikes would be perfect for me if I didn’t live on the side of a mountain. Unfortunately almost everywhere I ride there are climbs of over 15° and that seems to be where they exchange of light weight and lower power no longer has a payoff for me.

I keep hearing this and I don't like it. 3 main reasons I'm spending the ~$1000 premium over a stock M620 is supposed to be that instant response/natural feel, efficiency, and programmability in that order, power handling above 1700W peak isn't going to be needed so all that juice is of secondary importance over the stock power handling/programming. I want that instant torque-sensor response from the ~10kHz purported report rate and instance power cutoff when I stop pedaling forward or back pedal. Somebody mentioned in the programming for the X1 this can be solved, I already have a stock 52V M620 in my posession to compare when my X1 finally arrives.

I should note I did some testing on the Levo’s before we started the trail but they were mostly ridden by the 160 pound friends. Whether they were simply more fit or it was their light weight or the Brose 90nm (probably a combination) the difference in their speed and ability to climb compared to the Bosch was noticeable.

I'd like to see the Brose compared to the new Shimano EP8 as well. I've seen the Bosch motors have had a fair bit of warrantying necessary and the Brose S-Mags get a lot of love, but I've also seen positive response about the Shimano's feel, power, and efficiency as well. I'd love a sub-40lb ebike. I haven't weighed my E06 yet but it's easy to lift over my head with full carbon build... and no motor or battery. Even running tubeless I'm scared to weigh it once I get the motor & battery in as it's a monster truck and definitely not going to be as nimble on the technical sections. A fairly affordable build that could either fit my current wheelsets or maybe come in 27.5 would be pretty nice to toss around and also offer to any riding buddies if I wanted someone to keep up with me on the E06

If you’re not as fit as a 30 year old

Hey hey there are some fit 30 year olds that may need to tow trailers or just need to climb up walls. On a more serious note, studies show ebike riders (think LBS, not WW) burn about 80% of the calories per mile as regular cyclists, but this is offset by increased ride time thanks to the assistance from the motor fighting fatigue. Another reason I want the smoothest, most responsive controller experience possible - I'd like to be able to put as much of my own power to the wheels as efficiently as possible while relying on the motor to assist me, rather than my legs just driving a motor that does all the work. Or at least I'd like it to feel that way if the other way is more efficient haha!


Good comparison, though I won't say I'm surprised at the conclusion. If anybody you ride with has cameras or patience it'd definitely be cool to see how the Hydra rides over some terrain. Or if you have a trail you've familiarized yourself with, ride footage using different bikes with times is also a cool way to compare - who has time for that though? I've seen some good reviews on wheel size comparison with like a chest mount GoPro and side by side footage of the same trail, 29+ vs 26 fat, and you can see where each setup excels and struggles - it was kind of cool to see how close they were in the end even though at times one was further ahead than the other. Granted this is on unassisted bikes. Now a head to head with the X1 tuned to the same power level as the other motors (750W nominal?) would really give you an idea of how they stack up in terms of climbing capability/speed and efficiency.

 

[JRA]

I'm just not getting the pedal lag on my Z1 Luna with the UART M620 in stock tuning. In fact I have become less dependent on the throttle, which is not programmed correctly and jumpy, for starting off whereas on my old OSF TS bikes it was always a help even though they had a quick response also. I think it has to do with the extra nm's.....pedal engages, while not immediately so as to activate if bumped somehow while off the bike, but with a small amount of pressure you are off, and as it is a big bike you had better be ready to go with it. I might add here that I don't think an M620 bike is the right choice as a beginner bike, may be wrong but they will buck you off pronto if you aren't paying attention.

I do agree with the above though that if you want to make good time in steep terrain while exerting as much energy as you feel the need an M620 bike is bad ass. I haven't gotten a chance to ride with any of my younger friends yet but I know I am going to have to taper back in order to not be waiting for them all the time and in general pissing them off because, well you just don't do that sort of thing.

