Help Critique My Stealth e-bike Parts and Sellers Choices

[Handlebars]

Thank you for all the help, Thomas!
I know what you're talking about when you say

Cheap kits have cheap controllers. Untrainable brains. Exactly why I stick to Grin and EM3ev for complete kits.

From an RC toys *buyer* aspect, though, cheap wins. It applies somewhat here, I'm sure.

It depends on what you need. As a seller who wants to stand behind his sale, you want quality, dependability, and parts availability.
As a buyer, I want different. I doubt I'm ever going to ship anything anywhere, so my view point is that it all depends on costs... or more precisely, what I would perceive as the costs, risks and hassle. It's too complex to formulate, because "risks" involve more than mere risk associated with health of bike part. So it gets very generalized and comes down to "Do ya wanna do this or not? And how much are you willing to spend?"


With toys you don't send cheap things back because you either throw them away or get a soldering iron and multimeter and begin to fix them all the time. If you're afraid that your toy will come in the mail smashed up or with missing parts, you open the package on video. Show them and they send a replacement. Hobby shops are too expensive to use for repairs so they don't bother sending you to a shop unless it's an expensive toy. It's better for everyone to just make a reasonable compromise and move forward . Most often they are good if you keep it simple and don't use colloquial sayings that don't translate well. I'd assume that kind of resend isn't happening much with the bike batteries, so it requires a more careful think.

With bike parts you could send them back, but you then have the trouble and expense of using the warranty, even if the things aren't heavy. You might have to communicate back and forth and convince the busy person over there, then do the packing and shipping and maybe pay the cost of that - and the "must buy" insurance, it's better to get on with life.

On the opening point, don't some advanced people investigate the cheapo brain in order to take control of it? With RC they sometimes flash the board to make it perform differently (usually not to increase power, but to allow it to be smoother, thriftier, and do new things), then they make it available to everyone, then manufacturers will take it up as an innovation.

"To me warranty service for kits is paramount."
As long as the major parts have a reasonable lifespan with a good record and replacement parts are available, I don't care for that once a certain price difference is offered. It's too expensive to send stuff back. There ARE exceptions that make you take it to heart ...

"Dear Customer,
In this catalog there are a number of products that carry a lifetime guarantee.

Now, it wouldn't be credible for us to state that a product will last forever, but it's not a stretch for you to see that you'll get full value (one way or another) out of each of the products so described. A lifetime guarantee is one of the ways a manufacturer telegraphs that the product will outlast your expectations of it or you'll get your money back.

(abridged)

One of the challenges we face with offering a broad range of "lifetime" tools is that each time we're successful selling a product, we effectively diminish our own future market.

(abridged)
Don't cut us any slack based on past performance – it's the only way to assure our future performance remains up to snuff!

Cheers,

Robin C. Lee
President"

They just have s higher failure rate. Any warranty replacement is hit or miss and usually a frustratingly long process. Same for Luna. All good until there’s an issue. I hate fighting for good service.

Right. and I forgot to mention "time to wait" until the part gets fixed and returned. Months? Maybe better to buy another and work on the damaged one.

So, I have to ask, why Bafang overMAC?

It costs almost 3 times as much. You get more and better stuff and can have more control, but the project dollar amount just expanded too much.

 

[TimJohn]

OK of all the things you should be fussy over, besides the motor, are the brakes. Your idea of purchasing another bike that already has disc brakes is probably the best thing you can do. You mention going to higher battery voltages which means faster speeds. I have had my Tern Verge Si8 for a couple of months now and it can easily reach 30 - 40 kms/hr (although the motor power cuts out at 28 kms/hr). On a fairly short wheel based vehicle that is scary for me. I know I wanted my e-bike for speeds of 20 kms/hr and you say you want to use the e-bike at 15 kms/hr. But let me say I went much, much faster than this because I wanted to try it. I needed those brakes and the confidence that I had using them at these speeds was reassuring. The disc brakes on this model are fantastic.

