Hilly 10mile commute - suggestions?

[sd_tom]

So, I live about 10 miles from my job but have never even considered commuting by bike due to (1) not in shape and (2) the massive amount of hills. A month ago I started looking into ebikes. I was in Oregon visiting my brother over the weekend where we took the opportunity to rent a couple bikes. That's when i realized how much different bikes can feel. This was an iZip E3 Zuma (350watt,48volt) and a Raleigh Venture IE (Bosch Active, 250watt, 36volts). The Raleigh/Bosch was definitely not enough help on the hills while the iZip felt pretty good overall but more power and a throttle (class 3) might be better. Anyways, this got me somewhat convinced I need to be able to rent a bike and actually try the commute out on a weekend to see how it goes. Unfortunately the pool of local rental commuter bikes is slim but Trek does have the super commuter, though that's out of my price range I think ultimately (would like to stay under 3k).

Either way, after experiencing the difference between the two bikes above, there's no way I'm buying a site unseen / online only bike without riding it first.

My locally available brands are:
Haibikes,Bulls,Riese & Muller,Specialized,Tern,Blix,izip,wallerang,raleigh,cube,gazelle, easy motion, benno, focus, kalkhoff, magnum, motiv, stromer, yamaha, magnum, Trek, cannondale, faraday, electra, civia, orbea, giant,yuba, breezer, fuji, pedego, juiced(they are in san diego)

And, I guess I'm also thinking DIY route. Looks about $1377 for a BBSHD kit to convert my 2009 Giant Cypress DX (700cc, upright stance) which I used for about 2 years (back when i lived in apartment near beach) pretty heavily but then has been sitting in the garage since. That gets me 1000 watts/52volts.. seems hard to beat that?

I'm also rather short (5'6", 29" inseam, 180lbs) and did i mention out of shape? So, the hope I could start with lots of help and wean back over time.

 

[rich c]

Are you a pretty good bike mechanic? Understand electrical troubleshooting? Because when you go it on your own, you have to be able to troubleshoot and figure out what isn't working. At 1000w and 52 volts, you are getting into electric scooter territory. Doesn't the Giant Cypress DX have rim brakes? That would be a horrible situation with that much power.

 

[sd_tom]

yeah Cypress has linear pull brakes, that's definately a down side.

the 1000watts/52v is just the max available and is $1400ish. in looking at reviews seems it might be better to get the bbshd regardless and software limit it to extend the life. im extremely comfortable with electrical (my garage is full of oscilloscopes and circuit board projects). a total newb at bicycle mechanics. was hoping youtube would help with that.

in trying to configure a search around my parameters the magnum metro+ comes up a bit, does it sound to you all like a fit for my commute? or do i want to find a mid drive ?

 

[highpockets]

Just wanted to say, yes, you can do this. I'm doing a 42 mile round trip commute in SW Virginia. This was just out of my me-bike range. E-bike made it possible. I definitely recommend a class 3. You can always go slower if you want. FWIW, I got a 650 watt rear hub with a 48v battery. It gets the job done but I have to say that there are times I would like to have more power. Whatever you get, just do it. It's pretty exciting at first and will definitely provide you with a workout.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I alternate between Magnum Metro+ and my BBSHD (preinstalled from Luna), every time I go out for a ride.

If you are out of shape I strongly recommend the Metro+ since it has better get up and go and effortlessly zips along on crowded streets. It is also easier to high cadence which is a good cardio workout, without putting too much stress on your knees.

The BBSHD can also zip easily if you are in the right gear and throttle it down, but is less aggressive at low to medium PAS levels. The BBSHD's strong point over the Metro+ is the top speed (with 48 teeth chain ring). I can reach 33 mph on a slight downhill on medium PAS.

Considering the fact that battery consumption increase exponentially above 22 mph. I tend to cruise between 21-22 mph only, regardless of which ebike I use. Besides, I don't feel safe riding above 22 mph on a less than ideal road surface plus the presence other people on the pathway.

The Metro+ with German hub motor is rated at 90 NM which is at the high end in the hub motor industry (I don't see other factory hub drives having more than 90 NM). It is the better climber among hub drives.

