Help deciding on E-bike for longer commute

[Robbie Flick]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been perusing the forums and reviews for some time now, and want to express my gratitude for a really incredible resource for folks like me considering an e-bike for the first time.

I recently moved from Denver to Baltimore for my residency training. Commuting in Denver was easy, and I fell in love with it. Now, I have a ~40 mile roundtrip commute, which I had assumed would be impossible by bike. That was until I demoed a sporty e-bike (Giant Road-E+) and got to the hospital in under an hour despite making a few wrong turns, to my great relief. Now I’m seriously considering purchasing an e-bike in the hopes of commuting by bike at least once a week at a minimum.

A little bit about me and my commute. I’m in my 30s and fairly athletic, just coming off a 9-day MTB ride in SA. Commute (link here https://www.strava.com/activities/1642395416) is fairly flat and on main roads, typically without much wind. I’ll typically be commuting without much traffic due to the weird hours of medical training. I have a safe place to lock the bike up at the hospital and a place to charge. Keeping the commute under one hour each way would be ideal—we are capped at 80 hour work weeks but frequently go over, so any longer spent in transit would be difficult to maintain.

I’ve found some very helpful advice here, and have been following @Chris Hammond’s experience with the Juiced CCS with great interest. The price point is beautiful; I’d really like to keep this under $3k if at all possible.

A few specific questions:

1. A few LBS’s have cautioned me about getting a “lesser known” brand (in their eyes this seems to be any of the exclusive e-bike companies) due to problems getting the bike serviced. I am (slowly, painfully) becoming more mechanically savvy, but will have very limited time to fiddle around over the coming months. Is this a valid concern? I have no experience with getting e-bikes of any brand serviced. They clearly have a conflict of interest when giving me this advice since they only sell the big brands (Trek and Giant, basically).
2. I’d love to hear any thoughts on whether this bike makes sense for this application, and if there are other models I should seriously consider. I’ve looked very closely at the Quick-E+ and Haibike’s urban line, but it seems you get far better value with the CCS. Quick-E+ also has no suspension and the roads out here can be quite rough.
3. Finally, maximum size battery CCS ships with appears to be 19.2/48V. Sounds like the 52V option is ideal for both distance and speed, not sure how much of a difference I’d see with the 48V instead. After chatting with Juiced tech support, sounds like the only way to get a 52V currently would be to by it separately for about $1400.

Thank you!

 

[Gator]

Hello and Welcome

I am planning to commute as well. I just got my Giant Quick-E + and it is a lot of bike for 3 grand and some change. I can do basic stuff on the road and in the garage, but I personally want my commuter bike a "turn key" situation so I have opted for the more mainstream brand that can be serviced and repaired at my LBS 15 minutes drive away. I don't know what your medical specialty is but I know with a lot of doctors, especially surgeons, their hands are very important and some are very careful about injury. I am sure a bike build and repair can be done injury free, just something I thought of while reading your post.

On another note, during your spare time =D, It would be great to have some first hand experience/professional opinion on the benefits of ebiking compared and contrasted with regular biking. Some of us old folks on the forum make this a major part of their exercise program and it would be good to have some solid medical info from a fellow ebiker.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Let me suggest that you look at @Chris Hammond's posts. He rides a 60 mile (round trip) commute.

I think you're going to want to look at the Class 3 (28 mph speed pedelec) bikes. With 40 miles round trip, I'd want the option to get through it more quickly.

Also, if you can carry your charger and re-charge at work, then there are a number of bikes that would work for you. Otherwise, get the biggest battery you can. It's not just total distance between charges, although that's certainly important. It's also that performance on any bike will decrease as the voltage drops. This will happen more slowly, the more watt-hours you've got on hand.