Don't lose site of the safety factor. I don't trust rim brakes especially if you have a heavy e-bike you are going need all the stopping power you can get. Since most of the stopping power actually is from the front, ideally that where you really need the disc.

As for the expenses of a conversion, all arguments are valid. The only thing, I was concerned with was my remorse. Did I feel good about the purchase?? I have nothing but good things to say regarding GRIN technologies and their service. When you check their prices, you can point out they are more expensive but I felt really good about dealing with them. I had no experience when I walked through their front door and left with all my questions answered. Good luck I hope you don't get into the loop of over thinking this.

 

[Handlebars]

OK of all the things you should be fussy over, besides the motor, are the brakes. Your idea of purchasing another bike that already has disc brakes is probably the best thing you can do. You mention going to higher battery voltages which means faster speeds. I have had my Tern Verge Si8 for a couple of months now and it can easily reach 30 - 40 kms/hr (although the motor power cuts out at 28 kms/hr). On a fairly short wheel based vehicle that is scary for me. I know I wanted my e-bike for speeds of 20 kms/hr and you say you want to use the e-bike at 15 kms/hr. But let me say I went much, much faster than this because I wanted to try it. I needed those brakes and the confidence that I had using them at these speeds was reassuring. The disc brakes on this model are fantastic.

Don't lose site of the safety factor. I don't trust rim brakes especially if you have a heavy e-bike you are going need all the stopping power you can get. Since most of the stopping power actually is from the front, ideally that where you really need the disc.

As for the expenses of a conversion, all arguments are valid. The only thing, I was concerned with was my remorse. Did I feel good about the purchase?? I have nothing but good things to say regarding GRIN technologies and their service. When you check their prices, you can point out they are more expensive but I felt really good about dealing with them. I had no experience when I walked through their front door and left with all my questions answered. Good luck I hope you don't get into the loop of over thinking this.

Thanks for the input, Timjohn! Your bike is too cool.
Another thing to buy is safety gear - a good helmet, gloves, lights.

And yep, I think I might have to buy a bike, maybe I can catch a good sale; disc brakes, slightly plus-sized tires, long wheelbase, full fenders, Budget: $400 CAD. The roads are in such poor condition around here that getting plus-sized tires will help. I'm on the lookout for the 6" deep potholes. And drivers on the roads around here are a hazard....like yesterday's SUV driver who passed me on my bike and one second later put on the brakes making a right turn into the beauty supplies store parking lot. They're another thing to watch out for.

So there's that.

Adding a new bike into the cost makes it a cinch that I buy the motor kit and battery from China.

 

[TimJohn]

Well good luck with it. I purchased a full face helmet as well but I am surprised I don't see anyone else ever riding with one on the street. Don't give up...it has been very educational and above all fun to assemble your very own e-bike. Keep posting and see if you can get over 1000 views just like my posting. I am glued to this site and throughly enjoy the conversations.

 

[harryS]

Handlebars, I've converted a half dozen bikes,

My biased comments. I don't like your first choice of motors. It's a good kit, but direct drive motors are heavier and have resistance when coasting. For the same weight, a geared motor has more pulling power. As a tradeoff, gears can wear out, and cannot take much abuse, but I'm an adult and this is not a concern. I don't care at all about regeneration. I want to ride the downhills as far as I can. For the light weight bikes I prefer, direct drive motors aren't an option anyway. Something that only weighs under 5 pounds would have no guts w/o gears.

For batteries, I have had good experience with packs that used GA or 30Q high capacity cells. My wife can go over 30 miles on a 36V 10AH pack, and it's only a few times that we actually go that far, and when we do, I'm carrying a spare for her anyway. Buy a quality battery and it will last a long time.

 

[tomjasz]

Thank you for all the help, Thomas!
I know what you're talking about when you say
From an RC toys *buyer* aspect, though, cheap wins. It applies somewhat here, I'm sure.