 

[sd_tom]

first, thanks for feedback !

The BBSHD can also zip easily if you are in the right gear and throttle it down, but is less aggressive at low to medium PAS levels. The BBSHD's strong point over the Metro+ is the top speed (with 48 teeth chain ring). I can reach 33 mph on a slight downhill on medium PAS.
.

i thought, perhaps wrongly, one of the pluses of the bafang stuff was you could reprogram the pedal assist levels to your tastes. do you think this is more a function of mid drive vs hub as far as the metro plus side?

 

[Feliz]

I alternate between Magnum Metro+ and my BBSHD (preassembled from Luna), every time I go out for a ride.

If you are out of shape I strongly recommend the Metro+ since it has better get up and go and effortlessly zips along on crowded streets. It is also easier to high cadence which is a good cardio workout, without putting too much stress on your knees.

The BBSHD can also zip easily if you are in the right gear and throttle it down, but is less aggressive at low to medium PAS levels. The BBSHD's strong point over the Metro+ is the top speed (with 48 teeth chain ring). I can reach 33 mph on a slight downhill on medium PAS.

Considering the fact that battery consumption increase exponentially above 22 mph. I tend to cruise between 21-22 mph only, regardless of which ebike I use. Besides, I don't feel safe riding above 22 mph on a less than ideal road surface plus the presence other people on the pathway.

The Metro+ with German hub motor is rated at 90 NM which is at the high end in the hub motor industry (I don't see other factory hub drives having more than 90 NM). It is the better climber among hub drives.

The eProdigy hub drive is 115 NM I believe, it's their own brand designed by the owner who I believe is an electrical engineer. I don't own one but I'm thinking about it. Mid drive, carbon belt, and Nuvinci hub.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

first, thanks for feedback !



i thought, perhaps wrongly, one of the pluses of the bafang stuff was you could reprogram the pedal assist levels to your tastes. do you think this is more a function of mid drive vs hub as far as the metro plus side?

It's the way the controllers are designed. The Metro+ controller is designed to use voltage control (max power ramp up at low speed until target speed is attained). This is more applicable to hub drives.

The BBSHD's controller design uses amperage control which provide steady power regardless of speed.

At low to medium PAS (which is my normal use, unless I want to sacrifice battery range), the hub drive feels more nimble and light. Stop and go is a breeze, slowing down and accelerating back to speed in heavy traffic is effortless. In the BBSHD, I have to be in the correct gearing and I have to push the throttle to get the same "feel".

"The eProdigy hub drive is 115 NM I believe, it's their own brand designed by the owner who I believe is an electrical engineer. I don't own one but I'm thinking about it. Mid drive, carbon belt, and Nuvinci hub. "

That's interesting, I looked all over the internet and could not find the hub motor that you talked about. However, eprodigy uses an out-runner design motor (design commonly used on hub drives) for their mid drive motor. And their mid drive produces 120 NM. In comparison, BBSHD is rated at 160 NM in Bafang's official website.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[Feliz]

You're correct, sorry. Thanks for educating me. That's what I get for taking my iPad to bed with me and texting when I should be sleeping.

 

[Big Tom]

Get a kit and modify your bike. The kits are starting to come with hubs that work with cassettes. If your existing Giant has 7 speed rear I would start with a geared 500W 48 V setup. I've used a 36V 500W GEARED hub that does the trick in most cases and it costs under $400 with Chinese battery. 48V gives more speed/torque. Geared hubs will allow you to pedal if you run out of juice and typically get better mileage from the battery. The kits are plug and ride, all you need to do is be able to use the internet for instructions
and have the skills to remove a bike tire.