 

[Chris Hammond]

So, you are correct that the CCS is not currently available with the 52V battery.
However, for a 20 mile one way commute, the 48V/ 19.2Ah battery will be provide plenty of range. I would still recommend planning on charging at work. This would be true even with the 52V battery.
In my experience, I am almost always charging to 80%, which from a voltage standpoint is equivalent to a 48V pack at full charge. At this level you can attain a top assisted speed of ~ 33.5 mph. This will very slowly drop as the pack voltage drops, but even at ~30%, top assisted speed is still >31 mph. For a 20 mile commute, as long as you are willing to pedal at a reasonable level, you should likely be able to commute the whole distance in level 3 or S and not get anywhere near the 20% level on the pack, I almost never get the voltage on my pack below the 30% point. Based on your description of fitness and biking experience, you will have no problem averaging at least 25 mph, unless you have a ton of traffic lights stopping you constantly. (If you do the commute in S mode your cruising speed will be over 30 unless you are into a big headwind or steeper hills).
If you chose to only charge your 48V pack to 80%, you would probably want to be a bit more conservative with power use, but you would still make the distance easily at high speeds.
IMHO, you don't need to spend the money to buy a 52V pack. The CCS is a true bargain with the 19.2 Ah pack. There isn't another bike I am aware of that even comes close to the performance at the price. Good luck in your search. Biggest problem you are likely to have with the CCS is waiting for it to arrive.

 

[Robbie Flick]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses! Definitely appreciate the info. Chris, very helpful to hear your thoughts on the battery, especially the 48V vs 52V issue. Looks like there are more arriving later this month so hopefully will be able to get my hands on one soon!

I'd be curious to hear if folks who don't own a bike from one of the major companies have any experience getting their bike serviced at their LBS. My one hesitation is still a situation where I'm on a very busy service, cannot get the bike repaired, and end up not using it for weeks on end because I lack the technical expertise (and therefore additional time) required to fix it.

@Gator asked a great question about medical benefits of ebiking vs biking. Books could (and probably have been) written on this topic, and I'm just a mere internal medicine intern, so take this with a grain of salt. My approach is that the best kind of exercise is the type you'll do the most. Most people are drawn to ebiking for a good reason, and in almost all cases the ebike allows them to get out more than they otherwise would on their regular bicycle. For most people, the issue is not that they're doing the wrong kind of exercise—it's that they're not exercising at all. So I think ebikes are a fabulous approach to get people more exercise.

That's a bit of a cop-out though, as I think you were asking about a direct comparison between ebiking and biking. Sure, an hour on the traditional bike may keep you at a higher heart rate, and I'm sure there's some branch of exercise science that could compare the two in a more granular way. But in broad strokes, because the design means you still have to work for it, I think ebiking is a perfectly fine way to exercise. If you'd like to verify, I'd recommend using a HR monitor on a few rides to make sure you're getting your HR up to at least twice that of your resting (again, broad strokes here).

 

[Chris Hammond]

There are some actual studies on the health benefits of ebiking vs. regular bikes. https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/1-s2.0-S2214140516303930-main.pdf There are others as well.
Key points, Ebikes tend to get ridden more often, (more enjoyable to ride, less fear of hills/ wind, etc.); riders nearly universally are riding in the "moderate exercise effort" on ebikes thus they clearly are getting the cardiovascular benefit. (This is very true for me. I have been an avid cyclist for many years, however, my long commute had me riding the train when there was a headwind a lot, now with the ebike I ride round trip nearly everyday).
As with just about anything in life, your results are dependent on your effort and time working toward your goal. Even with near zero effort on an ebike, however, you are still doing more than you would be sitting in a car.
I am a cardiac cath lab nurse btw, so I have a better than average understanding of cardiovascular health/risks/benefits etc.

As I have gotten older, my attitude about biking has changed a lot. I am now of the opinion that the best bike is the one that makes you want to ride the most, and gets you out riding.
The health benefits of cycling are undeniable, regardless of electrical assistance or not.

 

[Gator]

I was out riding with my son this morning. We were practicing his route to ride to school in the Fall. I did not turn my new Ebike on and rode for a while without assist. It got me to thinking. If I want increased health benefits from my commute, I could turn the bike off and analog-pedal the last 15 minutes or so and help out the old ticker. I could do this on my way home so when the sweat storm hits I'm headed into my own home rather than into work. It would save a little bit on the recharge frequency as well.

Oh and Dr. Flick check this bike out. It might work for you. (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I'd be curious to hear if folks who don't own a bike from one of the major companies have any experience getting their bike serviced at their LBS.

