How do I select a correct replacement motor controller?

[PCeBiker]

That comes with an 1T5 cable instead of an 1T4 cable, with the 5th being for lights.

The 1T5 cable is also longer and you'll probably have a lot of extra cable to roll up and stash somewhere, even with the shorter 1T4 cable.

 

[rotarypower101]

Yes, if you get the 3 wires for pedal sensor oriented correctly, then the controller allows you to adjust for the different signals that would come from the pedal sensor.
The pedal sensor pulses a signal as the magnets rotate past the hall sensor.
Sensors have different amounts of magnets on the rotating wheel, and you want the ebike to power up when the pedals are moved forward but not when you move to pedals backwards.

The KT controller allows for a signal from any pedal sensor to be used by adjusting the input settings on your KT display. (But you want the KT LCD 3 or newer to have that adjustability in the display.)
Or, you could replace the the pedal sensor with a standard KT pedal sensor and it will just plug right into the controller and work.
But, replacing the pedal sensor most likely involves removing the crank arm to get it off and you'll need a crank arm puller.


The throttle can be easily and cheaply replaced and will plug right into the KT controller so you don't have to cut and splice wires and connectors from the old throttle.

It looks like your brake switches have an SM plug but it's easy to cut and splice the two wires into the connectors on the 4T1 cable.



No, just a voltmeter to check the wires to get the orientation correct.
But you can probably just trust the color code.
Red is positive, black negative, and the third wire is signal,.. Usually.




Oops, I meant at the controller, not in the controller.



Being as your connectors won't plug into the standard SM version of the KT controller, then there is little advantage of using it other than having all the wires easily visible and identifiable.

Keep in mind that the 3 phase wires are ALWAYS matched to the 3 hal sensor wires.

Yellow with yellow
Green with green
And Blue with blue


Since the SM version of the KT controller isn't plug and play, then the waterproof plug version would be the easiest approach.

You just delete the old controller and the motor cable will just plug right in. (you may need an extension, as @harryS mentioned)

Then you've just got the PAS sensor, throttle, brake switches, and battery to connect.
The replacement display will just plug right in.


I think that finding an exact plug and play replacement controller will be difficult to find?
I wouldn't even know where to start looking?



No problem.
This is kinda fun.

Here's a high power motor extension cable for reference,..

View attachment 168976

https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0LlDSC

Having the motor connections being plug and play makes things a lot easier to install.

Or, you could replace the the pedal sensor with a standard KT pedal sensor and it will just plug right into the controller and work.
But, replacing the pedal sensor most likely involves removing the crank arm to get it off and you'll need a crank arm puller.

Ideally I would Really like to avoid that! If I can find a compatible controller that can utilize the Existing components, that would be prefered!

Is there some detail I need to know when selecting a controller to know that will work? Being compatible with the existing running gear?

Can I test or check the PAS sensor to help define what standard or protocol it uses, with the intention to avoid digging into the mechanical components, or having to change/tune components to operate?

If you know, how universal are the motor sensor wires? Do I need to make sure the pinout on that is in a specific sequence if the controller is not a "direct replacment", Iassume they would simply be in the ordered sequence as I have, but you never know with "proprietary standards"!

There are SO MANY factors I have no idea about, very tentative trying to adapt unless someone knew all those details and gave me the go ahead that it would be compatible, and all those ambiguous details can be answered.

 

[rotarypower101]

