Hub, mid, torque sensor

[GaryInCO]

I'm looking at ebikes, and I went to Lectric to ride the XP3.0 and XPremium. The XP3.0 felt good, decent handling, but I HATE HATE HATE the cadence sensor on the hub drive. I don't like that it suddenly slams into gear and practically dumps you off the back, and I also don't like that the hub drive basically makes an electric scooter that goes X mph whether you pedal or not. The XPremium felt like a tank, very heavy and ponderous, and yet the frame/steering felt noodly and wobbly. But the mid-drive was great, specifically I think the torque sensor. It worked very smoothly, felt very natural, felt like a proper bicycle -- it just felt like my legs were stronger than they are.

(The first time I rode an ebike was on a trip. The cadence sensor slammed into gear at an inopportune time, I hit both front&back brakes, and that's when I discovered the rental ebike had a weak rear brake. The bike stood on its nose and threw me. 5 cracked ribs later ... That may contribute to my dim view of cadence sensors.)

So I'm wondering if there are other good options to consider. I want something with 75 miles of range, which really cuts down the choices. (Though swapping in a second battery is possible.) Folding is a big want. Low price is a big want. Those requirements generally don't combine very well, except in the XPremium. Any other suggestions?

FWIW I know someone local who's selling his XPremium for $1300. That's hard to beat, even if I don't really like the ride of the XPremium.

I'd be doing mostly road riding, with some mild off-road and trail riding. The XPremium is definitely not a jumper. But neither am I, I'm 66 ...

 

[rarobo]

Welcome to the forum, if I was looking at a folder it would be the Evelin Dash, it is more expensive at the sale price and they are into Aug. for delivery. You are not going to get 75 miles on a folder battery, they are limited in size. The Lectric bike are not bad bikes, but you get what you pay for, sorry you were injured on a bike, I rarely squeeze the front brake, use it for a controlled stop like a vehicle

 

[AHicks]

I'm looking at ebikes, and I went to Lectric to ride the XP3.0 and XPremium. The XP3.0 felt good, decent handling, but I HATE HATE HATE the cadence sensor on the hub drive. I don't like that it suddenly slams into gear and practically dumps you off the back, and I also don't like that the hub drive basically makes an electric scooter that goes X mph whether you pedal or not. The XPremium felt like a tank, very heavy and ponderous, and yet the frame/steering felt noodly and wobbly. But the mid-drive was great, specifically I think the torque sensor. It worked very smoothly, felt very natural, felt like a proper bicycle -- it just felt like my legs were stronger than they are.

(The first time I rode an ebike was on a trip. The cadence sensor slammed into gear at an inopportune time, I hit both front&back brakes, and that's when I discovered the rental ebike had a weak rear brake. The bike stood on its nose and threw me. 5 cracked ribs later ... That may contribute to my dim view of cadence sensors.)

So I'm wondering if there are other good options to consider. I want something with 75 miles of range, which really cuts down the choices. (Though swapping in a second battery is possible.) Folding is a big want. Low price is a big want. Those requirements generally don't combine very well, except in the XPremium. Any other suggestions?

FWIW I know someone local who's selling his XPremium for $1300. That's hard to beat, even if I don't really like the ride of the XPremium.

I'd be doing mostly road riding, with some mild off-road and trail riding. The XPremium is definitely not a jumper. But neither am I, I'm 66 ...

On the bold, if/when you find a bike that behaves this way, it's broken. NO bike should have a motor that runs unless you are pedaling - or - you tell it to run through the use of a throttle. Further, regarding the bike that dumped you over the handlebars, THAT BIKE, the second you touched the brake, should have shut the motor down, regardless if you were using the throttle or not. There are switches to do that located in each brake handle - or there are supposed to be.....

Point here being, maybe some time spent developing an understanding of how the e-bikes are SUPPOSED to work might be worth your while.....