So much of what needs to be done is just routine bike stuff. My LBS has been great about working on my bike even though I bought it online. I haven't needed any work on the electronics, but they do sell ebikes so it's not that great of a stretch. The CrossCurrent S, which is what I own, was designed to be modular -- you can swap out parts of systems fairly easily. So I don't foresee any problems in that area.

 

[Robbie Flick]

Thanks for the article @Chris Hammond —what a cool read, and interesting journal! I didn't know you're nurse in the cardiac cath lab. You guys do incredible things. I may ask for some advice on how to handle my first CCU rotation later this year

@Gator, thanks for sharing your experience and for the link. I really liked the Haibikes, but that particular model is only up to 25 km/h and I'm pretty sold on the CCS.

@Bruce Arnold, thanks for the message. That's a huge relief. There is a good e-bike shop in Baltimore, they don't sell Juiced but I'm fairly certain they'll be able to service it. Calling tomorrow to confirm.

So it would appear I'm in for a CCS. And it looks like they're getting in a new shipment soon! Very much appreciate the advice from the group.

 

[Robbie Flick]

So I called up two e-bike shops in the Baltimore/DC area today to see if they'd help with any service or repairs I did not have the time or skill to address. I got almost the exact same response from each. It went something like this:

1. Electric bikes from "online retailers" are trash.
2. Online retailers just "wander around China" buying up e-bikes and selling them to US consumers.
3. It's impossible to get warranty help for the battery/motor, and anything other than Bosch/Shimano inevitably breaks, and they both had examples of Juiced bikes in their shops that "just don't work" (couldn't provide any more detail)
4. Come on down to our shop and we'll help you (you poor misinformed soul) in finding a "real" e-bike

I'm assuming this just reflects the bias of brick-and-mortar shops that need to move inventory. I've gone through the Juiced forum on this site fairly extensively. It appears that customer support and warranty claims used to be sluggish but have seen considerable improvements recently. I also understand that there are some aspects of Juiced bikes that are not the highest quality (battery connector design seems to be a good example). However, given the price point, this seems to be a worthwhile compromise. The cost of a bike with equivalent specs from other, more mainstream groups appears to be several thousand dollars more, which is outside my budget.

Still—it was a bit dispiriting.

 

[Chris Hammond]

So I called up two e-bike shops in the Baltimore/DC area today to see if they'd help with any service or repairs I did not have the time or skill to address. I got almost the exact same response from each. It went something like this:

1. Electric bikes from "online retailers" are trash.
2. Online retailers just "wander around China" buying up e-bikes and selling them to US consumers.
3. It's impossible to get warranty help for the battery/motor, and anything other than Bosch/Shimano inevitably breaks, and they both had examples of Juiced bikes in their shops that "just don't work" (couldn't provide any more detail)
4. Come on down to our shop and we'll help you (you poor misinformed soul) in finding a "real" e-bike

I'm assuming this just reflects the bias of brick-and-mortar shops that need to move inventory. I've gone through the Juiced forum on this site fairly extensively. It appears that customer support and warranty claims used to be sluggish but have seen considerable improvements recently. I also understand that there are some aspects of Juiced bikes that are not the highest quality (battery connector design seems to be a good example). However, given the price point, this seems to be a worthwhile compromise. The cost of a bike with equivalent specs from other, more mainstream groups appears to be several thousand dollars more, which is outside my budget.

Still—it was a bit dispiriting.

They are ultimately trying to sell you a bike. They have a huge incentive to scare you from buying from somewhere else. Markup is probably at least 60% on the e bikes they are selling. Ignore the scare tactics. I have over 1300 miles on my CCS in about 6 weeks. The only problem I have had was a failed rear taillight, Juiced sent a replacement immediately.
Continue doing your research and buy the bike that you feel is best for your needs. I highly doubt you will have trouble getting someone to service it as they are making money there, and hopefully Building a bigger customer base.

