How do you use a new battery?

[Bulrog]

Hello,

I've just bought a new e-bike Trek Verve+ 3. The seller tell me I have to use the battery to zero, three times, and charge it to 100%.
I've always heard that batteries should never go to zero before recharging. What's more, he advises me to store the bike with a full battery if I'm not using it and to recharge the battery to 100% every month, even if I'm not using the bike. I've always heard that batteries should be stored with a charge of between 30 and 60%. I don't know who to believe any more.
Can you help?

 

[Aushiker]

https://batteryuniversity.com/ is a good source of information and guidance on batteries.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Hello,

I've just bought a new e-bike Trek Verve+ 3. The seller tell me I have to use the battery to zero, three times, and charge it to 100%.
I've always heard that batteries should never go to zero before recharging. What's more, he advises me to store the bike with a full battery if I'm not using it and to recharge the battery to 100% every month, even if I'm not using the bike. I've always heard that batteries should be stored with a charge of between 30 and 60%. I don't know who to believe any more.
Can you help?

no just use it charge it till its done and dont worry about it unless you need to leave it for several months. you want to charge it to 100% always bosch has the longest lasting batteries for the most part. I have batteries with way over 14,000 miles on them.

 

[harryS]

Must be a Trek owners manual that covers this. I wouldn't want to contradict what they say.

I do long term storage at 30-40%. That's the same level required for shipping because it's safer.

By the way, your Trek will shut down around 30% to protect the battery. You can't run it to zero, If the Trek circuitry fails to do so, the battery will shut itself down at a slightly lower voltage for the same reason,




.

 

[Bulrog]

Thank you for all your answers.

 

[Bulrog]

Must be a Trek owners manual that covers this. I wouldn't want to contradict what they say.

I do long term storage at 30-40%. That's the same level required for shipping because it's safer.

By the way, your Trek will shut down around 30% to protect the battery. You can't run it to zero, If the Trek circuitry fails to do so, the battery will shut itself down at a slightly lower voltage for the same reason,




.

The Trek manual doesn't say anything special except that the battery should be fully charged before using the bike for the first time. Hence my question on this forum.

 

[6zfshdb]

It's possible Trek is using some new battery technology, but what your dealer is telling you is contrary to the way the great majority of ebike batteries are handled. The pessimist in me thinks your dealer just wants to sell you a new battery every couple of years.

If there is nothing specific in the manual, I would call or email Trek tech support for their recommendations.

Welcome to the forum, and keep us posted with what you find.

 

[PedalUma]

Charge to 90%. Drain to 10%. Never leave it fully charged of fully depleted. Charge to 100% once every six-months, but only just before a ride.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

I usually charge at 40-45%. At 46v, when my battery sags, I lose about 4 volts. That gets me real close to LVC (controller is set to 42v and I’m not sure what the BMS LVC is)and the bike will power down. Also, the battery seems to get a bit warm when voltage gets lower. I wait about 30-45 minutes for the battery to cool, then I charge to 100%. If I’m near 46-47v after Fridays commute, then I wait until Sunday to charge. Occasionally I’ll let the charger balance charge. I monitor the charge, so when I see .033 amps, I know balance charge is complete.

 

[m@Robertson]

Trek is not using magical proprietary technology. 18650 and 21700 Li-NMC battery chemistry is universally the same in terms of what is good for it, and what is bad for pack longevity.

• When you have a brand spanking new battery, it is a good practice to charge it to 100% a few times to do what is known as a 'balance charge' and ensure all the cells are topped up equally. The unofficial in-the-know guidance on this is to do it 6 times. A balance charge is where you let the battery charge up to 100% but also let it sit on the charger for say 2-3 hours afterwards so the BMS can do its slow topping up of all the cell groups.
• If you ride your bike a lot and do the standard-recommended 80% charge to prolong pack life, you are not letting the pack balance the cells since balancing doesn't happen until around a 98%-ish charge level. So part of a smart charging regimen is to do a monthly 100% balance charge, where again you let the pack sit on the charger for a couple-three hours after it reaches full charge to let the internal process of balancing to happen. If you ride infrequently you can do this much less often.
• Draining a Li-NMC (commonly called li-ion) battery all the way down is bad for it. Don't do it unless you need to for a ride. The issue is called Depth of Discharge (DoD). I have a home solar generator with LiFePO4 cells inside where the manufacturer does recommend a complete drain-down of the pack ONCE after a 100% charge to help the Battery Management System calibrate the full charge range. But thats not an ebike battery and its a different battery chemistry.
• Storing a battery long term at 40-60% is recommended for Li-NMC.