 

[sd_tom]

Thanks for the continued feedback. Went to a couple of ebike local stores today and they were universally anti-hub motor for what I wanted to do (described commute). While I sit and ponder that, my wife and i are going to rent some haibike hard tail eMTB with 350watt bosch cx mid drives tomorrow. I'm going to try the commute with it to see how that power level feels. He also had a used (only 60 mile) 2018 Bulls Lacuba 45 (brose motor) it sounded he might be able to get close to my 3k budget though we didn't talk hard numbers.. def looked like a nice bike, though it doesn't have a throttle. If there's any energy left after all that, there's another ebike shop in town with the metro+ ; will be interesting what they say about it as it's a hub motor. I did also contact Juiced, they say they don't have a local showroom but that if i wanted to pre arrange something i could come by and borrow a cross current S for a test ride if i wanted.

in the mean time i'm going to get the existing Giant cleaned up just to see how that feels again and whether i'd want to go 20+mph on it.

The eProdigy hub drive is 115 NM I believe, it's their own brand designed by the owner who I believe is an electrical engineer. I don't own one but I'm thinking about it. Mid drive, carbon belt, and Nuvinci hub

those prodigy's look like a lot of bang for the buck. looks like i'd have to go to los angeles to try one out.. *cringes* doable though

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just a couple of practical questions.

1. Can you use google maps to tell us exactly how much elevation gain there will be coming and going to work? You can use the directions function and choose bicycle mode to get elevation gain and loss and an elevation profile as well.
2. How steep are the hills?
3. How are the hills distributed. Is it a constant up-and-down but relatively short hills or is it one giant hill and the rest of the way pretty flat?

If you are talking less than 1000 feet of elevation gain and relatively gentle grades (e.g. less than 250 feet per mile) and mostly short hills pretty much any e-bike will work fine.

On the average as the elevation gain gets greater, and the hills steeper and longer I'd recommend a high-torque mid-drive system and a pretty wide gear range, either a really spiffy 1x11 or a decent internally geared hub. Also, if you have to go down those steep hills as well I'd recommend really good disk brakes with generously sized rotors.

Also, keep in mind that a class 3 bike isn't necessarily going to be a better hill climber. If your route is truly hilly you might get there faster and/or with less effort with a good class 1 or class 2 bike.

 

[sd_tom]

if you look at my first post I attached the elevation profile (small thumbnail) ; if you can't see it I will attach again. i had bikeroll configured for
* -20 to +4% grade - blue
* 4% to 11% grade - orange
* >11% - red

the reverse commute I didn't attach but get the idea

found out how to share the bikeroll link: http://bit.ly/2E4XUfu

 

[Mr. Coffee]

if you look at my first post I attached the elevation profile (small thumbnail) ; if you can't see it I will attach again. i had bikeroll configured for
* -20 to +4% grade - blue
* 4% to 11% grade - orange
* >11% - red

the reverse commute I didn't attach but get the idea

My apologies I didn't see that information.

I think you'd be pretty happy with a high-torque mid-drive like the Bosch Performance CX. A Rohloff hub is probably overkill (you can climb trees with a Rohloff and a Performance CX) but a NuVinci hub would probably be pretty sweet. You could probably even get away with a 1x7, but a 1x11 would be nicer.

 

[sd_tom]

Ok my wife and I tried some bikes out on Sunday and last night learning a bit more about what I want; sadly that might be a moped

I came up with a simulated route we could take rented bikes next to the bike shop that roughly approximates my commute. It's a bit harder on the bike as it's a single big hill vs up/down/up/down which might let things cool off a bit between hills. What we were able to rent for a long ~1 hr trek like that on Sunday was a Haibike Cross 4.0 with Bosch Performance CX. The result, it made what would be an impossible feat for myself on a regular bike very doable. But.. It was still a bit of work to do it, i.e., felt it a bit. After we returned those, the bike guys let us tool around on the street with a few other motors. All in all tried out:

• haibike cross 4.0 (2017?) - Bosch Performance CX
• Raleigh Redux IE - Brose Speeed
• haibike allmtn 6.0 - Yamaha PWX (this isn't a commuter but it's what they had handy with this motor)

None of these felt as powerful as that original iZip Zuma that we tried. Yamaha was getting close. So, anyways, we left there and went over to the Magnum dealer in town. His shop was nice that it is next to a half mile long hill that varies between 5% and 12% grade. So, while it wouldn't test the commute it at least tested out our first hub motor. So my wife got a Magnum Metro and I got the Metro Plus to head up this hill. Our review there was "eh, ok". I did come to find I did like having a throttle, though it is pretty useless on this hill. It felt more work than any of the mid drives at the first place.