 

[Gator]

That would be a bit dispiriting. Don't let them get you down. The brands they sell are wandering around China looking for parts also. If you purchase the bike and on down the road need work done on it and showed up at the door needing repair I would be very surprised if they turned down the work. And, if they did you don't want them touching your bike anyway. With the transition to a service economy, I wonder if their are bike mechanics that will come to you. In heavy metropolitan areas lots of talented folks are making a living off of making it convenient for you. That's how Geek Squad started back in the day. Craig's List, Angie's List, somebody's list might be able to help you out. One more suggestion; check with Juiced Bikes; maybe they already have someone in the area they can refer you to. I ran errands on my new bike this morning and it was a blast. With all the riding I have been doing, I sleep better at night, my appetite is better, I feel better, and I look forward to the physical activity. For this old fart, that's like drawing four aces.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

So I called up two e-bike shops in the Baltimore/DC area today to see if they'd help with any service or repairs I did not have the time or skill to address. I got almost the exact same response from each. It went something like this:

1. Electric bikes from "online retailers" are trash.
2. Online retailers just "wander around China" buying up e-bikes and selling them to US consumers.
3. It's impossible to get warranty help for the battery/motor, and anything other than Bosch/Shimano inevitably breaks, and they both had examples of Juiced bikes in their shops that "just don't work" (couldn't provide any more detail)
4. Come on down to our shop and we'll help you (you poor misinformed soul) in finding a "real" e-bike

I'm assuming this just reflects the bias of brick-and-mortar shops that need to move inventory. I've gone through the Juiced forum on this site fairly extensively. It appears that customer support and warranty claims used to be sluggish but have seen considerable improvements recently. I also understand that there are some aspects of Juiced bikes that are not the highest quality (battery connector design seems to be a good example). However, given the price point, this seems to be a worthwhile compromise. The cost of a bike with equivalent specs from other, more mainstream groups appears to be several thousand dollars more, which is outside my budget.

Still—it was a bit dispiriting.

Chiming in on the brick and mortar store. Yep, it's self-serving. Poor way to go about it. They could sell you on their product without trashing the other guy's. But hey, that's business. It's not "everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten" for sure.

You've done a good read of the Juiced Bikes forum -- some guys get stuck on older posts from months or even years ago referencing problems that have been solved and get put off by all that.

There have been occasional problems reported with battery retention, but no reason to think it's common; too many of us riding them that haven't had the same problem. Good to know about, it could happen, forewarned is forearmed, all that.

There may have been more posts with the exact opposite problem: Batteries whose receptacle is too tight and they take more effort to seat, rather than too loose. Just being honest with you.

But it's kind of like buying a 2001 Buick LeSabre; a lot of them had problems with the power windows not working after very little time on the road. But not thousands of them. (You still see a lot of those vehicles on the road in the retiree communities here in eastern NC. Handsome, comfortable, relatively cheap to run -- great grandpa-grandma car.)

I wish we had some way of doing a real statistical analysis of these things. We mainly get two kinds of people on the forum: hobbyists, who love their bikes (warts and all) and love to talk about them, and people with complaints. It's not a good sample. Better than nothing, I suppose.

I'll say this, as a psychotherapist (doctorate in clinical social work) with over 40 years of experience of figuring out what's going on in people's noggins: with thousands of Juiced Bikes products sold, I'm pretty sure we'd see a swarm of complaints if the quality was typically low. I can't prove it, but people being what they are, they'd find some place to complain if the bikes were that faulty. Just my take.

 

[PowerMe]

My advice: if you're contacting a retail cycling and sales shop to see if their bike mechanics will service your ebike, tell them you already have an ebike and have moved to the area and want to find a local shop to do the necessary service and maintenance.

Also, another tip: look for motorcycle/scooter or independent bicycle repair type shops, not retail bike sales shops that sell Trek, Specialized and the others. I found a cycle repair shop near me and they were totally fine with working on ebikes and had no problem with it. This mom & pop shop was just as qualified as any retail bike shop mechanics and I got no attitude whatsoever. In fact, the owner was excited about my ebike. I had my ebike shipped directly to that service shop from the place I purchased it online, had the cycle shop put it together and check everything out, and I picked it up, fully assembled and ready to roll. Then, when it was time for a tune up after riding my ebike for a few months, I had them do the tune-up service and check all components and do the regular things any bike mechanic would do.

So try that instead of contacting the bike retailing shops where their #1 goal is to sell you *their* bikes and they'll pooh-pooh any ebike that isn't their brand.