It depends on what you need. As a seller who wants to stand behind his sale, you want quality, dependability, and parts availability.
As a buyer, I want different. I doubt I'm ever going to ship anything anywhere, so my view point is that it all depends on costs... or more precisely, what I would perceive as the costs, risks and hassle. It's too complex to formulate, because "risks" involve more than mere risk associated with health of bike part. So it gets very generalized and comes down to "Do ya wanna do this or not? And how much are you willing to spend?"


With toys you don't send cheap things back because you either throw them away or get a soldering iron and multimeter and begin to fix them all the time. If you're afraid that your toy will come in the mail smashed up or with missing parts, you open the package on video. Show them and they send a replacement. Hobby shops are too expensive to use for repairs so they don't bother sending you to a shop unless it's an expensive toy. It's better for everyone to just make a reasonable compromise and move forward . Most often they are good if you keep it simple and don't use colloquial sayings that don't translate well. I'd assume that kind of resend isn't happening much with the bike batteries, so it requires a more careful think.

With bike parts you could send them back, but you then have the trouble and expense of using the warranty, even if the things aren't heavy. You might have to communicate back and forth and convince the busy person over there, then do the packing and shipping and maybe pay the cost of that - and the "must buy" insurance, it's better to get on with life.

On the opening point, don't some advanced people investigate the cheapo brain in order to take control of it? With RC they sometimes flash the board to make it perform differently (usually not to increase power, but to allow it to be smoother, thriftier, and do new things), then they make it available to everyone, then manufacturers will take it up as an innovation.

"To me warranty service for kits is paramount."
As long as the major parts have a reasonable lifespan with a good record and replacement parts are available, I don't care for that once a certain price difference is offered. It's too expensive to send stuff back. There ARE exceptions that make you take it to heart ...

"Dear Customer,
In this catalog there are a number of products that carry a lifetime guarantee.

Now, it wouldn't be credible for us to state that a product will last forever, but it's not a stretch for you to see that you'll get full value (one way or another) out of each of the products so described. A lifetime guarantee is one of the ways a manufacturer telegraphs that the product will outlast your expectations of it or you'll get your money back.

(abridged)

One of the challenges we face with offering a broad range of "lifetime" tools is that each time we're successful selling a product, we effectively diminish our own future market.

(abridged)
Don't cut us any slack based on past performance – it's the only way to assure our future performance remains up to snuff!

Cheers,

Robin C. Lee
President"


Right. and I forgot to mention "time to wait" until the part gets fixed and returned. Months? Maybe better to buy another and work on the damaged one.

It costs almost 3 times as much. You get more and better stuff and can have more control, but the project dollar amount just expanded too much.

Thank you for all the help, Thomas!
I know what you're talking about when you say
From an RC toys *buyer* aspect, though, cheap wins. It applies somewhat here, I'm sure.

It depends on what you need. As a seller who wants to stand behind his sale, you want quality, dependability, and parts availability.
As a buyer, I want different. I doubt I'm ever going to ship anything anywhere, so my view point is that it all depends on costs... or more precisely, what I would perceive as the costs, risks and hassle. It's too complex to formulate, because "risks" involve more than mere risk associated with health of bike part. So it gets very generalized and comes down to "Do ya wanna do this or not? And how much are you willing to spend?"


With toys you don't send cheap things back because you either throw them away or get a soldering iron and multimeter and begin to fix them all the time. If you're afraid that your toy will come in the mail smashed up or with missing parts, you open the package on video. Show them and they send a replacement. Hobby shops are too expensive to use for repairs so they don't bother sending you to a shop unless it's an expensive toy. It's better for everyone to just make a reasonable compromise and move forward . Most often they are good if you keep it simple and don't use colloquial sayings that don't translate well. I'd assume that kind of resend isn't happening much with the bike batteries, so it requires a more careful think.

With bike parts you could send them back, but you then have the trouble and expense of using the warranty, even if the things aren't heavy. You might have to communicate back and forth and convince the busy person over there, then do the packing and shipping and maybe pay the cost of that - and the "must buy" insurance, it's better to get on with life.