Agree 75 mile range on a folder, or probably any 20" bike, is likely going to be pretty rare. Worth mentioning here maybe, is a lesson learned on my first bike - a home built. I put a huge battery in that, eventually finding that it would run 50 miles pretty easily. What I learned only later was my butt only has a 20 mile range. After 20 miles or so, I'd much rather be doing something else. Secondary lesson here too. That battery that allowed a 50 mile range was HEAVY. Every time I used that bike, I was toting around a bunch of unnecessary weight - as compared to a bike w/battery sized closer to my REAL needs... FWIW, -Al

 

[GaryInCO]

Welcome to the forum, if I was looking at a folder it would be the Evelin Dash, it is more expensive at the sale price and they are into Aug. for delivery. You are not going to get 75 miles on a folder battery, they are limited in size.

The Evelo Dash is a bit over my budget and under my range needs. Aug delivery doesn't work either -- the original reason for getting an ebike was to join a fundraiser ride this summer, 150 miles in 2 days. (And similar long rides in the future.) There's no way I can do 75 miles a day on my beast of a recumbent (doesn't help I'm 66 with in-remission cancer) so I thought an ebike was a good answer.

The Lectric XPremium is a folder and they claim 100 mile range. It has 2 batteries, so it's kinda cheating, but it works. (And you can remove one battery if you don't need the range.) It weighs 75lbs so it's a monster to throw in the back of the car, but you can lighten it 20lbs by pulling out the batteries. And it has a torque-sensing mid-drive WITH a throttle, and auto motor cut-out when you shift or brake, and it's very reasonably priced, and it seems to get a lot of good reviews from owners. It's a rare combination of almost every feature I want/need. If only it had a better ride, but I guess you can't have everything.

There are also folders that do 60-ish miles, and those might be an option.

On the bold, if/when you find a bike that behaves this way, it's broken. NO bike should have a motor that runs unless you are pedaling

What I learned only later was my butt only has a 20 mile range. After 20 miles or so, I'd much rather be doing something else.

I misspoke. I shouldn't have said "goes X mph whether you pedal or not," but "goes X mph whether you PUSH or not." If the pedals are rotating, the motor is 100% on, even if you're just "ghost pedaling" and not putting out any wattage yourself. I don't like that. I want the bike to amplify what I do.

Good point about butt training. I'm used to a big cushy seat on my recumbent. My brother has been telling me I don't need to develop my legs, I need "calluses" on my butt ...

 

[keithj69]

Have you considered converting your recumbent to electric?

 

[rarobo]

Did any of the reviews say anything about riding 150 miles in 2 days? Let me tell you, I do that on my full size some, and it hurts, especially where the sun doesn’t shine, can’t imagine it on a folder. 1300 sounds like a lot for a used Lectric folder…..but maybe someone will chime in that knows more about them than me… good luck on you search

 

[m@Robertson]

If the pedals are rotating, the motor is 100% on, even if you're just "ghost pedaling" and not putting out any wattage yourself.

That is not always the case with cadence sensing. If the Lectric does that it means they put in a crappy controller with an on/off cadence sensor. Which honestly is not so much of a shock as its a bargain-priced bike.

KT controllers, which are in pretty wide - but not universal - use, provide variable output. Higher as your crankarm rotation and speed is slow and less as the bike gets up to speed and crankarm rotation heads toward spinning. They call it "simulated torque sensing" in the manual, which seems like a lame way to describe it but bottom line is its not the laggy, on/off you hear complaints about at all. Especially if you also set it to slow-start, which trickles in the power on a more shallow curve at startup.

Bafang BBSxx mid drive motors have cadence sensing options so complex you see articles written about how to modify it to get desirable results (its factory settings suck, which is what most people leave it at).

Cyc Motor has had a combination torque/cadence system for some time. Standing on the crankarm from a dead stop (like on a trail) its torque. As crankarm rotation increases, it goes to cadence.

Moral of the story is the choice is not black-and-white.