Using mode 2 on flats both false and truly downs and mode 3 on the ups in conjunction with the proper gear ratio/ leg speed at this time with the stock tune I am recording 30wh/mi off road with average speed just under 10 and 2k vert as an example. Which to me is quite alot as that is the wh/mi I got on my 1000w + gravel eBike on a flat road averaging 30mph 4 yrs. ago. I am pretty sure that when I get to ride with my buddy on his Giant I will not be burning as many volts. Is fun though.

In regards to comparative trail riding I don't have alot experience with longer travel bikes in general. My last DIY effort was on an old XC frame with a TS mid drive. And it was a step up from the equally XC oriented steed hardtail I had the motor on before it. I first noticed an increase in confidence awhile ago when I took my buddies Giant FS bike out for a test ride one day. One spot that usually had me off and walking was especially impressive to me because the bike just glided over it. I didn't ride that bike any more just so I would still ride my POS.....

One section of single track in the woods where a slide happened above and wiped out the old trail and a new one primarily for hiking was put in is kind of nasty with roots, mud and off camber and I have pretty much always failed to clean it or even close. Including a few spills trying....I have been riding it of course with the new bike lately but today was the first day that I was able to blast through there because of the increase in confidence I have gained of what the bike is capable of. If I get bucked off while trying it isn't going to be pretty but once again, it is fun though. Still on section in there that I need to come to grips with however....next time.

I don't feel any weight penalties whatsoever in handling even though my last eBike was 50lbs wet. This one weighs 63lbs.. It is a little hard to get over downed logs and wrestle around logging road gates, in other words at under 1mph but once it is underway it doesn't seem to be affected by it to me at least and I feel the + tires and generous suspension have alot to do with that.

Just a word on the 155 cranks they work great. In fact I think that all eBikes should come with them regardless. The loss in leverage is more than made up for in efficiency of getting them to spin around to your advantage in coordinating with the PAS and not to mention ground clearance that gives you a better chance against pedal strikes. When you are bombing down a bumpy road and pedaling you don't want a surprise pedal strike due to suspension compression, that would be bad. You definitely can feel exactly the amount of effort you are putting in with your legs as normal even though the stock tuning is kind of biased towards cadence on my bike. Want more just pedal harder or back off on the assist mode, your choice the resistance is there.

 

[TomD]

Someone that wants more power than euro-spec might also consider a M600 offering, such as the Luna X2. The original Luna X1 left a lot to be desired as Luna's tuning prior to 2021 was garbage at lower PAS and pedal strike was also a big issue. Luna came out with shorter cranks for the M600 but they're almost too short IME, that's really the the only thing I think holds the M600 back for trail use. Hydra may also have some issues with pedal strike, at least with the standard cranks. While the Hydra might be a better option for someone that is getting up there in age and/or less fit, the Luna X2 might be a better option somewhere in between. It's going to be a good 5 pounds lighter than the Hydra, and you can probably get closer to the weight of a Levo with carbon wheels, while still coming in at a lower price. Also, Ludi V2 can supposedly be tuned to class 1 if you wan to be compliant with regs on some trails.

 

[Johnny]

It’s work very well but when you had a sustained climb of more than 50 feet I was putting so much energy into the peddles that my legs really started to grow tired. My friend who is 15 pounds more than me had the same feeling. EMTB mode worked great until you want to just a little more power then you thought put into turbo will get it for you but there was no more to be had you were already maxed out.

This is what me and several others have been saying. It is perfectly in line with the theory. These mainstream mid drives are nice for technical riding but they fail to deliver higher speeds at sustained climbs. I can cap my bosch cx on tour, that is it gives nothing more when I switch to emtb or turbo.
Moreover on turbo none of them feel natural.

In terms of power I no longer like mainstream mid drives. They are meant to be jack of all trades but failing at exceling anything. Since I am mostly on eco and rarely on tour on my emtb. I would much prefer a fazua or Levo sl like system for mountain biking. When it comes to keeping up higher speeds at climbs this time I would probably prefer a more powerful mid drive which can sustain 750W.

Also the nonsense about efficiency: When you are pushing these mid drives to the max they are not any more efficient than others.

 

[vincent]

I agree on the M600, like that motor and would like another bike with it

Had an FLX with it and the noise to don’t bother me but I am half deaf so I’m sure that makes a difference, was pleased with how smooth it was etc.

