Help in this sea of choices

[asagura]

Hi all, I'm new to the ebike scene and looking to get one instead of a car. I'm located in Denmark, so we have plenty of bicycle lanes and no hills.
I have not tested any but I plan to. I currently own a road bike which I've used for the past 4 years but I don't use it to get to work.
A friend of mine owns a Riese and Muller ebike which I'll give a test ride.

Main use of the bike would be for traveling to work, gym and home. So that comes out to maybe around 50km a day. So I'd like something that is fast and gets me there quickly & back (Class 3 maybe?).
I don't have a budget, I don't mind something expensive but only if it makes sense.

Wants:

• Comfort while riding long distance (20km is long to me)
• Ability to have a back or front rack. So I can put my bag(s) on it
• Good quality as the weather in denmark is crap, so the bike would be against the elements

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Asagura: The Danish law certainly allows so-called L1e-B type, which technically is a moped that needs to be registered, insured; you need to carry a driving license and of course wear a cycling helmet. You are not allowed to ride bike lanes/path but only roads with traffic. Yes, you can achieve up to 45 km/h with an L1e-B. Having said all above, L1e-B class e-bikes are the most expensive in the segment, because these are equipped with the best safety equipment, and come with EU Certificate of Conformity. No Class 3 or Class 1 in Europe: either L1e-B S-Pedelec or regular 25 km/h e-bike that is just a bicycle.

To really get the benefit of riding e-bike in Denmark, you should look to a 25 km/h regular e-bike. Practical average speed thus achieved will be 21 km/h, which is good. 50 km trip is nothing for a good mid-drive motor e-bike. You wouldn't even feel a 20 km ride segment!

Riese & Muller e-bikes -- while it is a respected brand -- are rather heavy, very expensive, and you would need to wait many months before it is delivered to you.
Practically, any e-bike of respected brand equipped with Bosch, Specialized/Brose, Giant/Yamaha or Shimano mid-motor will be good. The devil is in the detail.

I am a personal fan of Specialized Turbo e-bikes that are equipped with silent motor and perfect electronics. Not that you would have to go for a Spesh Vado or Como. I just like these e-bikes and ride a Vado; my female friend has bought a Como for comfort.

It is vital that you buy from a brand store that is good and near to you. Having a Local Bike Store around: people who will back you up, service your e-bike and honour the warranty is the most important of all.

And a demo ride.
---------------
I'm a Pole who knows Europe and especially Nordic Countries a lot. Been to Copenhagen last August, rode a Donkey Republic shared bike but I have been a frequent visitor to Denmark since 1995, for business and pleasure.

P.S. What part of Denmark are you in?
---------------
A little bit more: Specialized Turbo Vado is fully equipped and well protected against elements. 5000 km ridden in the first year, all kind of weather, including pouring rain and -14 C on another ride. The general answer of our respected @Alaskan below is good. He has, for instance turned your attention to Nikolai Bikes of Germany. There are many options. Trek makes excellent e-bikes in the upper segment (like, Allant+ 9.9S or Powerfly 9 FS Equipped). Moustache deliver full suspension equipped e-bikes, too. (I drone on Specialized because I love their silent, powerful motors and full smartphone connectivity).

 

[Alaskan]

Much of the advice you get on forums is not in your interest. Most people are trying to justify their own choices by urging you to buy what they bought. Whatever you do, don't listen to anyone who tells you not to listen to the advice of others...Hah, I guess that eliminates me

The best thing you can do is be as precise as you can about how often and under what conditions you think you are going to ride. This will help a knowledgeable dealer guide you to a bike that will serve you best.

If you are like most of us you will ride your ebike more often and further than you ever imagined possible. Spending more money on a better built, safer, more reliable bike will be one of the best decisions you ever made. And I suspect I am not alone in that once I got going with my first ebike, I discovered latent capabilities within myself that lead down the road to longer. more athletic, endurance riding, something that never occurred to me going into it. Buying a better, more versatile bike at first kept me riding longer till I could afford the kind of bike that I eventually learned would be right for me. That process took over a year.