 

[AHicks]

I misspoke. I shouldn't have said "goes X mph whether you pedal or not," but "goes X mph whether you PUSH or not." If the pedals are rotating, the motor is 100% on, even if you're just "ghost pedaling" and not putting out any wattage yourself. I don't like that. I want the bike to amplify what I do.

Good point about butt training. I'm used to a big cushy seat on my recumbent. My brother has been telling me I don't need to develop my legs, I need "calluses" on my butt ...

Most complain about the low speed capabilities. They aren't as noticeable when riding at "cruise" speeds, say 12mph or faster. The bigger issue is allowing the rider to run 6-10mph, and the only way to do that is to stop and start pedaling to control your speed. Yes, a pain in the butt.

You do have 5 "assist" levels, but on the inexpensive bikes, these amount to establishing the speed you are going when power to the motor tapers off. MANY who are not aware will have their PAS (assist) level set on 5, not realizing that while at that setting the power to the motor isn't going to shut down/taper off until the bike is doing 20mph or so. Lower PAS/assist levels should lower that cut off speed. EG PAS 1 is generally good for 11-13 mph.

Last, if you're serious about this 2 day ride, you might want to do a little survey questioning the wisdom of trying this with a folder, or any bike with 20" wheels... fat tire or conventional.....

 

[GaryInCO]

Have you considered converting your recumbent to electric?

Thought about it, but ... I couldn't use a front hub drive because most of the weight is on the rear wheel. Bafang rear 26" wheels are in the $700-$800 range, without battery/controller/etc., mids aren't cheap either. By the time you get all the parts &etc, you end up with a spit & baling-wire solution that's not that much less than the $1300 used XPremium. And my recumbent is 25 yrs old ... maybe not the best platform to invest in a $1000 upgrade.

Did any of the reviews say anything about riding 150 miles in 2 days? Let me tell you, I do that on my full size some, and it hurts, especially where the sun doesn’t shine, can’t imagine it on a folder. 1300 sounds like a lot for a used Lectric folder…..

Yeah I expect the distance will be a challenge, even with e-assist. The Lectric goes for $1600 new, and this one only has about 100 miles on it.

Last, if you're serious about this 2 day ride, you might want to do a little survey questioning the wisdom of trying this with a folder, or any bike with 20" wheels... fat tire or conventional.....

Why's that? Is the ride too harsh on small wheels?

I notice both you and @rarobo mentioned "folder" like it's a liability. Is there something about folders I don't know? I liked it because I can toss it in the back of my car, instead of adding a trailer hitch to my car ($500 aftermarket, $1300 from Tesla) plus a bike rack that can haul a hefty ebike ($300-$500). Plus if it's folded in the car, I don't have to worry about somebody "liberating" it from the rack.

 

[rarobo]

Thought about it, but ... I couldn't use a front hub drive because most of the weight is on the rear wheel. Bafang rear 26" wheels are in the $700-$800 range, without battery/controller/etc., mids aren't cheap either. By the time you get all the parts &etc, you end up with a spit & baling-wire solution that's not that much less than the $1300 used XPremium. And my recumbent is 25 yrs old ... maybe not the best platform to invest in a $1000 upgrade.


Yeah I expect the distance will be a challenge, even with e-assist. The Lectric goes for $1600 new, and this one only has about 100 miles on it.


Why's that? Is the ride too harsh on small wheels?

I notice both you and @rarobo mentioned "folder" like it's a liability. Is there something about folders I don't know? I liked it because I can toss it in the back of my car, instead of adding a trailer hitch to my car ($500 aftermarket, $1300 from Tesla) plus a bike rack that can haul a hefty ebike ($300-$500). Plus if it's folded in the car, I don't have to worry about somebody "liberating" it from the rack.

Folder is a term I use to describe them, nothing negative, I see them a lot when I’m in my RV, when I talk to them they are happy with them, when I notice them they may be gone a hour or two, most of them ride them locally around the campgrounds, or where they live. I think a trip like that would be huge, just trying to help. Have you posted on the Lectric sub forum? Might get more info with actual owners

 

[AHicks]

Why's that? Is the ride too harsh on small wheels?