And it seems like Luna and everyone else is refining it even more, pretty sure I have one of those in my future

 

[Acme]

Someone that wants more power than euro-spec might also consider a M600 offering, such as the Luna X2. The original Luna X1 left a lot to be desired as Luna's tuning prior to 2021 was garbage at lower PAS and pedal strike was also a big issue. Luna came out with shorter cranks for the M600 but they're almost too short IME, that's really the the only thing I think holds the M600 back for trail use. Hydra may also have some issues with pedal strike, at least with the standard cranks. While the Hydra might be a better option for someone that is getting up there in age and/or less fit, the Luna X2 might be a better option somewhere in between. It's going to be a good 5 pounds lighter than the Hydra, and you can probably get closer to the weight of a Levo with carbon wheels, while still coming in at a lower price. Also, Ludi V2 can supposedly be tuned to class 1 if you wan to be compliant with regs on some trails.

I really like the M600. I’m just not that fan of Luna and the current X2 build. The one that was offered on Black Friday was decent spec but the current X2 is not that great. If I bought one I would literally have to change out all the major components. The aftermarket controller they have is a definite step up from the previous Ludacris however it is still internal and being that these are smaller motors they can generate a lot of heat so I’m waiting for a bike with an external controller.
Luckily I don’t think I’ll have to wait too long. I know 2 manufacturers that are working on higher spec M600 FS with the external controllers. I guessing 4-6 months. Who ever can bring it to market first gets my order. I have seen one manufacturer‘s preliminary drawings that made me very excited, I’m sorry I can’t share them yet. I’m really hoping they will be able to make it happen.
The Z1 doesn’t excite me at all. I have a Frey with the standard Bafang controller and it is a dog compared to the Innotrace. Although it is not the new Uart

 

[TomD]

What would you have to change besides the shocks on the X2?

As far as your Frey with standard controller, have you tested FREY smooth tune? I asked Pushkar/Innotrace if they had compared Archon/Innotrace to smooth tune. Pushkar never responded and Innotrace only replied in theoretical terms. Would be great to get some feedback on how much difference there is vs. standard controller with better tuning.

Smooth Tune vs. Archon X1

@pushkar, have you (or Innotrace) run any comparisons of the stock controller with smooth tune settings vs. Archon X1? Users who have programmed smooth tune on their stock controllers seem to be quite happy, although hard to say how well it compares to the upgraded controller as nobody has...

electricbikereview.com

In the spring I'll be able to test myself as a buddy of mine finally got his Hydra and will compare to his older FLX Blade after I upgrade it with smooth tune.

 

[loamoaf]

@TomD since I have a stock UART M620 I think I'll pick up a programming harness and look into getting it set up with the smooth tune. I have a lot of different conditions from mountains to converted railways to paved paths, and I'd be able to just swap out motors so everything else (bike, tires, battery) are exactly the same and focus solely on the difference between the motors. I hope WW can stick to their mid-Jan date for getting rocking on orders that are awaiting controllers. My fat rims arrive tomorrow and I don't expect a huge lead time on getting the rims tensioned & trued after I build them up since it's the off season here. Just waiting on some battery parts from a 3D printer and the X1 motor at this point.

 

[bexamous]

Cool writeup.

Ive been seeing a lot of traditional Levi’s etc. and keep wondering to myself do I really need all the power of the Hydra. They seem happy they’re not terribly winded on those bikes are 10 pounds lighter.

Yeah I've thought this a lot. I have to carry my bike out of house and have to step over two 3 foot baby gates along the way, every time I'm reminded of how heavy Hydra is, haha. Initially choice was a Hyrda with 800wH battery or a Levo or something with 625wH, I'm 220lbs so I went with extra power and battery capacity. Bosch's batteries seem to be going up in size though, if my weight continues to go down and I get back to 195lbs.. yeah I'm not sure I'd still go for M620.

Stuck on a steep hill? No problem just put your foot on the pedal and go. It’s not like the Hydra where it can take a little more than an eighth of a stroke before the assistance kicks in.