 

[Don12]

Hello
My commute at the minimum is 34 miles round trip. I am a road biker first but love to be on a bike anyway I can be. I ride indoors and outdoors, on spinners, anyway I can. So for me my Class 3 bike choice was a Trek CrossRip+. My 17 mile one way commute to work is semi hilly with a tiny amount of gravel and takes me, if I go sport/turbo about 40 minutes(no sweating). On the way home I usually choose a longer route 25-30 miles and bring assistance down to Eco mode or if I am tired I use touring mode. I leave a 2amp charger at work and a 4amp charger home so I do not have any issues with battery life. So I get cardio on the way into work and strength or endurance on the way home. I considered the Giant E but I didn't want the extra hassle of a front derailleur, I just don't think it is necessary. The SRAM Force 11 speed on the Trek CrossRip+ is perfect. I have no issues climbing hills and have a heck of good time riding the flats. I clean and oil my chain weekly, check my tires (38s) regularly and wipe down my bike any chance I get. There are a few Trek stores within 10-20 miles of me so I know I can get service anytime I may need it. Incorporating this beast of a bike into my routine/workout has been one of the best things I have ever done for keeping myself healthy and happy. Biking has been the best choice of workout for me and because of the Trek CrossRip+ or bikes like it I hope to keep riding for a very long time. Hope you find the right ride!

 

[batmick1]

I too have a fairly long commute (18 miles one way) that I have been doing by conventional bikes for over 10 years. This January I finally made the switch to an e-bike and it has been wonderful. Shaved about 30 minutes off my daily commute.
I went with the Haibike XDuro Trekking RX for several reasons, and because ebikes of NE had one on sale in my size (64cm). It is a great bike, the entire Haibike Trekking series is, because it is so complete with racks, lights, fenders etc.. I plan to upgrade and switch parts as they fail but have a turnkey bike that works well.
I put in a Peartune MSO chip to remove the 20mph speed limitation, however. It works fantastic and now I am able to noodle along in the mid 20s or, when I push, I max out around 35mph simply because of the gearing. I just swapped the drive sprocket from the original 18t to a 20t.
Hope this helps with your decision making.

 

[Acey]

So I called up two e-bike shops in the Baltimore/DC area today to see if they'd help with any service or repairs I did not have the time or skill to address. I got almost the exact same response from each. It went something like this:

1. Electric bikes from "online retailers" are trash.
2. Online retailers just "wander around China" buying up e-bikes and selling them to US consumers.
3. It's impossible to get warranty help for the battery/motor, and anything other than Bosch/Shimano inevitably breaks, and they both had examples of Juiced bikes in their shops that "just don't work" (couldn't provide any more detail)
4. Come on down to our shop and we'll help you (you poor misinformed soul) in finding a "real" e-bike

I'm assuming this just reflects the bias of brick-and-mortar shops that need to move inventory. I've gone through the Juiced forum on this site fairly extensively. It appears that customer support and warranty claims used to be sluggish but have seen considerable improvements recently. I also understand that there are some aspects of Juiced bikes that are not the highest quality (battery connector design seems to be a good example). However, given the price point, this seems to be a worthwhile compromise. The cost of a bike with equivalent specs from other, more mainstream groups appears to be several thousand dollars more, which is outside my budget.

Still—it was a bit dispiriting.

On average, the LBS makes 30% off e-bike sales. Online companies save you that amount plus another 5% for distributors. Most online e-bikes are purposefully designed to be plug and play so anyone with a wrench can replace virtually every part. The vast majority of e-bike companies pass the manufacturer's part warranty to the consumer (from Stromer to Acey DC E-Bikes) entitling you to receive warranty work at any authorized dealer. Most electronic warranties are handled by the manufacturer (us) and trouble can often be diagnosed over the phone or with a video or photo.

The comment about cheap Chinese bikes is echoed throughout the pages of this forum. "Anything under $3k must be junk because it's not expensive." Our biggest obstacle is people who think an e-bike built for under $600 and sold for $2,000+ is a better deal than an e-bike built for $1000 and sold for $1799. Brand image and lifestyle advertising are hot now because you can raise the price for perception without investing another nickel into the product. It's like charging for the air in the box. And nothing helps give the perception of "expensive" like a high price...