None of the above is new news. There are plenty of opinions and they're all worth what you paid for them. Look to real sources for info and that includes not listening to your ebike sales guy who will be selling you a new battery if you screw up this one. S/he may believe what they are telling you is correct as opposed to an ulterior commercial motive, but don't bet your battery investment on their being right.

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

How to make a lithium battery last, or…kill it, if you like.

We have written in the past about tips that will help your expensive lithium battery pack last as long as possible. This article will cover some additional information about what happens inside the…

www.electricbike.com

Are you killing your lithium batteries?

Lithium-ion batteries are expensive, and large battery packs such as those in everything from electric cars to electric motorcycles and...

electrek.co

 

[Catalyzt]

Charge to 90%. Drain to 10%. Never leave it fully charged of fully depleted. Charge to 100% once every six-months, but only just before a ride.

I know we talked about this before, but aren't you supposed to let the bike sit for 15 to 30 minutes after a full charge? I seem to remember something about not riding immediately-- like, less than 5 minutes-- after a full charge. Could be apocryphal.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

That makes sense to me as well. I imagine charging the battery generates a bit of heat and to pop the battery right back on the bike and start discharging the battery, you’d be introducing yet more heat. Same if you charge right after a long ride. Have you ever noticed your phone getting hot while charging AND using it? The immediate charge and discharge just generates unneeded heat.

 

[PedalUma]

Just do not let it sit for an extended period at full charge or fully depleted. A smart charger will back off pumping amps as a charge reaches 100%. That last 10% takes the longest. I trust @M@Roberson. He says for load balancing let it sit on the charger a while. Then ride immediately.

 

[m@Robertson]

aren't you supposed to let the bike sit for 15 to 30 minutes after a full charge? I seem to remember something about not riding immediately-- like, less than 5 minutes-- after a full charge. Could be apocryphal.

Nope. Not true for Lithium-ion. May be true for some kind of battery chemistry that is not in use with ebikes (lead-acid, NiMh, NiCad... lots of rules differ depending on the battery type and I have no idea what they all are).

A cooling off period IS a good idea when you come in from a ride out in a hot day. Charging a battery adds heat into it, so you don't want to be riding out in 100-degree weather, and then hammer the battery with a 5-amp charge right when you get done with your ride.

I did ride in that kind of weather for my commutes for many years. What I did first of all was put a wired temperature sensor onto my battery pack's surface. This told me how hot at least the surface of the pack was (my pack was built into the bike under the cargo floor, inside of a box). I was able to see the pack surface temperature rise, and this in part guided me on where NOT to park the bike on a hot day (unshaded cement bad) and let me watch the pack temperatures riding over hot cement and shaded asphalt, which actually matters when riding on a day when it is 110 in the shade.

But what it also did that was relevant to my point (finally!) was let me monitor the temperature of the pack immediately post-ride. If its 100 outside, and my pack's surface temp is 105 (not unusual) then I would wait until the temp sensor told me the temp had reduced to 104... 103... 102... when I saw it steadily decreasing then I would hook up a charger and give it a very light charge load of 1 amp. I would never plug in a charger if the pack temperature was still climbing - even if it was only inching up. I'd wait a few minutes until I could confirm it was steadily going back down.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Trek is not using magical proprietary technology. 18650 and 21700 Li-NMC battery chemistry is universally the same in terms of what is good for it, and what is bad for pack longevity.