This seems like something that should get fixed.. or least make some option available to leave it up to user to decide what to do. I can see wanting to avoid applying assist if bike is stopped and something accidently hits pedals.. but seems reasonable if you apply decent force to pedals for a full second, even if they don't move much applying assist seems reasonable. Maybe don't jump to 2500w maybe ramp it up longer you put non-trivail forceon pedals higher limit is. I dunno. This is why I put throttle back on, starting on hill. Seems like an ugly solution though.

 

[rtp]

Stuck on a steep hill? No problem just put your foot on the pedal and go. It’s not like the Hydra where it can take a little more than an eighth of a stroke before the assistance kicks in. These bikes would be perfect for me if I didn’t live on the side of a mountain.

Good write-up; thx for sharing!

I keep seeing reference to 1/8th revolution (you) to 1/3rd revolution before assistance kicks in on the Innotrace/Archon/Hydra. I’m sure this is a software configuration or setting vs any hardware limitation, as this is not the case on my X2/LudiV2 - One of my first surprises coming from a programmed BBHSD was the first time I got on the bike, put my foot on the pedal and assistance was starting. I’d like to adjust that slightly but when underway in low PAS levels (I usually run in 2 or 3 of 9) swapping bikes with my wife’s Bosch, they feel quite similar in responsiveness although PAS 2 is probably a bit more power than Bosch ECO. Is there a setting available to the user to adjust this on the X1/Innotrace? I’ve gone looking for the original video done by Pushkar but it seems to be offline now.. ??

Also, can you tell more RE: eMTB mode? It sounds like a dynamic mode where the usual modes don’t apply and it just adds power based on torque pedal put but maybe with a ‘smarter’ or larger # of increments? Do both the Specialized and Trek have the emtb mode now?

 

[rtp]

Someone that wants more power than euro-spec might also consider a M600 offering, such as the Luna X2. The original Luna X1 left a lot to be desired as Luna's tuning prior to 2021 was garbage at lower PAS and pedal strike was also a big issue. Luna came out with shorter cranks for the M600 but they're almost too short IME, that's really the the only thing I think holds the M600 back for trail use. Hydra may also have some issues with pedal strike, at least with the standard cranks. While the Hydra might be a better option for someone that is getting up there in age and/or less fit, the Luna X2 might be a better option somewhere in between. It's going to be a good 5 pounds lighter than the Hydra, and you can probably get closer to the weight of a Levo with carbon wheels, while still coming in at a lower price. Also, Ludi V2 can supposedly be tuned to class 1 if you wan to be compliant with regs on some trails.

There are 3 ‘profiles’ on the Ludiv2/vesc mobile app, each configurable for things like max power, assist, throttle etc.
Each of them can be adjusted from the app and saved back to the controller. The default profiles are Street Legal, Trail and Ludicrous (of course..).
Set your ‘legal’ settings, save and done, although I’d expect to be able to do the same w/Archon, no?
The display PAS levels are then proportional to the profile settings, i.e. each PAS level below Max in profile is proportional. Overall works well but am hoping to see some additional params/options exposed from the mobile app over time…although can also use the full desktop app.

I’ve been meaning to weigh my X2 since swapping wheels and going tubeless but my scale was dead..got a replacement so just need to get around to it.

I do have the 150mm crank arms now. I expected to feel more effort in pedaling and in motor response, but it wasn’t night and day. It’s a lot easier to find aftermarket crank arms for the Ultra than for the M600 at this point…

 

[rtp]

I really like the M600. I’m just not that fan of Luna and the current X2 build. The one that was offered on Black Friday was decent spec but the current X2 is not that great. If I bought one I would literally have to change out all the major components. The aftermarket controller they have is a definite step up from the previous Ludacris however it is still internal and being that these are smaller motors they can generate a lot of heat so I’m waiting for a bike with an external controller.
Luckily I don’t think I’ll have to wait too long. I know 2 manufacturers that are working on higher spec M600 FS with the external controllers. I guessing 4-6 months. Who ever can bring it to market first gets my order. I have seen one manufacturer‘s preliminary drawings that made me very excited, I’m sorry I can’t share them yet. I’m really hoping they will be able to make it happen.
The Z1 doesn’t excite me at all. I have a Frey with the standard Bafang controller and it is a dog compared to the Innotrace. Although it is not the new Uart

Is your Frey running the Smooth Tune or non-default settings or is it a CANBUS motor?