Add a grain of salt to the advice you get here. Some of it can be quite good and well informed but there are occasionally shills hiding in the corners, promoting their new brand. And then there is the fact that individuals riders often exhibit confirmation bias in their comments just wanting to give them affirmation for their choices.

Do it your self/retrofit guys can't imagine why someone would spend good money on a manufactured bike from the ground up ebike. Fans of low priced, Chinese made, hub motor bikes would not be caught dead on center drive bikes. Fans of German made equipment really don't hardly bother looking at bikes from other countries. Some people will never even look at a bike without a throttle, while other would never have a bike with one. fans of a particular brand will insist the one they chose is the only one to buy.

The most common comment I have heard from new ebike owners is almost always something like: "I never imagined I would be riding a bike this often or this far" Buying a cheaper, mass produced bike may or may not give you the same quality of "whoopee!!" experience that boosts you right into an enthusiastic embrace of ebiking.

All too often people who buy lesser bikes seem to arrive at regrets sooner because the bike's inherent limitations just never quite enabled it to do what they want. Personally I ended up spending way more than I initially thought I would or should. Given how much time I now spend on my bike, something I never could have imagined, I am glad I spent what I did and got a bike I can count on, that enhances my enjoyment every time I ride it.

As a primary vehicle ,Riese & Muller makes one of the best, most reliable bikes you can buy, Very solid, with upper tier components and more thoroughly accessorized than most. it sounds like you can afford them. You just have to be willing to wait. R&M are one of several good choices. Nicolai in Germany make several very nice bikes as does Rennstahl who make their own more traditional frames and offer a high degree of customization.

My advice: Make an honest assessment as to how you will be riding, road or trails, easy grades or mountain trails, commuting, exercise/fitness or touring. Take your time but don't get bogged down in research paralysis. Test ride lots of bikes until you find the one that puts the biggest grin on your face and the people selling it you like the best. Then, if you can possibly afford it, pay more than you first thought you were willing to spend. The pain of paying out some more money wears off quickly. The joy of riding a bike that really suits you will endure long into the future every time you saddle up.

 

[AHicks]

There's also the mind set that recognizes what a huge jump/commitment the first e-bike requires when purchasing. It's MUCH easier to spend way more money on the second bike, after the first bike teaches you enough to make a much more educated decision. After riding that first bike for a bit, you also know for sure that the e-bike plan works, or doesn't work.

This in mind, it might be a good idea to focus on an inexpensive bike with good resale value. One you can get out of after riding for a while without taking a huge hit. The RAD bikes come to mind here stateside. You may have something similar there. Ride that for a bit, and even if it's not the perfect bike, you'll be much more prepared to do whatever it takes the second time around - if there is one.

 

[Marci jo]

Asagura, wow no budget. Whoo hoo!
My opinions are simple. Test ride as much as possible. Trust your instincts.
Alaskan makes a great point. Expect to ride more than you thought you would. Mainly because ebikes are so freaking FUN.

 

[indianajo]

Gazelle is brand of bikes "and assembled in the Netherlands and specifically designed to withstand salty and wet environments. " to quote from the Ultimate T10 review. They are mid drive. I don't drive mid-drive because I don't need help when the wind is not 25 mph in my face. Shimano Yamaha & Brose mid drives do allow one to pedal unpowered without drag. The others you spin the motor with your feet.
Personally I think that people that puff Rad bikes need to read the "known problems " thread under the brand, with the 30+ complaints about loose spokes. Also this about a fracturing rim: https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/need-new-rim.41413/ Rad will be glad to ship you one replacement of the cheap scrap metal they build their bikes with, 1 spoke at a time for a lady in Scotland who stretched four in four trips.
I ride a cheap hub motor bike, and I like not ****ing with the chain except every 2 1/2 years, 5000 miles. I oil it biweekly, along with all the other moving steel parts. I like that when I wore out the first $221 motor @ 4500 miles, I had it replaced in 2 afternoons without pushing it 7 miles over to the bike shop. Would have been one afternoon had I not had to change the controller mount. No, my Mommy won't come pick me up after a failure, she's dead. I pedaled the worn out motor home 30 miles, no drag. The unpowered bike itself was not cheap, and those SRAM shifters & cables, the real steel spokes, the tektro cable pull brakes, don't need constant adjustments the way my previous kiddie quality Diamondback & Pacific MTB's did. Amazing the difference between real steel cables and the scrap **** the cheap bikes come with.
Happy shopping.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I just want to point out that choices of e-bikes in Denmark and United States are somewhat different It is not without the reason there is a class described as "Euro e-bikes" in these Forums. Although Rad Power Bikes are available in Europe, they don't quite belong to that notion, especially in the context of R&M e-bikes mentioned by the Original Poster.