• When you have a brand spanking new battery, it is a good practice to charge it to 100% a few times to do what is known as a 'balance charge' and ensure all the cells are topped up equally. The unofficial in-the-know guidance on this is to do it 6 times. A balance charge is where you let the battery charge up to 100% but also let it sit on the charger for say 2-3 hours afterwards so the BMS can do its slow topping up of all the cell groups.
• If you ride your bike a lot and do the standard-recommended 80% charge to prolong pack life, you are not letting the pack balance the cells since balancing doesn't happen until around a 98%-ish charge level. So part of a smart charging regimen is to do a monthly 100% balance charge, where again you let the pack sit on the charger for a couple-three hours after it reaches full charge to let the internal process of balancing to happen. If you ride infrequently you can do this much less often.
• Draining a Li-NMC (commonly called li-ion) battery all the way down is bad for it. Don't do it unless you need to for a ride. The issue is called Depth of Discharge (DoD). I have a home solar generator with LiFePO4 cells inside where the manufacturer does recommend a complete drain-down of the pack ONCE after a 100% charge to help the Battery Management System calibrate the full charge range. But thats not an ebike battery and its a different battery chemistry.
• Storing a battery long term at 40-60% is recommended for Li-NMC.

None of the above is new news. There are plenty of opinions and they're all worth what you paid for them. Look to real sources for info and that includes not listening to your ebike sales guy who will be selling you a new battery if you screw up this one. S/he may believe what they are telling you is correct as opposed to an ulterior commercial motive, but don't bet your battery investment on their being right.

BU-808: How to Prolong Lithium-based Batteries

BU meta description needed...

batteryuniversity.com

How to make a lithium battery last, or…kill it, if you like.

We have written in the past about tips that will help your expensive lithium battery pack last as long as possible. This article will cover some additional information about what happens inside the…

www.electricbike.com

Are you killing your lithium batteries?

Lithium-ion batteries are expensive, and large battery packs such as those in everything from electric cars to electric motorcycles and...

electrek.co

I'm sorry but as far as I have read (know) the idea that the "battery balances" at full charge is internet bullshit that has been repeated so many times that it's become fact.... That is unless you have a balance BMS which the majority of us do not.
Even then it's even argued that the extra heat created by a Balance BMS is counter productive as well as cost prohibitive.
If your charger /BMS combo allow for additional charging after the green light comes on ( some do not) You're toping the cells off... That's it.
Topping off in my opinion is stressing the cells for very little gain.

The less you charge/discharge the better it is for your battery. I'm not suggesting that you leave yourself stranded for the sake of your battery but if you find yourself often returning home with battery to spare... lower your charge level accordingly.

 

[m@Robertson]

I'm sorry but as far as I have read (know) the idea that the "battery balances" at full charge is internet bullshit that has been repeated so many times that it's become fact.... That is unless you have a balance BMS which the majority of us do not.

Every pack I have ever bought has a balancing BMS. Not to have one is a sign of a crap battery pack. Maybe if you are out buying Liitokala or UPP packs on AliExpress, a balancing BMS isn't there, but not if you're buying quality from a reputable seller.

Now, in the RC world, balancing BMS' are in fact rare. But thats RC not ebike.

Even then it's even argued that the extra heat created by a Balance BMS is counter productive as well as cost prohibitive.

I can't imagine why. Frankly that contention sounds ridiculous. The balancing procedure is the teeniest of power trickles into a pack. You can watch it happen if you have a Satiator, or a simple watt meter attached to your charge line. Little blips every 10 seconds or so of 0.1 or 0.2a as things get shifted around inside the pack. The voltage water line dips down a teeny bit as part of the balancing, and the charger engages for no more than a half second to feed in just a teeny bit of power. The process repeats in a few seconds and if you have time on your hands, you can sit and watch the intervals lengthen between these blips until finally the charger either stops doing this at all, or the Satiator trips some sort of threshold and it shows 'charge complete' on screen.

Nothing in that process would generate any heat worth any level of concern.

If your charger /BMS combo allow for additional charging after the green light comes on ( some do not) You're toping the cells off... That's it.
Topping off in my opinion is stressing the cells for very little gain.

I have no experience with 'green light' chargers other than to know they tend to be bottom of the barrel in terms of quality. They're a black box in terms of the logic built into them, and not something I would ever use after having done so for the first year or so of having an ebike and never since.