Truthfully, until e-bikes, many LBSs were a dying breed. Most were making the majority of their income from repair services prior to the influx of high margin e-bikes and their growing demand. Bike shops won't forget how close they were to the brink before e-bikes pulled them back. Before launching my online e-bike company, I polled about 50 bike shops in 20+ states and they all "prefer" you buy from them, but they won't turn anyone away. It was an unscientific test, based on calling random e-bike repair shops from Google, but it cemented our decision to be an online e-bike company.

Note: LEVA has e-bike technician certification courses (we're certified) and all the other students in my class were starting their own independent repair businesses. I think we'll see more independent repair shops emerge as the e-bike community continues to grow. Always ask whether your tech is certified or it may decertify your warranty terms.

 

[Gator]

On average, the LBS makes 30% off e-bike sales. Online companies save you that amount plus another 5% for distributors. Most online e-bikes are purposefully designed to be plug and play so anyone with a wrench can replace virtually every part. The vast majority of e-bike companies pass the manufacturer's part warranty to the consumer (from Stromer to Acey DC E-Bikes) entitling you to receive warranty work at any authorized dealer. Most electronic warranties are handled by the manufacturer (us) and trouble can often be diagnosed over the phone or with a video or photo.

The comment about cheap Chinese bikes is echoed throughout the pages of this forum. "Anything under $3k must be junk because it's not expensive." Our biggest obstacle is people who think an e-bike built for under $600 and sold for $2,000+ is a better deal than an e-bike built for $1000 and sold for $1799. Brand image and lifestyle advertising are hot now because you can raise the price for perception without investing another nickel into the product. It's like charging for the air in the box. And nothing helps give the perception of "expensive" like a high price...

Truthfully, until e-bikes, many LBSs were a dying breed. Most were making the majority of their income from repair services prior to the influx of high margin e-bikes and their growing demand. Bike shops won't forget how close they were to the brink before e-bikes pulled them back. Before launching my online e-bike company, I polled about 50 bike shops in 20+ states and they all "prefer" you buy from them, but they won't turn anyone away. It was an unscientific test, based on calling random e-bike repair shops from Google, but it cemented our decision to be an online e-bike company.

Note: LEVA has e-bike technician certification courses (we're certified) and all the other students in my class were starting their own independent repair businesses. I think we'll see more independent repair shops emerge as the e-bike community continues to grow. Always ask whether your tech is certified or it may decertify your warranty terms.

Where are your bikes made?

Has Court reviewed one of your bikes?

What info do you have on new battery technology? How is this tech employed on your bikes?

 

[Acey]

Like over 90% of all e-bikes in the U.S. market, Acey DC E-Bikes are manufactured and assembled in China. This number will change if a tariff is placed on e-bikes from China as we already secured a Taiwan factory to produce our e-bikes if a 25% tariff would go into effect. (The EU just leveled 168% tariff on Chinese e-bikes due to dumping, so EVERYONE is trying to move manufacturing. Pay attention to when/if the tariff is announced and speak out against it on the government website. Ironically, other products got removed from tariffs due to public outcry, which placed e-bikes on the potential list after it was passed over once. We don't sell re-brands or pre-built e-bikes, so we are not tied to one manufacturer. Our bikes are custom designed, reviewed by e-bike engineers and built to our exact specifications.

I've sent several requests to Court without reply. In fairness, all I have are the last generation of prototypes until the shipment arrives. I've been told independently to not expect a review as a new company/unknown player, so I'm looking for someone with a camera presence and knowledge of e-bikes to provide an independent review. Any takers from SoCal?

Battery tech. It is changing rapidly with the adoption of e-bikes and electric cars. Are you referring to the 21700 cells? We started looking into batteries with these cells when we were designing our current models. At our request, our manufacturer is currently testing batteries from two manufacturers. The testing process requires periodic random sampling, inspections, testing under load and continual cycling through charge and discharge. The testing lasts up to 6 months prior to accepting the battery manufacturer as a source. We currently have two e-bikes on the drawing board for the new batteries. Our current batteries use Samsung 18650 cells.

 

[Gator]

You are the first manufacturer I've corresponded with besides sales chat. Thanks for the straight forward answers. One more question; what would it entail moving manufacturing to the US? What would have to happen for it to make sound business sense to manufacture ebikes in the US? OK that's two questions so I'll stop =D