And both shops were very pro mid drive for this task like everybody else.

Anyway, since I did like the throttle I started filtering on this site for bikes with throttle and the Pedego bikes started bubbling up and there'd 3 dealers in town for those. So, last night we headed over to the Pedego place wanting to look at the two mid-drives they had there (the conveyor, which doesn't actually have a throttle , and the city commuter mid-drive). Pedego is by in large a hub drive place. When we came in asking about the only two mid-drives they carried they suggested we at least give their hub drives a spin around the block. Luckily, being san diego, there are also steep/small hills around. Anyways, we rode two of the regular City Commuters around (his rental fleet) and those were very much comparable to the original iZip mid drive! And the throttle was super fun. We also tried their low end mountain bike (ridge rider) and that was fun as well. both seemed to do these hills fine. Anyways, that threw a whole wrench into the "hub drives are out" search space for me. But, this coming weekend I plan on renting the bike and doing the same 'simulated commute' hill as we did last Sunday (the shops are in the same neighborhood). This will be a good test.. if the pedego bike doesn't overheat or anything , hub drives are back on the table. In the end though, Pedego's are more expensive than we were looking at though.

Now one interesting thing was that Pedego Ridge Rider mountain bike .. the Pedal Assist Levels 1-4 had torque sensing on, and 5 turned torque sensing off. In playing with that a bit, I'm realizing what the real difference between that original iZip and all the Bosch/Brose bikes we tried is that it didn't have torque sensing. Basically, I've come to the conclusion I don't like torque sensing.. it doesn't give enough of a boost for what I'm looking at (read also: I like the throttle). Which, is good from a price point view as well. Now, these pedego hub bikes, for the few that have torque sensing.. all had the ability to shut that off and be cadence only. Do the Bosch and Brose have that ability normally?

Anyway, very productive research into likes/dislikes and refocusing on my search parameters.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

You mentioned Izip Zuma, that you like how it gets up and go. Why don't you purchase the Izip Zuma? It's battery is more than enough for the 10 mile commute. You just have to bring a charger at work to top up the battery before coming back home.

 

[sd_tom]

yeah that is true, but more beach cruiser. i am trying to see if anyone in town has an izip Dash or raleigh cadent... which is the exact same powertrain as the Zuma but in a more city bike format.. and can add a throttle. so if i can get on one of those and it is how i remember now that I've tried others then that may very well be a good fit.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

yeah that is true, but more beach cruiser. i am trying to see if anyone in town has an izip Dash or raleigh cadent... which is the exact same powertrain as the Zuma but in a more city bike format.. and can add a throttle. so if i can get on one of those and it is how i remember now that I've tried others then that may very well be a good fit.

What don't you like about the beach cruiser setup? You can always change the bike fit to suit your preference such as using a different handle bar, different size stem, or adding a stem riser. You can use your old but comfortable non electric bike (if you have one) as your reference. Measure seat height, handle grip height and angle, and the distance between the seat and the handle grip. You then transfer that measurement to your ebike.

 

[highpockets]

SD_TOM. You initially mentioned (1) not in shape. That moped is not going to help much with that! FWIW, I also have a Burgman. It has did a lot of setting in the garage this year. I know others have chimed in on specific bikes. I have a CCS. It is rear hub. Map my ride says my 21 mile commute has a 2500 foot elevation gain. You will feel it. Get the moped for those 'I'm feeling lazy' or 'man I overslept' days. Then try to let it set in the garage as much as possible.

 

[sd_tom]

how do you like the CCS overall? One benefit of san diego is that I can arrange to go over there sometime and try something out. The CCX looks like it's going to be a beast, and i watched a video where he showed one of the settings is to turn off the torque sensor and go to the cadence only (plus the whole cruise control thing looks cool).

The LBS store got back to me that they can get me a izip Dash or raleigh cadent (same bike) with the throttle add on for a little less than the $2200 MSRP. Def cheaper than the pedegos.