I should add Denmark and the Netherlands are "cycling countries" with unbelievably good bike infrastructure and culture, and with relatively short distances to be covered, mostly on the flat.

Nyhavn, Copenhagen, Denmark. 4:43 p.m on August 25th 2020. I have to see a similar photo from America yet

 

[TS25]

Asagura: The Danish law certainly allows so-called L1e-B type, which technically is a moped that needs to be registered, insured; you need to carry a driving license and of course wear a cycling helmet. You are not allowed to ride bike lanes/path but only roads with traffic. Yes, you can achieve up to 45 km/h with an L1e-B. ...

To really get the benefit of riding e-bike in Denmark, you should look to a 25 km/h regular e-bike. Practical average speed thus achieved will be 21 km/h, which is good. 50 km trip is nothing for a good mid-drive motor e-bike. You wouldn't even feel a 20 km ride segment!

Not quite.

My dansk is a bit rusty but you don't need a driving licence in Danmark for S-pedelecs if you are 18+ years old, and you are allowed to use bike lanes. See (as a frequent DK-visitor you might be able to read dansk ):

Hvad er en speed pedelec?

En speed pedelec ligner en almindelig el-cykel, men kan køre meget hurtigere. Den må give motorhjælp op til 45 km/t, når du træder pedalerne.

www.sikkertrafik.dk

So a S-ped would be my choice in DK heading for 50+ km a day.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

you don't need a driving licence in Danmark for S-pedelecs if you are 18+ years old

As I love the European Union, differences between country's laws make me stunned
And yes, I can read dansk
P.S. I can see you can ride bike paths on S-Pedelec in Denmark. The German and Poles could learn a little....

 

[TS25]

And yes, I can read dansk
P.S. I can see you can ride bike paths on S-Pedelec in Denmark. The German and Poles could learn a little....

So you've read that you're even obliged to use bike-lanes (which are 1a in DK) with a S-ped in DK.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So you've read that you're even obliged to use bike-lanes (which are 1a in DK) with a S-ped in DK.

Genau

 

[TS25]

Genau

OK, I see you bringing your Vado 5 for our biketour in DK

 

[Stefan Mikes]

OK, I see you bringing your Vado 5 for our biketour in DK

I don't think that would be not possible before I bought a better car; and I don't plan it
Although in better times (pre-covid) the Danish camping system used to be perfect.

In Northern Jutland, many years ago.

 

[TS25]

I don't think that would be not possible before I bought a better car; and I don't plan it

No excuses, I'm working on the route already.
And if I can dig out my old tent you could have it and come by bike - it's just a few 100milers for you

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No excuses, I'm working on the route already.
And if I can dig out my old tent you could have it and come by bike - it's just a few 100milers for you

I'd like to make a witty answer but don't you think we're derailing this thread?

 

[asagura]

Asagura: The Danish law certainly allows so-called L1e-B type, which technically is a moped that needs to be registered, insured; you need to carry a driving license and of course wear a cycling helmet. You are not allowed to ride bike lanes/path but only roads with traffic. Yes, you can achieve up to 45 km/h with an L1e-B. Having said all above, L1e-B class e-bikes are the most expensive in the segment, because these are equipped with the best safety equipment, and come with EU Certificate of Conformity. No Class 3 or Class 1 in Europe: either L1e-B S-Pedelec or regular 25 km/h e-bike that is just a bicycle.

To really get the benefit of riding e-bike in Denmark, you should look to a 25 km/h regular e-bike. Practical average speed thus achieved will be 21 km/h, which is good. 50 km trip is nothing for a good mid-drive motor e-bike. You wouldn't even feel a 20 km ride segment!