Yes, also not a huge fan of the DNM-equipped X2s at the price as it’d be a bunch more replacements needed.

RE: heat. The M600 has a temp sensor and the controller will do a ‘tapered’ shutdown for thermal limits being approached and reached.
What I don’t know for certain is how much of the thermal load is coming from the motor versus the controller - did anyone measure and post #s or is it an assumption RE external controller?

 

[Acme]

My Frey is stock and a little over a year old. I’m not sure which motor but the tune is stock I do not know how to tune it. My observations are based on when I got on an Innotrace motor after riding the Frey and honestly there was no comparison performance or range. it was night and day.
i’m not Engeneer but from what I understand the controller and the motor both crelate heat. The heat will affect the controller as well as the motor so if you can separate them will get better performance.
I have not tuned my Innotrace yet so it is possible then I can get rid of the peddle coming from a dead stop. I think everyone should keep in mind, lower power settings are much easier to tune then higher power settings there’s a lot more involved in smoothing out a 1500 W motor versus a 700 W motor
Tom asked what else I would buy other than the X2. At the moment nothing. My Hydra‘s are working great. I know there are some really awesome M600 bikes coming soon so I see no reason to buy an X2 and spend another $2000 upgrading parts knowing there are some really Bitchin bikes coming soon so I see no reason to buy an X2 and spend another $2000 upgrading parts when something much better will be available if I just wait a little longer.
If anyone is really curious to know what the Hydras ride like and you are coming through Santa Barbara reach out to me.
Gary

 

[rtp]

My Frey is stock and a little over a year old. I’m not sure which motor but the tune is stock I do not know how to tune it. My observations are based on when I got on an Innotrace motor after riding the Frey and honestly there was no comparison performance or range. it was night and day.
i’m not Engeneer but from what I understand the controller and the motor both crelate heat. The heat will affect the controller as well as the motor so if you can separate them will get better performance.
I have not tuned my Innotrace yet so it is possible then I can get rid of the peddle coming from a dead stop. I think everyone should keep in mind, lower power settings are much easier to tune then higher power settings there’s a lot more involved in smoothing out a 1500 W motor versus a 700 W motor
Tom asked what else I would buy other than the X2. At the moment nothing. My Hydra‘s are working great. I know there are some really awesome M600 bikes coming soon so I see no reason to buy an X2 and spend another $2000 upgrading parts knowing there are some really Bitchin bikes coming soon so I see no reason to buy an X2 and spend another $2000 upgrading parts when something much better will be available if I just wait a little longer.
If anyone is really curious to know what the Hydras ride like and you are coming through Santa Barbara reach out to me.
Gary

It would be a good real-world comparison if you were able to pick up or borrow a cable (assuming UART Ultra in your Frey - probably is as I think you've had it a while) and apply the Smooth Tune to it. This isn't 'programming' no matter what people like to call it, it's just setting various configuration parameters. 'Tuning' is probably the most appropriate word but *shrug*.
There's tons of info out there on tuning the Bafang motors, and the cable can be had for ~$25.

That would be a good real-world comparison versus just assuming the Innotrace or Ludi are miles beyond a 'better' set up Ultra. I have no doubts on efficiency improvements, and it's likely there is still a noticeable difference, but I'm not sure we have many posters who have run an Ultra with Smooth tune or other non-stock to compare to the Archon or other?

Stock Ultra settings and Programming guide

By proceeding with the following you are acknowledging that you are following these instructions carefully and in full. Biktrix is not liable for any changes being made resulting in corruption of t...

support.biktrix.com

https://support.biktrix.com/hc/en-us/articles/360039064292-Bafang-Controller-PAS-Programming-Guide

Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely...

electricbikereview.com

At the very least, this is a good read and has some nuggets of good info (including the smooth tune) such as - ECO modes can not be overridden to provide assist at lower pedal pressures..