On the opening point, don't some advanced people investigate the cheapo brain in order to take control of it? With RC they sometimes flash the board to make it perform differently (usually not to increase power, but to allow it to be smoother, thriftier, and do new things), then they make it available to everyone, then manufacturers will take it up as an innovation.

"To me warranty service for kits is paramount."
As long as the major parts have a reasonable lifespan with a good record and replacement parts are available, I don't care for that once a certain price difference is offered. It's too expensive to send stuff back. There ARE exceptions that make you take it to heart ...

"Dear Customer,
In this catalog there are a number of products that carry a lifetime guarantee.

Now, it wouldn't be credible for us to state that a product will last forever, but it's not a stretch for you to see that you'll get full value (one way or another) out of each of the products so described. A lifetime guarantee is one of the ways a manufacturer telegraphs that the product will outlast your expectations of it or you'll get your money back.

(abridged)

One of the challenges we face with offering a broad range of "lifetime" tools is that each time we're successful selling a product, we effectively diminish our own future market.

(abridged)
Don't cut us any slack based on past performance – it's the only way to assure our future performance remains up to snuff!

Cheers,

Robin C. Lee
President"


Right. and I forgot to mention "time to wait" until the part gets fixed and returned. Months? Maybe better to buy another and work on the damaged one.

It costs almost 3 times as much. You get more and better stuff and can have more control, but the project dollar amount just expanded too much.

what happens when the project dollar isn’t recoupable? Seriously. And just to be clear, is Harry correct and your into a direct drive? Prices are hard to compare unless calculated as a package. I suggest my customers slow down and maybe wait a big until they can up the ante to get better gear. I have a no name kit. One Luna sold to screw with ebikekit and lowball sales with the same kit at much lower prices. Now all Luna buyers are stranded. Or they have to pay artificially high parts prices because of the Luna created price war. A $30 Sidon,at is $124 plus shipping. Just because someone had a pushing match. Actually no bearing here except to Lou the out some systems have crap support and stupid prices.

Which brings to mind... what exactly are your goals? Speed? Voltage? mileage? PAS? Torque? Controller variability? Chick magnet? (Kidding) I still contend a new builder can have a nightmare buying from multiple sources and having to match connectors. But if you solder you can blow that sorry off and match it all up yourself.

All quite simple until we screw up....

 

[Handlebars]

what happens when the project dollar isn’t recoupable? Seriously.

The way it works out is that for the motor kit I'd have to be robbed by the first 2 of 3 Chinese sellers to equal the price of a Canadian seller.

And just to be clear, is Harry correct and your into a direct drive?

I think that's a mistake on the advertising, but I'm not sure. I had just grabbed that ad to show whereas I had looked at their amazon ad more https://www.amazon.ca/BAFAGN-Ebike-...a&qid=1563947619&s=gateway&sr=8-25&th=1&psc=1

I'm accustomed to Chinese sellers having wrong info or not knowing anything about their product but still do have the product.

Prices are hard to compare unless calculated as a package.

That's true. In this case it's becoming pretty clear-cut difference between what can be reasonably projected to get me what I want within budget and what just can't ever do it at all even if everything goes perfectly.

.. what exactly are your goals? Speed?

Not speed, just good acceleration up to 18mph, and some city hill climbing. PAS no regen, a little controller ability.

I still contend a new builder can have a nightmare buying from multiple sources and having to match connectors. But if you solder you can blow that sorry off and match it all up yourself.

All quite simple until we screw up....

Yeah, and I'm more likely the one to screw up the order before they do. it's taking me a long time to familiarize myself with the stuff.

 

[Handlebars]

Handlebars, I've converted a half dozen bikes,

My biased comments. I don't like your first choice of motors. It's a good kit, but direct drive motors are heavier and have resistance when coasting. For the same weight, a geared motor has more pulling power. As a tradeoff, gears can wear out, and cannot take much abuse, but I'm an adult and this is not a concern. I don't care at all about regeneration. I want to ride the downhills as far as I can. For the light weight bikes I prefer, direct drive motors aren't an option anyway. Something that only weighs under 5 pounds would have no guts w/o gears.