I notice both you and @rarobo mentioned "folder" like it's a liability. Is there something about folders I don't know? I liked it because I can toss it in the back of my car, instead of adding a trailer hitch to my car ($500 aftermarket, $1300 from Tesla) plus a bike rack that can haul a hefty ebike ($300-$500). Plus if it's folded in the car, I don't have to worry about somebody "liberating" it from the rack.

I've never spent much time on one, so I'm darn sure no expert. That's why I suggested you see what some of the others will be riding. For one, I would think it's likely going to be tough to find one that a guy my size (72 years old/6'2"/300 lbs) is going to be comfortable on - especially regarding proper leg extension. Yes, I would be concerned about the ride a 20" wheel is going to provide vs. a more conventional 26"-29".

I do recognize this is going to be YOUR bike, and as such it may need to be a folder to get the job done for you. If that's what it's going to take, go for it!

Last, I wish I knew what I know now when picking out my first bike. It took a huge leap of faith, not knowing if I was going to be using it much, or if it would just sit in a dark corner of the garage collecting dust. To my amazement, I found I ride pretty much daily, so it's very easy for me to justify spending the money for a bike now. Been riding e-bikes for several years now. Currently have 3 with my name on them, and 2 more for the wife, my riding partner. That's not including the bikes that have been sold.....

Best of luck on your search! -Al

 

[GaryInCO]

I only weigh 180lb, but I'm 6'4"`. So I have similar leg extension issues! I had to set the seat pretty high, but I was comfortable on the Lectric XPremium.

Yeah this is a leap of faith for me too. I like the idea of an ebike, but I don't like that I have to get one with such a high range, just for this charity ride. It really limits my choices. But I want to do the ride, soo... If my butt can handle it and I enjoy it, I might even join my brother on the RAGBRAI ride across Iowa -- 500 miles in 7 days. And Iowa is NOT flat. But who cares, I'd have an ebike ...

 

[indianajo]

I've had trouble with bikes pitching me over the handlebars on my chin, and I didn't have the brake on. Two MTB's, a diamondback & a Pacific Quantum, also a Huffy Savannah. The front wheel would hit a bump, ridge of gravel, a stick, the front wheel would snap sideways, the tire would grab, the seat would lift, over I would go. 5 times 2008-2018. My current stretch frame cargo bike has solved that problem by putting my weight on the front wheel. 5 years & ~ 10000 miles, no spills. I blame inadequate caster on the front wheel. my Mother's 1946 Firestone bike had the same wheel & seating position but was stable as a rock with no hands. All modern bikes have the same stupid fast steering, and I couldn't get a custom frame builder do even discuss changing the front fork from the modern standard. Drop handlebar road bikes like Orbea or cannondale put enough rider weight on the front wheel with the flat back head forward riding position, but flexing my head back 90 degrees to see would be a pain in the neck. I might rupture a disk as my Mother did with typing at an incorrect workstation.
I hated cadence sense. It is not the hub motor's fault it is the control method. My ebikeling controller wouldn't go slower than 11 mph on PAS1, and that is too fast for the berm I ride on Hwy 3 that narrows sometimes to 3" with a 6" deep trench between it and the car lane. I moved the pedal pickup away from the magnet wheel, and only use throttle. Most time I ride unpowered with no drag, but if the wind is >12 mph in my face, my speed can drop to 4.5 mph. In those cases, with a fixed distance I have to travel to the next load of groceries, I'm happy if the bike pulls me like a scooter. The September before I bought the front hub motor it took me six hours to make 27 miles with heart 140 bpm all the way. Wind is getting worse every year. A hub drive bike with torque sense is the surface 604 line, but they don't sell a folder.
The electric bike company model F is a folder with 24" wheels. My county has actual potholes that I can't miss in the rain or following a car through a traffic light. 20" wheels would rattle my brain without a suspension, and for <$2000 you're not going to get a suspension. Nor a battery that would go 75 miles. I have 840 wh, and with 77 hills on my route to summer camp it can go about 30 miles with a bad headwind.
You're not going to be able to ride unpowered with no drag with a mid drive unless it is a Brose, shimano steps, Yamaha, or the most expensive of 4 models bosch. I find the power cuts out in a bad rain due to water in the throttle, so making it home without calling a tow truck is an important goal for me.
Another folder option is converting an airnimal joey with an aftermarket hub motor kit. It also has 24" wheels. Again I would choose the front. That way you can choose what size battery you buy. I love my front hub motor, it weighs down the front and I have my battery mounted on the fixed basket mounts up there too. I can see front motor would not work climbing hills in the dirt, but I never do that. You do have to remember to cut the power off on slick muddy steel plates (contruction zones), wet wood bridge decks, wet rock, or other fall causes. On most of those I walk the bike anyway instead of pedaling.