I do not splice wires except for dorman/3m/T&B/panduit/TEconn crimp terminals on the motor phase wires and battery wires. I use a screw terminal block for ring terminals, or connect .157" bullet connectors direct. Crimp connections made with a Klein or Ideal tool are reliable, as is the insulation on the US bullet connectors. The ****ese bullet connectors on the controllers, they require external tubing around them to not short to each other. I can still get controllers with the white rectangular blocks like post #28 and buy only those. I found a kit of those blocks and pins on ebay and solder the terminals on when necessary. The pins can be pushed out with a pick and re-arranged in any order. I ride in the rain and soldered splices out in never-never land are not reliable. Spliced wires on the frame could be yanked by my feet getting off, or by branches stacked on the bike lanes and sidewalks by homeowners. My harness is external since the electricity is a conversion of a pedal bike. Those white rectangular blocks are fine in the rain & snow at 48v. Sorry about the potting, that is a device to sell more controllers. Most of the controllers I've had the pcb slides out the end of the aluminum shell for repair. That is how I found out my first controller had no heat connection between the nfets and the pretty heat sink shell. The worst controller I had was a potted ASI from Lunabike, with pins on .5 mm spacing which shorted to each other in the rain and burnt that connector and the motor harness connector. Ride an ASI controller only in the Chilian Altacama desert where it has never rained. I had to go into the motor to replace the whole burnt harness for the hall effect sensors with the white blocks, which took 2 years to figure out how to get the case of the Mac off.
Don't know where pcebiker is finding those kt ads, certainly not on ebay. I've found the wiring of those round Juli connectors is rather random and avoid them totally. The last group of motors ($36 each) I bought the pins were intentionally made weird so nobody (but me) could use motors stolen from an Uber Jump. Motors had tamper proof screws & 7 sided nuts too, which I slotted removed & replaced. removed and replaced that Juli hall effect harness, too. I have a spare 1000 w DD motor in a wheel, which I abandoned due to the no power drag, so it is always ready to test controllers with. Just turn the bike upside down and install the working motor & wheel. If the phase order is wrong the wheel will roll backwards. If hall effect wires are wrong the motor will hum and not move. Or run for 10 seconds then quit.
Most of the scooter controllers have a "door switch" input which has to be given battery hot to make the controller move the motor. They also have a burglar alarm power connector which is always hot when the battery is plugged in. I run power from the burglar alarm connector to a toggle switch in a pill bottle, then back to the door switch input. That is the ignition switch, under my seat. The white block connector kit I got from ebay has 4 pin connectors of both sexes, too. Switch off, turning the throttle will not move the power wheel. The pill bottle strain relieves the wires, and provides a surface to hold the switch and screw it to an aluminum angle bracket. I once had a throttle which had a key switch from battery hot to a green wire, that could have been used to go to the door switch input of a scooter controller. When the ASI controller burnt that harness I lost the use of that throttle, which also had a useful voltmeter for the battery.
I determine PAS pickup, throttle input etc problems by keeping spares around. The 2018 ebikeling controller the brake wires stopped the motor by opening switches on the brake handles, but all more recent controllers the brake handles close a switch to cause the motor to stop.

Yeah and cable adaption I am 100% comfortable with, I have all the crimping tools, and solder anything you can put infront of my down to SM components, use heat melt shrink for items like this, which I assume I will be cutting connectors off of , and adhering to the newer standards...

I am just apprehensive as standardized color codes seem non existent...

And how these components communicate with the motor controller are completely unknown to me. Guessing I am just going to have to send it, but that's what I was looking to avoid be asking here.

Would Really like to find something that was straightforward as a replacement controller, Rather than a mystery to solve and patch together, then hope I have everything correct, and that the controller is compatible.

Even the Bafang motor I have been told. "that I have to have a controller explicitly for that type of motor" Im not sure if that's true, but its something I sure would like clarity on! And why someone would take the time to tell me if its not true?

 

[rotarypower101]

If you end up with a new controller, and it comes time to test the operation, DON'T Give It Full Throttle !!

That's how you burn out a hal sensor in the motor if it's not connected properly.

Just give it a bit of throttle to see if the motor starts spinning or if it just makes weird noises and hums or clunks or something.


When it comes time to test the controller, just set the new controller beside the ebike, plug in the motor cable, new throttle, and connect the battery to test it.
No need to connect the PAS sensor until you get the motor operating properly.

To explicitly say it, I am Hoping to restore all Original functionality, so the plan is not to get fancy at all, I just want it to work Exactly as it did before it let out the smoke.

 

[PCeBiker]

To explicitly say it, I am Hoping to restore all Original functionality, so the plan is not to get fancy at all, I just want it to work Exactly as it did before it let out the smoke.

I would suggest this SM 30 amp KT controller.
A square wave controller is cheaper than sinewave. (It's just a bit noisier)

https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0xXphA

Being as you are okay with connecting all the wires, you can reuse your entire motor cable and all the existing components except the display.

This display is similar to the original, but you can't adjust the input from the pedal sensor if it doesn't work.

This display will accept an input from any pedal sensor,..

And it plugs right into the controller and will work.


All that's left is connecting the throttle, pedal sensor, battery and brake switches.

You can plug in your old controller and check for voltage on your pedal sensor and throttle to find the positive, negative, and signal wires.

