Help Critique My Stealth e-bike Parts and Sellers Choices

[harryS]

What was wrong with the original choice, 500W geared Bafang from Greenergia for $381 CDN? That was your second link.

I have a Bafang SWXH, which is 250W and will do 20 mph in a 700cc wheel. Also the BMSBattery Q100H, which is a 12X geared motor similar in size to the 310. The latter are used on our 20" ebikes, which don't need to go much faster than 18 mph, and they won't. Unless you want stealth as a tradeoff, I'd suggest the larger motor.

 

[Handlebars]

What was wrong with the original choice, 500W geared Bafang from Greenergia for $381 CDN? That was your second link.

I have a Bafang SWXH, which is 250W and will do 20 mph in a 700cc wheel. Also the BMSBattery Q100H, which is a 12X geared motor similar in size to the 310. The latter are used on our 20" ebikes, which don't need to go much faster than 18 mph, and they won't. Unless you want stealth as a tradeoff, I'd suggest the larger motor.

Hi Harry,
The Greenergia is CDN $381 +$100 shipping, but I could get it a bit cheaper on eBay from same seller. The reason I was looking around some more now is that the G020 is actually rated 250W nominal, and I would have preferred to have a bigger motor, but it's not clear to me now that there are any 500W nominal Bafang motors for general sale. The Eunerau motor is the G04 and it's also 250 nominal called 500W. Bluenergy is also 250W listed as 500W nominal.

I really only want 20mph limited, and often 15 mph speed would be preferred speed. I do want quick acceleration to keep up with the traffic from stoplight to stoplight on city streets. I would pedal, but I want strong motor assist. Maybe these overvolted 250W motors would be good enough, but I did get halted when I realized they are saying one thing on the ads but another in the spec sheets. So, I was looking around some more after that realization, to see if there were 500W motors rated as 500W motors. It seems that fat bikes get the bigger motor and the rest are smaller.

So I'm hesitating due to lack of knowledge. Maybe 250 would be enough acceleration and enough to climb hills. I'm 150 lb. so it might be enough. I'd like a bigger motor to make sure, maybe to make the motor last longer, but that's really all suppositions.

 

[Handlebars]

What was wrong with the original choice, 500W geared Bafang from Greenergia for $381 CDN? That was your second link.

I have a Bafang SWXH, which is 250W and will do 20 mph in a 700cc wheel. Also the BMSBattery Q100H, which is a 12X geared motor similar in size to the 310. The latter are used on our 20" ebikes, which don't need to go much faster than 18 mph, and they won't. Unless you want stealth as a tradeoff, I'd suggest the larger motor.

I looked at BMS and got confused again but I'm going to take some time to read through everything. Maybe the important thing for me is that your 250W does 20mph. It's on 36V?

I also see that Eunerau has what might be nominal 500W ...might be old stock... the 8Fun.
https://eunorau-ebike.com/products/...pm-brushless-geared-hub-motor-for-front-wheel
But their other 500W offering is yet another 250W nominal, it appears. 8FUN-CST-48TypeRM G04

 

[indianajo]