 

[GenXrider]

I'm looking at ebikes, and I went to Lectric to ride the XP3.0 and XPremium. The XP3.0 felt good, decent handling, but I HATE HATE HATE the cadence sensor on the hub drive. I don't like that it suddenly slams into gear and practically dumps you off the back, and I also don't like that the hub drive basically makes an electric scooter that goes X mph whether you pedal or not.

I have a hub drive cadence sensor bike, and that doesn't describe how it operates at all. Assist levels are not tied to mph, either, but rather an adjustable power output, which doesn't have to be 100%. Heck, I can set that as low as 1%! I really like how Ride1Up allows you to customize this right in the display's advanced settings. And the bike never suddenly slams into gear - that part works the same as my regular / traditional / standard /ordinary / non-electric bike.

 

[GaryInCO]

I've had trouble with bikes pitching me over the handlebars on my chin, and I didn't have the brake on. Two MTB's, a diamondback & a Pacific Quantum, also a Huffy Savannah. The front wheel would hit a bump, ridge of gravel, a stick, the front wheel would snap sideways, the tire would grab, the seat would lift, over I would go. 5 times 2008-2018.

You're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din. After my FIRST trip over the handlebars, it took me a while to get back on the horse, and I still feel a bit uncomfortable. I was very lucky that I automatically tucked as I sailed through the air, and landed on my back/side (hence the busted ribs). I could very easily have landed on my head, and that woulda been a whole lot worse than ribs. After the 2nd or 3rd launch I woulda said "that's it, I'm gonna quit before I kill myself."

It sounds like you've worked out a good solution that hasn't bucked you off in a while, but for your next project you might consider retrofitting a recumbent. Very comfortable ride, no way could you go over the front. I considered electrifying my recumbent, but I don't know what I'm doing. Plus it's a 25-yr-old beastie, and I can't quite see dumping $1000-ish into it.

I have a hub drive cadence sensor bike, and that doesn't describe how it operates at all. Assist levels are not tied to mph, either, but rather an adjustable power output, which doesn't have to be 100%. Heck, I can set that as low as 1%! I really like how Ride1Up allows you to customize this right in the display's advanced settings. And the bike never suddenly slams into gear - that part works the same as my regular / traditional / standard /ordinary / non-electric bike.

Yeah I'm still learning. The hub drives I've ridden (only a few) operate like that, but I'm realizing not all do. I suspect yours has a torque sensor?

 

[GenXrider]

You're a braver man than I am, Gunga Din. After my FIRST trip over the handlebars, it took me a while to get back on the horse, and I still feel a bit uncomfortable. I was very lucky that I automatically tucked as I sailed through the air, and landed on my back/side (hence the busted ribs). I could very easily have landed on my head, and that woulda been a whole lot worse than ribs. After the 2nd or 3rd launch I woulda said "that's it, I'm gonna quit before I kill myself."