Brakes switches are easy, and you only need to get the polarity of the battery correct.

Even the Bafang motor I have been told. "that I have to have a controller explicitly for that type of motor" Im not sure if that's true, but its something I sure would like clarity on! And why someone would take the time to tell me if its not true?

It's a regular 750 Watt Bafang hub motor.
If your motor connector wires are the same colors as the controller that I posted, then I'm about 95% sure that the controller I've suggested will work by matching up all the wire colors.

Even if it is proprietary, all that normally means is they change the motor connector and lie about the specs.

I doubt that Breeze Pro would pay to do that and they just used off the shelf components.


I found one thread about the safecastle breeze,..

Breeze on Amazon

I 'm considering this 48v sold by SafeCastle. $1188 on Amazon. However, in the Safe Castle description on their website sometimes it's referred to as the "Breeze" and sometimes as a "Radrover" ! I emailed them a couple of days ago for clarification and have yet to receive a response. With all...

forums.electricbikereview.com

 

[PCeBiker]

If you run into problems setting up the pedal sensor or it's broken, you can just switch the controller to "Throttle Gears" instead of PAS modes.

It works exactly the same except you don't have to be pedaling.

There are 5 throttle gears instead of 5 PAS modes. You just use your throttle to activate it and pick a throttle gear for different levels of assist.

 

[indianajo]

Keep in mind that the 3 phase wires are ALWAYS matched to the 3 hal sensor wires.

Yellow with yellow
Green with green
And Blue with blue

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

 

[PCeBiker]

To explicitly say it, I am Hoping to restore all Original functionality, so the plan is not to get fancy at all, I just want it to work Exactly as it did before it let out the smoke.

Perhaps you could try to get in touch with Safeway directly and see if they have a Controller available or if they can provide any information about it.

 

[PCeBiker]

Even with my fully potted proprietary Das-Kit Controller with a reverse firing order, and an unmarked unknown hub motor with a proprietary motor connector, all the wires and the color code of the KT controller matched up and it worked.

All hub motors have the same basic wiring.
Three phase wires.
Three hal sensor wires.
Positive, Negative, and a speed sensor wire.

Some rare (usually very high power motors) don't have sensors, and a very rare few hub motors have a temperature sensor wire.

 

[harryS]

1. A 30A KT controller with the Z916 connector.

2. A Higo Z916 extension cable to allow the motor to reach the controller.

3. KT LCD8H color display

4. IT4 cable.

5. Brake levers wiith red WP connector

6. Thumb Throttle with WP connectoir

7,. KT pedal sensor with WP connector7.

Used to be, you could buy it all in a kit for $120, but that was for a 20A controller, Items 5-7 if you don't want to solder.

If you want to minimize cost. then buy a 30A controller w/o the waterproof connectors. Then you only need the controller and some spare JST connectors.

 

[PCeBiker]

^^^ What harryS said.

If you are more comfortable being a bike mechanic than an electrician then that is the way to go.
Everything is plug&play.

(you'll probably need a crank arm puller as well. There should be no other specialized tools.)

 

[rotarypower101]

I would suggest this SM 30 amp KT controller.
A square wave controller is cheaper than sinewave. (It's just a bit noisier)

View attachment 168997View attachment 168995View attachment 168996View attachment 168997

https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0xXphA

Being as you are okay with connecting all the wires, you can reuse your entire motor cable and all the existing components except the display.

This display is similar to the original, but you can't adjust the input from the pedal sensor if it doesn't work.

View attachment 168998


This display will accept an input from any pedal sensor,..

View attachment 168999

And it plugs right into the controller and will work.


All that's left is connecting the throttle, pedal sensor, battery and brake switches.

You can plug in your old controller and check for voltage on your pedal sensor and throttle to find the positive, negative, and signal wires.

Brakes switches are easy, and you only need to get the polarity of the battery correct.




It's a regular 750 Watt Bafang hub motor.
If your motor connector wires are the same colors as the controller that I posted, then I'm about 95% sure that the controller I've suggested will work by matching up all the wire colors.

Even if it is proprietary, all that normally means is they change the motor connector and lie about the specs.

I doubt that Breeze Pro would pay to do that and they just used off the shelf components.


I found one thread about the safecastle breeze,..