I'm sorry to see you're still shopping around as summer melts away.
Watts are all so theoretical, especially as the governments have gotten involved with all these rules. 18 months ago 1000 W was the standard DD power wheel on ebay/amazon, I have one labeled 48vly1000. It performed okay but was kind of a watt hour hog on the hills I run (46 hills I counted on the back half of my commute yesterday). DD could be just right for your city traffic runs between green lights. 1200 W is what my geared hub motor from ebikeling was rated at, and since it will run the battery indicator down to yellow with a nearly full charge up a big hill, I imagine it is taking all the 26 amps the controller is rated to deliver.
You're building a bike, it is not going to have a sticker saying class 1 or whatever. If you stay out of parks with signs prohibiting ebikes and don't hit anybody on a sidewalk, nobody is going to look for your sticker. I was up to 35 mph today unpowered down a hill, and nobody noticed. Tested the brakes at 25 mph too - 20 feet stop and maybe less.
I will say using throttle only my thumb gets tired if I use power on any level stretches. PAS would be nice but not the 11 mph level zero one I bought. Fancier controllers can be bought later, with the crank magnet pickups, displays and all that. Having had a display with all the wrong numbers and a lot of big lies ( 0 mph down the hills if the power is off - I estimate about 30 mph) I don't respect cheap displays. Maybe the ones on $5000 bikes are cool - I'm not going to buy one of those to find out.
The days of jolly roger 1200 W hub motor kits may be over, but some of the major hub motor players are still around. But they have retreated to ali or direct sale from china, whereas 2 years ago they were on ebay & amazon. Two that have caught my eye repeatedly are leaf and golden pie. I'm nervous about sending my debit card # to reside on a foreign server, where who is in charge of no hacking enforement? But for a purchase like this you could load up one of those one time debit cards for sale at the grocery store, and let the perps hack the # of an empty card all they want after your purchase is complete. Another geared hub I keep looking at is the QT128, but there are so many unanswered questions about that product.
If you can stand DD, (and your application if flat & high speed) then the generic (really ly) 1000w DD wheels are still out there. The bonus if you buy the hub in the wheel, it comes equipped for a disk, you don't have to buy a separate wheel to have disk brakes. Buying a caliper and disk (ebikeling sold me some $20 ea) puts you 2/3 the way there to having disk brakes without spending $400 on some discount store junk. You do have to wrap the frame strut with a tether, and bolt the caliper to that. About 3 hours fiddling in my back yard, maybe another hour to tweak whatever you did wrong. Same process are making your own torque arms - I haven't bought one yet and both kits were torque arm supported to the struts. In fact the back DD motor the motor nuts came loose and the torque arms held the motor in place with some strange clunks until I got home. Torque arms take longer than disk brakes, you have to file out that strange shaped hole for the axle after drilling to 8 mm holes. Use elastic stop nuts or double nuts countertightened, you don't want either torque arm or caliper mount coming loose. I find 10-32 stainless screws to be adequate, 5 mm is probably also fine if not made in *****. (I buy quality fasteners from mcmaster & grainger, not the ebay ****).
So quit obsessing with european rule compatible 250 w bagang or whatever. You're not in Europe putting up with VOPO's trained in the communist era. Your mounties are out catching murderers & rapists, just stay away from the park police who might be nit picky about your stealth bike kit. Rich suburbs with private rent-a-cops are another place I stay away from. You're not even supposed to BE there, they'll find something to charge you with. Today when the county deputy car was monitoring the zoo that is quitting time at the red light next to Amazon fulfillment warehouse, I was all politeness and careful. Where I did my 35 mph stunts was out in the country where nobody was looking. 69 years and no speeding tickets? Watch for the man & don't get caught. Don't worry about the 20 mph limit canada has on e-bikes, just don't run any speed traps above that.

 

[Handlebars]

I'm sorry to see you're still shopping around as summer melts away.

Yeah, that's just sad. At least I'm building up my pedaling power again. And learning more. I hate buying the wrong item. I could easily have bought a wrong item a couple of times already. but things are shaping up.

I will say using throttle only my thumb gets tired if I use power on any level stretches. PAS would be nice but not the 11 mph level zero one I bought. Fancier controllers can be bought later, with the crank magnet pickups, displays and all that. Having had a display with all the wrong numbers and a lot of big lies ( 0 mph down the hills if the power is off - I estimate about 30 mph) I don't respect cheap displays. Maybe the ones on $5000 bikes are cool - I'm not going to buy one of those to find out.

There's something I want to pay more attention to. I anticipate throttle use vs arthritis presenting a problem and I want to have cruise control ability as well. For a display choice, less is more if it can do cruise control. I don't need a large or colored screen.
I'll need to find out which display or button will do cruise control.