For batteries, I have had good experience with packs that used GA or 30Q high capacity cells. My wife can go over 30 miles on a 36V 10AH pack, and it's only a few times that we actually go that far, and when we do, I'm carrying a spare for her anyway. Buy a quality battery and it will last a long time.

HI Harry! Thanks for your comments. I intend to get a geared hub motor, and was shopping on Amazon with that seller and just grabbed an ad of theirs from ebay to show. I thought they were mistaken but it's probably me. Their amazon ad didn't say it was regen.

https://www.amazon.ca/BAFAGN-Ebike-...a&qid=1563947619&s=gateway&sr=8-25&th=1&psc=1

and here they call themselves Bafang. They also say Bafagn.

https://www.amazon.ca/Wheel-Ebike-M...563948949&s=merchant-items&sr=1-15&th=1&psc=1

 

[Handlebars]

Now my plan is to buy the parts and try them out on my stealth girly bike. Before I go to the step of buying a new bike with disc brakes, I'll test the stock item brakes in rain and under an additional 30 lb. load on the downhill, and if the brakes still work well I'll be OK with them and concentrate on upgrading the tires and tubes, also switching them out to slightly plus-sized and I'll order some suitable KoolStop brake shoes/pads.
Thomas, do you have a suggestion for picking which KoolStops to get? The stock brakes are promax.

Big thanks to indianajo , rich c , TimJohn , Thomas Jaszewski , harryS

 

[Handlebars]

"

Well good luck with it. I purchased a full face helmet as well but I am surprised I don't see anyone else ever riding with one on the street.

I have been on the lookout for one and even considered a full face motorcycle helmet but to me they are heavy enough to cause their own safety issues . I'd want some air conditioning for hot weather so to go with a full face bicycle helmet I was looking for a maximum airflow helmet design and using evaporative cooling pads and a spray bottle. Spray bottle alone gives about 5 minutes or so of air cooling when traveling. I've never worn a helmet for biking before so I tested that cooling effect out a couple of weeks back.
One trouble is that the helmet designers want to make the mouthguard removable or flip-up style, so that makes them less reliable and or heavier, more bulky, more wearage points, less effective.

 

[tomjasz]

Electric.

 

[Handlebars]

Electric.

Got it! Thanks Thomas!

 

[Handlebars]

Handlebars, I've converted a half dozen bikes,

My biased comments. I don't like your first choice of motors. It's a good kit, but direct drive motors are heavier and have resistance when coasting. For the same weight, a geared motor has more pulling power. As a tradeoff, gears can wear out, and cannot take much abuse, but I'm an adult and this is not a concern. I don't care at all about regeneration. I want to ride the downhills as far as I can. For the light weight bikes I prefer, direct drive motors aren't an option anyway. Something that only weighs under 5 pounds would have no guts w/o gears.

For batteries, I have had good experience with packs that used GA or 30Q high capacity cells. My wife can go over 30 miles on a 36V 10AH pack, and it's only a few times that we actually go that far, and when we do, I'm carrying a spare for her anyway. Buy a quality battery and it will last a long time.

harry,
Thanks for noticing the type of motor linked to, my error.
That seller is "greeneria", not "greenergia" as I thought it was.
Here's the amazon ad for geared rear hub kit by "greenergia" or "bafang" or "bafagn" too, I guess https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07H77QT3J/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=AF0FBM1E362GS&th=1&psc=1
I corrected my first post.

 

[tomjasz]

I know you don’t want to hear that this is a flaky build, but it is. A $10 controller, a cheap wheel build and no model number for the motor. Battery highly questionable, and any change is an add on. Some have had good luck. Maybe it’s just a toy and $400CDN is play money. But seriously. Every step of this process you hav better insights than fellas here with dozens of builds. I’m all for not over spending, but years of customer service set off all kinds of alarms given your choices. Regardless, we’re here to help. But don’t be an askhole. Fellas here are sharing their fails in hopes of guiding you through the pitfalls.