Breeze on Amazon

I 'm considering this 48v sold by SafeCastle. $1188 on Amazon. However, in the Safe Castle description on their website sometimes it's referred to as the "Breeze" and sometimes as a "Radrover" ! I emailed them a couple of days ago for clarification and have yet to receive a response. With all...

forums.electricbikereview.com

A square wave controller is cheaper than sinewave. (It's just a bit noisier)

Just out of curiosity, how does a sqare wave output VS true sinewave output effect anything the user feels or experiences? assuming it can be described? What are the pros/cons ?
I assume there is an efficiency factor mixed in there?

That looks like a more than reasonable solution! thank you for the link.

you can reuse your entire motor cable and all the existing components except the display.

This is just a question to understand, how do you guys know the display is/is not compatible with a controller?
What dictates that factor?

That was a topic I was searching on, and couldn't find anything to help me understand how to select a controller that Would be compatible with this existing display. That was a huge hangup I am just not clear on.

May I ask also, how reliable is the Aliexpress controller hardware? Is it robust enough to think once installed it should endure normal use? They dont have a high failure rate or avoided by this community possibly?

 

[rotarypower101]

1. A 30A KT controller with the Z916 connector.

2. A Higo Z916 extension cable to allow the motor to reach the controller.

3. KT LCD8H color display

4. IT4 cable.

5. Brake levers wiith red WP connector

6. Thumb Throttle with WP connectoir

7,. KT pedal sensor with WP connector7.

Used to be, you could buy it all in a kit for $120, but that was for a 20A controller, Items 5-7 if you don't want to solder.

If you want to minimize cost. then buy a 30A controller w/o the waterproof connectors. Then you only need the controller and some spare JST connectors.

Thank you for the detailed links.

May I ask you the same question about the displays compatibility?

How do you guys know which displays are compatible with which controllers?

Again just a question hoping to learn and understand, what makes the existing display on this "safecastle breeze" bike incompatible with any replacement controller?
It seems you guys know right off the existing display is a problem and needs to be replaced, but its ambiguous as to why, I have not been able to find any rational why that seems to be intrinsically known here?

When selecting a New controller, how do I match up a New compatible display, for instance on 2 completely different unrelated sites selling ebike equipment? How do I select a controller and know any display will be compatible with that controller?

Belaboring the question, but have not found anything that details that for someone completely unfamiliar with this hardware.

Thank you for taking the time to help recommend suitable setups and for the advice!

 

[rotarypower101]

^^^ What harryS said.

If you are more comfortable being a bike mechanic than an electrician then that is the way to go.
Everything is plug&play.

(you'll probably need a crank arm puller as well. There should be no other specialized tools.)

Very comfortable with any electrics, to reiterate, feel very confident with that part. Anything that needs to be soldered and spliced, I can handle.

The only issue is making sure the color coding is not deceiving or misleading.
Documentation is poor , so would like to be Overly cautious about how I proceed and what hardware is selected.

Dont want to make a further mess out of what I have , and feel like I am responsible to replace extra hardware for something I did incorrectly, being Entirely unfamiliar with this hardware, there is a lot of room to make a misjudgment or mistake from lack of understanding or assuming something.

Component selection that is fully compatible with the existing hardware is what I am hoping to get the most help on.

Really appreciate the enthusiastic help, can't say thank you enough to you guys spending time helping someone that doesn't know anything about this stuff and probably asking lots of silly questions and setting unrealistic expectations about what I am trying to do and why.

 

[PCeBiker]

Just out of curiosity, how does a sqare wave output VS true sinewave output effect anything the user feels or experiences? assuming it can be described? What are the pros/cons ?

I'm thinking of buying one of these and pimping my ride into a gas hybrid e-bike.
It'll strap right on to my rear rack.

It's built with a pure sinewave inverter.
Other inverters have a regular modulated sinewave.

A modulated sinewave is noisy and can damage sensitive electronics like TVs and computers.

I assume there is an efficiency factor mixed in there?

Yes, pure sinewave is about 80% efficient, and modulated sinewave can be over 95% efficient.

The same idea applies to controllers.
Basically, the noise is wasted as heat.

That 15% difference is dumped as heat and noise in either the controller or motor.

I'll let @harryS elaborate and offer his opinion on that.

That looks like a more than reasonable solution! thank you for the link.

The 30 amp sinewave is probably your best choice?

This is just a question to understand, how do you guys know the display is/is not compatible with a controller?
What dictates that factor?