The days of jolly roger 1200 W hub motor kits may be over, but some of the major hub motor players are still around. But they have retreated to ali or direct sale from china, whereas 2 years ago they were on ebay & amazon. Two that have caught my eye repeatedly are leaf and golden pie. I'm nervous about sending my debit card # to reside on a foreign server, where who is in charge of no hacking enforement? But for a purchase like this you could load up one of those one time debit cards for sale at the grocery store, and let the perps hack the # of an empty card all they want after your purchase is complete. Another geared hub I keep looking at is the QT128, but there are so many unanswered questions about that product.
If you can stand DD, (and your application if flat & high speed) then the generic (really ly) 1000w DD wheels are still out there. The bonus if you buy the hub in the wheel, it comes equipped for a disk, you don't have to buy a separate wheel to have disk brakes. Buying a caliper and disk (ebikeling sold me some $20 ea) puts you 2/3 the way there to having disk brakes without spending $400 on some discount store junk. You do have to wrap the frame strut with a tether, and bolt the caliper to that. About 3 hours fiddling in my back yard, maybe another hour to tweak whatever you did wrong. Same process are making your own torque arms - I haven't bought one yet and both kits were torque arm supported to the struts. In fact the back DD motor the motor nuts came loose and the torque arms held the motor in place with some strange clunks until I got home. Torque arms take longer than disk brakes, you have to file out that strange shaped hole for the axle after drilling to 8 mm holes. Use elastic stop nuts or double nuts countertightened, you don't want either torque arm or caliper mount coming loose. I find 10-32 stainless screws to be adequate, 5 mm is probably also fine if not made in *****. (I buy quality fasteners from mcmaster & grainger, not the ebay ****).
So quit obsessing with european rule compatible 250 w bagang or whatever. You're not in Europe putting up with VOPO's trained in the communist era. Your mounties are out catching murderers & rapists, just stay away from the park police who might be nit picky about your stealth bike kit. Rich suburbs with private rent-a-cops are another place I stay away from. You're not even supposed to BE there, they'll find something to charge you with. Today when the county deputy car was monitoring the zoo that is quitting time at the red light next to Amazon fulfillment warehouse, I was all politeness and careful. Where I did my 35 mph stunts was out in the country where nobody was looking. 69 years and no speeding tickets? Watch for the man & don't get caught. Don't worry about the 20 mph limit canada has on e-bikes, just don't run any speed traps above that.

Good stuff, indianajo Thank you for the brakes technical info and general reminders.

 

[stanmiller]

Here is the "greenergia" rear hub geared motor kit: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07H77QT3J/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=AF0FBM1E362GS&th=1&psc=1
Suggestions or criticism very welcome.

That Greenergia kit is from Bluenergy.

Greenergia and Junstar are Bluenergy resellers on Amazon. These are nice kits with quality controllers and parts. I'm fast approaching 1800 miles on my conversion.

For spare parts, I bought a second conversion kit without the wheel. The DP C18 display on its own retails for $99, so for just over $300 I have a spare everything (motor, cadence sensor, display, throttle, brake levers, and so on... ) I ordered my last two kits direct from Bluenergy at AliExpress and they arrived in less than two-weeks. Faster than the original kit ordered from Junstar on Amazon.

On my Electra, I installed a disc brake adapter from A2Z. For my wife's Trek I stuck with rim brakes and had a rim wheel laced with the Bafang motor from the kit. I upgraded the v-brakes to Shimano BR-T4000's with Clarks brake pads. What a difference! It doesn't stop as well as the disc-braked Electra, but has plenty of stopping power. You find you quickly adjust to the bike's stopping characteristics and will ride according to the limits.

Soon I'll be downgrading the Electra to the same setup. Rim brakes for me. The A2Z works and is trustworthy, but makes changing a flat a science project and requires regular adjustment to stop squealing.

If you can get a brake mount welded then that is the way to go, but I think you'll find upgraded rim brakes will be fine.