Riese & Muller e-bikes -- while it is a respected brand -- are rather heavy, very expensive, and you would need to wait many months before it is delivered to you.
Practically, any e-bike of respected brand equipped with Bosch, Specialized/Brose, Giant/Yamaha or Shimano mid-motor will be good. The devil is in the detail.

I am a personal fan of Specialized Turbo e-bikes that are equipped with silent motor and perfect electronics. Not that you would have to go for a Spesh Vado or Como. I just like these e-bikes and ride a Vado; my female friend has bought a Como for comfort.

It is vital that you buy from a brand store that is good and near to you. Having a Local Bike Store around: people who will back you up, service your e-bike and honour the warranty is the most important of all.

And a demo ride.
---------------
I'm a Pole who knows Europe and especially Nordic Countries a lot. Been to Copenhagen last August, rode a Donkey Republic shared bike but I have been a frequent visitor to Denmark since 1995, for business and pleasure.

P.S. What part of Denmark are you in?
---------------
A little bit more: Specialized Turbo Vado is fully equipped and well protected against elements. 5000 km ridden in the first year, all kind of weather, including pouring rain and -14 C on another ride. The general answer of our respected @Alaskan below is good. He has, for instance turned your attention to Nikolai Bikes of Germany. There are many options. Trek makes excellent e-bikes in the upper segment (like, Allant+ 9.9S or Powerfly 9 FS Equipped). Moustache deliver full suspension equipped e-bikes, too. (I drone on Specialized because I love their silent, powerful motors and full smartphone connectivity).

Thank you for the great info. Like TS25 pointed out, speed pedelecs do not require a license Which is great but that's of course if I actually should one of those.
Ah, didn't know about the wait time for Riese & Muller.

I'm in Copenhagen, but in general Denmark is flat So I shouldn't need anything that needs to actually power me uphill. And another detail is that I'm super light, only 50kg.

I think I've seen a few bike shops carrying Specialized and Trek bikes. Will have to go to them and see if they have the ebikes to test them.

 

[asagura]

Asagura, wow no budget. Whoo hoo!
My opinions are simple. Test ride as much as possible. Trust your instincts.
Alaskan makes a great point. Expect to ride more than you thought you would. Mainly because ebikes are so freaking FUN.

Haha yes, I'm in a fortunate enough position that I do not need to limit myself and every option is a possibility.
I plan to test ride as much as I can like you and the others have mentioned. Just thought here would be a great start so I can avoid any pitfalls. Heard of some LBS around me that just try to sell and not care about their customers after, so having a basic idea of what to look for is already great.

 

[asagura]

Much of the advice you get on forums is not in your interest. Most people are trying to justify their own choices by urging you to buy what they bought. Whatever you do, don't listen to anyone who tells you not to listen to the advice of others...Hah, I guess that eliminates me

The best thing you can do is be as precise as you can about how often and under what conditions you think you are going to ride. This will help a knowledgeable dealer guide you to a bike that will serve you best.

If you are like most of us you will ride your ebike more often and further than you ever imagined possible. Spending more money on a better built, safer, more reliable bike will be one of the best decisions you ever made. And I suspect I am not alone in that once I got going with my first ebike, I discovered latent capabilities within myself that lead down the road to longer. more athletic, endurance riding, something that never occurred to me going into it. Buying a better, more versatile bike at first kept me riding longer till I could afford the kind of bike that I eventually learned would be right for me. That process took over a year.

Add a grain of salt to the advice you get here. Some of it can be quite good and well informed but there are occasionally shills hiding in the corners, promoting their new brand. And then there is the fact that individuals riders often exhibit confirmation bias in their comments just wanting to give them affirmation for their choices.

Do it your self/retrofit guys can't imagine why someone would spend good money on a manufactured bike from the ground up ebike. Fans of low priced, Chinese made, hub motor bikes would not be caught dead on center drive bikes. Fans of German made equipment really don't hardly bother looking at bikes from other countries. Some people will never even look at a bike without a throttle, while other would never have a bike with one. fans of a particular brand will insist the one they chose is the only one to buy.