I don't see how 'topping off' is an issue. I mean... you have cells that have a voltage level. A CC+CV mode charger will dribble in power at the end of the process at VERY low levels. half of one amp. 0.2 of an amp. Peanuts.

The less you charge/discharge the better it is for your battery. I'm not suggesting that you leave yourself stranded for the sake of your battery but if you find yourself often returning home with battery to spare... lower your charge level accordingly.

Yes, but subject to not draining the pack down low, since excessive depth of discharge is about as bad as charging to 100%. If you can charge to say 55v on a 52v pack and you drain it down to say 49v or 50v, there's no benefit to charging only to 54v or 53v next time. You're in the sweet spot already.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Every pack I have ever bought has a balancing BMS. Not to have one is a sign of a crap battery pack. Maybe if you are out buying Liitokala or UPP packs on AliExpress, a balancing BMS isn't there, but not if you're buying quality from a reputable seller.

I'm speaking about built in batteries on bikes like Aventon, Ride1Up, Biktrix and my Zen etc....

Curious.. do you have the spec sheet on your Battery/BMS?

Now, in the RC world, balancing BMS' are in fact rare. But thats RC not ebike.

I can't imagine why. Frankly that contention sounds ridiculous. The balancing procedure is the teeniest of power trickles into a pack. You can watch it happen if you have a Satiator, or a simple watt meter attached to your charge line. Little blips every 10 seconds or so of 0.1 or 0.2a as things get shifted around inside the pack. The voltage water line dips down a teeny bit as part of the balancing, and the charger engages for no more than a half second to feed in just a teeny bit of power. The process repeats in a few seconds and if you have time on your hands, you can sit and watch the intervals lengthen between these blips until finally the charger either stops doing this at all, or the Satiator trips some sort of threshold and it shows 'charge complete' on screen

I do have an input meter as well as using a bench top power supply.
I believe that is topping off.... Not balancing.

Nothing in that process would generate any heat worth any level of concern.

I have no experience with 'green light' chargers other than to know they tend to be bottom of the barrel in terms of quality. They're a black box in terms of the logic built into them, and not something I would ever use after having done so for the first year or so of having an ebike and never since.

I don't see how 'topping off' is an issue. I mean... you have cells that have a voltage level. A CC+CV mode charger will dribble in power at the end of the process at VERY low levels. half of one amp. 0.2 of an amp. Peanuts.

Yes, but subject to not draining the pack down low, since excessive depth of discharge is about as bad as charging to 100%. If you can charge to say 55v on a 52v pack and you drain it down to say 49v or 50v, there's no benefit to charging only to 54v or 53v next time. You're in the sweet spot already.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

I have a charger that my bike came with. It has a single LED and is a plastic brick. I monitor the amperage at the mains outlet. While the charger is plugged in, but not connected to my battery current sits at .033a and I have a green light. When I start charging it’s at 1.4~1.6a. This is when the LED is red. When the LED goes green again I see current of .111a. This is when I know the cells are balancing. Then I watch for the current to drop back to .033a.

Aren’t “topping off” and “balancing” the same thing?

 

[Gionnirocket]

I have a charger that my bike came with. It has a single LED and is a plastic brick. I monitor the amperage at the mains outlet. While the charger is plugged in, but not connected to my battery current sits at .033a and I have a green light. When I start charging it’s at 1.4~1.6a. This is when the LED is red. When the LED goes green again I see current of .111a. This is when I know the cells are balancing. Then I watch for the current to drop back to .033a.

Aren’t “topping off” and “balancing” the same thing?

No... my understanding is this. When current is put in or out the battery..it surges or sags respectively. If left alone it will settle lower or higher respectively. So on a charge it will reach termination voltage, 54.6v...and then settle lower once current drops. Then the charger will bring it back up to termination voltage again and again until it's settles in at the full termination voltage. Or if matched well, the charger will trickle in such a low current that the settling in is negligible.
If it's a quality battery with matched internal resistance between all the cells..no balancing is done or necessary.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

So on a charge it will reach termination voltage, 54.6v...and then settle lower once current drops.

Ahh. Maybe that’s why I always see 54.3v after charger indicates charging is complete.