Mostly likely that big battery won't fit the downtube. I had the same challenge with the wife's Trek. For her, I bought a small 36v 5.8Ah bottle battery. (See attached pic)

184.5US $ 10% OFF|10S2P New 36V 5AH 6AH 6.7AH 7AH Bottle Battery Rechargeable 36 Volt Battery for Escooter With BMS and Charger|Electric Bicycle Battery| - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

This battery doesn't give much distance, but you could carry a second as a spare and swap out on the road.

After sorting through all the possiblities, I concluded that one should convert their bike according to the bikes characteristics. And if the donor bike doesn't suit the desired configuration, one should seek out another donor bike. To wit, I recently looked at upgrading to a Rock Shock fork on the Electra. This would require welding a steerer tube extension - another science project. So now I'm looking at the Giant Sedona DX for my next project. It has disc brakes, a suspension shock, and comfort geometry.

 

[Handlebars]

stanmiller, thank you for that information. I really alters my outlook once again. I was just about to buy a plain-looking ready-made because I wasn't making enough progress in deciding for my intended stealth bike and I thought it would be well over a month to arrive.
I was planning to mount the battery lower, in a sturdy box with normal pannier style covering, but with variable air flow, and balance with tools and backpack on the other side.

The geometry of my bike is very dangerous with weight up above the rear rack in a basket and back far enough to clear the saddle. I see the bag on your wife's bike rack is in that same kind of position, probably without much weight.

My CCM girly bike will flip right over if leaning/turning too much over the angled bit to the sidewalk entrance, or even if I have a loose grip of the front when holding a door open with one hand and leading the bike through with the other. If it leans and the front wheel turns past a small amount and lifts, it can flip the bike over with force, if there is, say, 20 lbs. in the basket. It would be so easy to get smashed or killed.

Never having had a bike basket before I was shocked to see how badly it alters the characteristics once sufficient weight is in the basket. After I got rid of the basket and installed low hanging slightly more forward position homemade panniers, not really a problem. So battery would have to be mounted horizontally and low and as far forward as possible without getting heel strikes.

And I'm still unsure of which I'll do. If the ready built guys offer me an incentive deal today that will be it.

After sorting through all the possiblities, I concluded that one should convert their bike according to the bikes characteristics

I'm a believer. Were wiser words ever spoken on the subject?

 

[stanmiller]

Her Trek bike is very stable and well balanced coming in at 42 lbs. She puts lightweight items in the basket (jacket, small grocery items, etc.).

Even though it's only equipped with a 250w 36v motor, it's a hoot to ride and carries my 200 lbs up to 23mph on flats and, understandably, much slower up mild grades.

I've taken it on 15 mile treks through downtown (Charlotte, NC). And that seems to be the limit of the range. The battery reported 50% on return but was dipping heavy on the last hill climb to our home.

Her conversion came in around $600. Tonight I'll post a build thread with links to all the parts and the shop that built the wheel.

 

[Handlebars]

THANK YOU to everyone who helped. I just ordered a ready-made Sparkbike City because I have too much uncertainty and it would be Christmas before I got past dithering, ordered, received it, etc. and got riding.
Thank you all, EBR friends!

 

[AHicks]

Congrats! Smart move ordering SOMETHING while there's still some season left to ride. LOT's of people get caught up trying to spec out every detail and just get lost as there's so much info, varying opinions, and let's face it, bad information.

 

[Handlebars]

Yes Sir! I like the ebike so much I did 9.7 km in our apt. parking lot last night. Just testing.

 

[AHicks]

I'm curious, now that you've had a chance to try it, what is your opinion on PAS?

 

[Handlebars]

I need to do something about the stiff throttle that needs constant thumb pressure. Cruise control is imperative.
The PAS is also not good, riding is like a city bus because the power turning on gives a surge like a jolt; anything but a smooth transition and turning off isn't a smooth transition either, especially uphill.
Having said that, my guess is that the jolting forward is a function of the motor. I did find that I used PAS much more than throttle because of the stiffness of the throttle spring and it has the same jolting effect anyway.