It sounds like you've worked out a good solution that hasn't bucked you off in a while, but for your next project you might consider retrofitting a recumbent. Very comfortable ride, no way could you go over the front. I considered electrifying my recumbent, but I don't know what I'm doing. Plus it's a 25-yr-old beastie, and I can't quite see dumping $1000-ish into it.


Yeah I'm still learning. The hub drives I've ridden (only a few) operate like that, but I'm realizing not all do. I suspect yours has a torque sensor?

No, but the LMTD and Prodigy do.

 

[gromike]

I put a rear hub motor on a bike and it has a torque sensor in the free hub. I do like torque sensing, though because of one weak knee I sometimes get surging and need to put less force on the good leg for a smooth ride. I suppose I hybrid PAS would work better for me.

 

[mcdenny]

Been awhile since the last post but I wanted to add my $0.02. "Tossing" a 60-70 # large unwieldy package into your Tesla will be no trivial task. When you tested the Lectric did you actually load it into your car? It weighs 68# with the battery removed.

We had two 30# 20" folding bikes when we camped a lot. They fit pretty easily into the back of our SUV but I can't imagine hefting one that weighed twice as much. I would think it would take two people. Plus the 20" folders rode like crap compared to the 20 year old 26" hybrid bikes we sold.

If you only need to put it into your car for the charity ride maybe a regular frame bike would work with the front wheel removed. IMHO a folding bike is biased toward compact storage, significantly compromising its riding qualities.

Also, range, as you know from your Tesla, varies greatly with speed and also how much pedaling effort you contribute. I've done some tests with my bike (Specialized Turbo Como 3.0, 530 Wh battery.) With moderate (50 ish watts) effort from me range is 80 miles going 10-11 mph. Turning up the juice so that same effort gets 16-17 mph drops the range to 35 miles. The speed you plan to go on the charity ride will have a lot to do with how long the battery lasts.

The bike manufacturer or even some guy on the Internet who says a bike's range is X needs to define the speed and rider effort to make X meaningful to you. They never do, at least I've never seen a bike spec page that shows range with rider effort and speed. They just weasel word it by saying up to X miles. PS: A 65# bike with wide soft tires is a real pig to pedal unassisted. You really don't want to run your battery flat.

 

[PedalUma]

A guy yesterday wrote a review of what I do on Google Maps. He has a premium compact battery with 504Wh. This is part of what he said. "I've had mine 6 weeks and love it. I've gone 67 miles on 1 charge and there was some charge left." That was with big hills and wind. It is a torque sensing bike. But another guy with a heavy throttle Bafang with 4" wide tires with the same battery, can't make it 2 miles. You do not want to run your battery into the ground. Treat it like a horse that you want to keep.

 

[GaryInCO]

"Tossing" a 60-70 # large unwieldy package into your Tesla will be no trivial task. When you tested the Lectric did you actually load it into your car?

You got that right! I bought a lightly-used XPremium so I loaded it when I bought it 2 days ago. It's a beast, no doubt. Especially since I'm in my late 60's. But do-able. I didn't even remove the batteries.

We had two 30# 20" folding bikes when we camped a lot. They fit pretty easily into the back of our SUV but I can't imagine hefting one that weighed twice as much. I would think it would take two people.

Nah, just an old Iowa farm boy. Strong like bull.

The biggest disappointment is that my Tesla's back hatch is a bit short. Folded in the upright storage position, the bike is about 2" too tall to fit through the hatch. I had planned to get a big wheeled tote/bin, load the bike into that, then hoist the tote into the car (levering it up one end at a time, not brute-forcing it) and slide it on in. That would make the loading process pretty easy. But I can't do that if it's too tall. I'll have to work out some process to slide it on its side. And if it's stored on its side, there won't be room for me to camp next to it, which makes it harder if I want to take it along on a big road trip. Maybe I can figure out a trick to make it fold 2" shorter ........