Bafang Ultra Review. Most powerful Mid-Drive PAS motor just got better

The Bafand Ultra is here. You might not know it by looking at it, but this 48V mid-drive is packing 1,500W peak of power at 160Nm of torque, more than any other PAS e-bike motor on the market. Here we look at it in detail.

frey-bafang.patransformers.com

True on heat but until measured it's unknown as to it's significance. Hearsay and 'common sense' is nice, but measurements of cause and effect win.

If I owned a Hydra, I doubt I'd be looking for another bike either, M600 or otherwise. I can say the same of my Rockshox X2/Ludi - although I'd want some changes in both.

If WW ever sells components again or some path to buy an Ultra with Innotrace exists in the US, I might consider one for grins and build a bike around it. Likewise when (I'm assuming this, but most of the work's been done other than presumably different board layout) Luna releases an Ultra LudiV2, would be interested for the same reason. It would be great if you or someone with a UART Ultra in the meantime, that also has an Innotrace/Archon Ultra bike, could do a real comparison of the Smooth tuned Ultra vs the Archon.

 

[rtp]

PS - back to the Trek/Specialized/Hydra comparison.
I've had some similar thoughts both with my tuned BBHSD and even my Ludi X2. I mostly ride in lower PAS levels to the point of > 90% of my riding is in PAS 2 of 9, occasionally 3.
Some of those bikes - are quite nice overall. I personally kind of dig the Orbed Wild, Rise and a few others...

However, I just can't get over a few things:
1. Price on some of those bikes, even with mid-level components... is a bit over the top. Would still be upgrading some components on several of them.
2. 20mph assist limit. Yeah, a lot of my riding is at or below this, but not all of it is, and it's nonsense. It fundamentally is broken, at least for the US. I could probably live with a 30mph limit if I had to as a compromise, but still wouldn't be thrilled about it.
3. Non-repairability of the motors, at least ability to get parts, etc.
4. Expensive proprietary batteries. This one's a bit mixed, honestly, but when I see for example, a 650wH battery for $700-$1K, yeah, it rubs me the wrong way. I do like the 'water bottle range extenders' however, and wish the 'Bafang bikes' would consider these types of things a bit more, e.g. 2 sets of water bottle mounts on the frames, half-sized 'water bottle' batteries and the like. Might just be a case of 'that's kind of neat' versus the heavy clunky second battery arrangements I've seen to date on Bafang powered bikes..

I also like the fact that more 'EU spec brands' are starting to realize and open up more user configurability. (Ironic, as Bafang seems to want to start to limit it...sigh)

Now, if some changes were made, e.g. increasing to removal of the speed limits, and some real price competition - it's possible I'd change my mind, but I also don't see it happening any time real soon.

Can you tell more RE: eMTB mode? It sounds like a dynamic mode where the usual modes don’t apply and it just adds power based on torque pedal put but maybe with a ‘smarter’ or larger # of increments? Do both the Specialized and Trek have the emtb mode now?

 

[Ebiker33]

I really like the M600. I’m just not that fan of Luna and the current X2 build. The one that was offered on Black Friday was decent spec but the current X2 is not that great. If I bought one I would literally have to change out all the major components. The aftermarket controller they have is a definite step up from the previous Ludacris however it is still internal and being that these are smaller motors they can generate a lot of heat so I’m waiting for a bike with an external controller.
Luckily I don’t think I’ll have to wait too long. I know 2 manufacturers that are working on higher spec M600 FS with the external controllers. I guessing 4-6 months. Who ever can bring it to market first gets my order. I have seen one manufacturer‘s preliminary drawings that made me very excited, I’m sorry I can’t share them yet. I’m really hoping they will be able to make it happen.
The Z1 doesn’t excite me at all. I have a Frey with the standard Bafang controller and it is a dog compared to the Innotrace. Although it is not the new Uart

Did you see the thread on the Bolton Falcon powered by Watt Wagons M600 X1, is this one of the Ebikes you were talking about?

 

[Acme]

I didn’t know they had gone public yet. I think they are still 2-4 months from having them available. I think this is going to be a great summer. Definitely saving me money