I'm thinking that maybe a Grin CycleAnalyst3 could modify those things all in one go. However, I hated the boss's public response on how to make the Cycle Analyst detachable for theft /vandalism protection. It was inexcusably bad; that nobody would know what it is anyway, so it's safe, and he hasn't heard of thefts, so nothing...
That is like a politician's response; skirting both the posed problem and discussion of any potential great improvement, using sidetracking and fluffing it off. It seems like it would be simple enough for a genius to work on for a few minutes. So I wouldn't buy from that guy unless I knew exactly all the details of how to go about protecting the CA.
I might write to him and tell him I'm not buying until he answers that serous question reasonably. As if he'd give a hoot.

 

[AHicks]

I predict not many will be interested in that removable display feature. You may be further ahead striking out on your own rather than a looking for a sympathetic display manf. From where I sit, it shouldn't be any more complicated than some Velcro and a multi wire connector.

But before you get too far, you'll need to find out if the CA will work with your controller (not likely), or plan on replacing the controller with one that will accommodate the CA. That may turn out to be an exercise in patience as you (try to) match up all the wire functions. And of course your warranty will be out the window....

 

[Handlebars]

Thank you, AHicks. I put about 20 road miles on the bike today so far, and that altered my perceptions of throttle and PAS. The throttle CAN be smooth start but only with precise knowledge of where it kicks in. I think maybe the cheap attachment that gives palm/wrist control of throttle woud do the trick for both reducing the spring pushback and accurate control. The PAS also improved with experience in using the gears and PAS levels and pedalling combined. I've used 70% of 17Ah already, so this tells me that buying the bigger battery was a necessity, due to the way the city traffic signals and other vehicles demand, if I want to keep up instead of being passed every second. So at this point I'm happier with PAS than I thought. It works better for me when I work the gears using better tactics, and at better speeds and it doesn't jolt on and off too much as as it did last night in testing.

 

[AHicks]

There IS a learning curve associated with proper use of PAS and the gear you're in. I don't think about it much anymore as it's become almost automatic.

When first learning to ride the bike I ended up with, it took some serious figuring out. I didn't really start catching on for quite a few miles.

Your battery milage will likely improve quite a bit as you learn/get used to the bike (PAS and what gear to be using). Don't be in too big a hurry to make improvements in anything but your riding style for a while. At least a month.... You'll likely see PAS 1 and 2 are your friends if battery capacity is of any concern. The increased wind resistance at higher speeds really knocks your mileage down.

Oh, I prefer a thumb throttle over a twist big time. Even though I've ridden motorcycles most of my life, the thumb throttle seems much more intuitive after using both, and easier on my hand on longer rides. That's something you could try right away, to see if you like that any better.

 

[Handlebars]

There IS a learning curve associated with proper use of PAS and the gear you're in. I don't think about it much anymore as it's become almost automatic.

When first learning to ride the bike I ended up with, it took some serious figuring out. I didn't really start catching on for quite a few miles.

Your battery milage will likely improve quite a bit as you learn/get used to the bike (PAS and what gear to be using). Don't be in too big a hurry to make improvements in anything but your riding style for a while. At least a month.... You'll likely see PAS 1 and 2 are your friends if battery capacity is of any concern. The increased wind resistance at higher speeds really knocks your mileage down.

Oh, I prefer a thumb throttle over a twist big time. Even though I've ridden motorcycles most of my life, the thumb throttle seems much more intuitive after using both, and easier on my hand on longer rides. That's something you could try right away, to see if you like that any better.

The throtttle is a thumber. The cheap attachment I was thinking about and you already know, allows your palm to do the pressure. I was thinking I saw it attached to the paddle type of throttle. Maybe it's only for twist grip throttle. As you mention, though, by next month I may have a different appreciation. I think I might do a little surgery on the spring inside the thumb paddle to loosen it up and get more precision. That would be better. Or some kind of keeper to hold it in place on longer trips without many stops.