The most common comment I have heard from new ebike owners is almost always something like: "I never imagined I would be riding a bike this often or this far" Buying a cheaper, mass produced bike may or may not give you the same quality of "whoopee!!" experience that boosts you right into an enthusiastic embrace of ebiking.

All too often people who buy lesser bikes seem to arrive at regrets sooner because the bike's inherent limitations just never quite enabled it to do what they want. Personally I ended up spending way more than I initially thought I would or should. Given how much time I now spend on my bike, something I never could have imagined, I am glad I spent what I did and got a bike I can count on, that enhances my enjoyment every time I ride it.

As a primary vehicle ,Riese & Muller makes one of the best, most reliable bikes you can buy, Very solid, with upper tier components and more thoroughly accessorized than most. it sounds like you can afford them. You just have to be willing to wait. R&M are one of several good choices. Nicolai in Germany make several very nice bikes as does Rennstahl who make their own more traditional frames and offer a high degree of customization.

My advice: Make an honest assessment as to how you will be riding, road or trails, easy grades or mountain trails, commuting, exercise/fitness or touring. Take your time but don't get bogged down in research paralysis. Test ride lots of bikes until you find the one that puts the biggest grin on your face and the people selling it you like the best. Then, if you can possibly afford it, pay more than you first thought you were willing to spend. The pain of paying out some more money wears off quickly. The joy of riding a bike that really suits you will endure long into the future every time you saddle up.

Thank you!

I can understand the DIY guys somewhat, but I'm no hardware guy and to be honest, I'm quite terrible at repairing my own bike. Despite having my road bike for 4 years, I've only changed flats and the chain myself. Tried to fix the deraileur-ish portion (made it worse) when it wasn't aligning well. So I rather have a well made bike, despite the overhead cost.

Stefan also mentioned a wait regarding R&M I'll have to test ride them and speak with the local dealers to get an idea of how long of a wait, if I end up pulling the trigger on one. I can be quite impatient once I decide what I want, I typically want it in my hands quickly.

I have friends who go on mountain biking trails (Where in Denmark? I really have no idea. There are no mountains!) I had an idea that I'd join them. But realistically? I think I'd only use it for commuting on roads to work, somewhat of an exercise when heading to/from the gym but nothing wild. So do I need the best of the best? Nah. But not limiting myself to a certain budget also lets me know what's at the top and slowly scope down to what makes the most sense.

 

[Alaskan]

If you go to the Trek store, be sure to test ride this bike. I own one of them in the USA and it would be a fantastic commuter bike, very elegant, well built, fast and fun. Aside from one issue that presented right away and Trek solved for me very nicely, this has been a very solid and reliable bicycle with only minor periodic adjustments needed while travelling many, many miles.

You also have the option of ordering it with dual batteries for very extended range. Given your lack of budget, I think this top tier bike from Trek will meet your needs quite well. It has excellent alloy fenders which will be very nice to have in a rainy place like Denmark.

Allant+ 9.9S - Trek Bikes (DK)

Oplev din næste, herlige tur sammen med Allant+ 9.9S. Se cyklen og besøg din lokale Trek forhandler.

www.trekbikes.com

 

[Alaskan]

A word of caution about the Trek Allant as shown on the Trek Denmark web site. In the photo they show this bicycle with a Bosch CX motor, which is limited to 32km maximum asssist. In the descriptions they say:

"A streamlined and super functional carbon fiber frame with a fully integrated 625 Wh PowerTube battery (the Bosch model with the longest range), an ultra-powerful Bosch Performance Speed motor system (250 W, 75 Nm) that can maintain speeds of up to 45 km / h , and Kiox controller. In addition, this bike has a Shimano XT / SLX gear group with 12 gears, hydraulic disc brakes with 4 pistons for safe braking power in all types of weather, built-in headlight and taillight system, streamlined integrated cabling through the stem, fenders, luggage carrier and 27.5 "wheels with through axles. Prepared for Range Boost."

Be sure to confirm that the bike has the faster motor for your commute and comes very well equipped with powerful lights front and rear, very good fenders for wet weather and luggage rails to hold panniers or an office side bag like the one from Ortlieb.