All KT controllers are compatible with all KT displays, and vice versa.

That was a topic I was searching on, and couldn't find anything to help me understand how to select a controller that Would be compatible with this existing display. That was a huge hangup I am just not clear on.

You will need a KT display.
Your current display almost certainly will not work.
Just make sure that you get the SM display for the SM controller, or waterproof display for the waterproof controller.

Again just a question hoping to learn and understand, what makes the existing display on this "safecastle breeze" bike incompatible with any replacement controller?

I dunno?
Probably software?

It seems you guys know right off the existing display is a problem and needs to be replaced, but its ambiguous as to why, I have not been able to find any rational why that seems to be intrinsically known here?

When selecting a New controller, how do I match up a New compatible display, for instance on 2 completely different unrelated sites selling ebike equipment?

That's what I did.
I searched for the KT controller that I wanted at the best price, then bought the KT display that I wanted from different "store".
I went with the KT-LCD8H and the KT 25 amp sinewave controller. (waterproof)

How do I select a controller and know any display will be compatible with that controller?

You just pick matching connector types.

Belaboring the question, but have not found anything that details that for someone completely unfamiliar with this hardware.

You don't have to be familiar with the hardware.
All KT stuff works with all other KT stuff.
You just have to pick waterproof or SM.

Thank you for taking the time to help recommend suitable setups and for the advice!

You're welcome.

But you are now required to report back with what you end up doing and if it works out for you.


@harryS ,..
I'm hoping you will proof read my response to see if I made any mistakes or left something out.

 

[rotarypower101]

I'm thinking of buying one of these and pimping my ride into a gas hybrid e-bike.
It'll strap right on to my rear rack.

It's built with a pure sinewave inverter.
Other inverters have a regular modulated sinewave.

View attachment 169059

View attachment 169060

A modulated sinewave is noisy and can damage sensitive electronics.




Yes, pure sinewave is about 80% efficient, and modulated sinewave can be over 95% efficient.

The same idea applies to controllers.
Basically, the noise is wasted as heat.

That 15% difference is dumped as heat and noise in either the controller or motor.

I'll let @harryS elaborate and offer his opinion on that.




The 30 amp sinewave is probably your best choice?




All KT controllers are compatible with all KT displays, and vice versa.



You will need a KT display.
Your current display almost certainly will not work.
Just make sure that you get the SM display for the SM controller, or waterproof display for the waterproof controller.



I dunno?
Probably software?



That's what I did.
I searched for the KT controller that I wanted at the best price, then bought the KT display that I wanted from different "store".
I went with the KT-LCD8H and the KT 25 amp sinewave controller. (waterproof)



You just pick matching connector types.



You don't have to be familiar with the hardware.
All KT stuff works with all other KT stuff.
You just have to pick waterproof or SM.



You welcome.

But you are now required to report back with what you end up doing and if it works out for you.


@harryS ,..
I'm hoping you will proof read my response to see if I made any mistakes or left something out.

But you are now required to report back with what you end up doing and if it works out for you.

I will, once I have a few more details worked out.
I found a "local" ebike shop, and the guy seemed to get I would like to simply replace what is there restoring near as can be called original functionality back.

He also seemed fairly confident I could continue utilizing the original display...Not that it is great or special in any way, simply that the end user is "used to it" and will appreciate nothing changing other than the internal electronics she cannot see anyway.

Hopefully his confidence proves true and I can simply replace the motor controller, but if not I will order up those parts and start tearing into it!


Our snowboarding season has been terrible, and doesn't look to be improving soon, so plenty of time for side projects.

 

[PCeBiker]

He also seemed fairly confident I could continue utilizing the original display...Not that it is great or special in any way, simply that the end user is "used to it" and will appreciate nothing changing other than the internal electronics she cannot see anyway.

If the original display doesn't work for you, then you can get this KT display for your e-bike,..

It's virtually the same as the original display.

Chances are really good that it will plug in and work.

The fact that the original display isn't programmable means that the pedal sensor is probably a standard pedal sensor that will be accepted by the KT display and controller without the need for any programming.


I only needed to program my display/controller to get my speedometer reading accurately.
(I had to enter the wheel diameter, then fine tune it to get an accurate speedometer reading.)

Your ebike doesn't have a speedometer, so programing it most likely won't be necessary.