All the best!

Tom

 

[Handlebars]

I know you don’t want to hear...

I don't agree with your mindreading results.

 

[Handlebars]

Most motors can be overvolted. I’m not understanding your being sold on Bafang. MAC motors with a programmable controller can run at a range of power settings.

(...)

So, I have to ask, why Bafang overMAC? Which Bafang motor are your source selling?

Good question. Upon closer inspection of the pics, I see it's called the G020 "500W", but that motor is said to be 250W nominal. Similarly,most other sellers. https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07M9Q2Y2J/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=AF0FBM1E362GS&th=1&psc=1

Sondors used a low end Bafang with a cheap controller and display. While at Luna I sold scores of upgrades. I contend we do better by sorting exact specifications.

Too bad the hub motor offerings aren't as transparent as the mid-drive. Often they list the weight and that can give a clue.

 

[Handlebars]

This one isn't a budget wrecker and the parts are better.


https://www.ebikes.ca/catalog/product/gallery/image/undefined/id/991

 

[TimJohn]

If you go with the GRIN product then one important item you must install...GRIN's torque arm kit. It is especially needed if this is a front hub motor and the forks are aluminum. Rear mount no concerns. I would go with the Cycle Analyst display. LCD is kinda crude but very readable on a sunny day.

The throttle is nice but think about a 24 pole crank pedal assist sensor (PAS). Easy to install and much cheaper than a torque sensor. You have to set up the computer and it's a bit of a challenge if you are shy with technology. Their site is very educational and the videos will help you setting up and with the installation.

 

[Handlebars]

If you go with the GRIN product then one important item you must install...GRIN's torque arm kit. It is especially needed if this is a front hub motor and the forks are aluminum. Rear mount no concerns. I would go with the Cycle Analyst display. LCD is kinda crude but very readable on a sunny day.[/quote i

The throttle is nice but think about a 24 pole crank pedal assist sensor (PAS). Easy to install and much cheaper than a torque sensor. You have to set up the computer and it's a bit of a challenge if you are shy with technology. Their site is very educational and the videos will help you setting up and with the installation.

I can't go with the GMAC, it's too expensive for the whole shebang. However, the rear motor I linked to is quite small and it's the only thing left that I could consider for a stealth build. I wish they had a mid sized motor at a lower price. I would like to go with the cycle analyst, but not as a stand alone item to buy.
I want the 500W Bafang I guess. So easy for a fat bike to get a nice motor, very little luck for stealth bike.

The throttle is nice but think about a 24 pole crank pedal assist sensor

Timjohn, this is where I need some help because I've never ridden any ebikes. I want to pedal from the traffic stops but not in low gear switching up switching up - I want to pedal hard right off in a middle gear to help the motor up to speed and then not pedal much. I don't want the bike to respond to my cadence or torque at all, I just want it to go and I'll help it - not the other way around.

Does that make sense? What is the bare bones on the handlebars that I need, to get that? Do I need anything else but throttle (and battery and controller and motor)? I suppose I need some kind of limiter to keep the speed below 20mph, that's all I need. Thanks!

 

[TimJohn]

Sounds like you just want a throttle then...you can always add the PAS system later (Pedal Assistant Sensor). Thats what I did. The PAS sensor was only a few bucks and quite easy to install. Just need a crank puller. I don't know what other Bafang controllers allow but I do know they allow a throttle and a PAS with my system. After riding my e-bike with both I like the throttle for those moments when I need a burst of speed without pedalling. So the draw back of just having the throttle is you will have to apply it as you ride and it maybe tiresome on your wrist or your thumb.

The PAS is very easy and feels quite natural. My bike also has a POT (potentiometer) adjuster. That allows me to select just like the Bosch system that uses ECO, SPORT, TOUR, and TURBO. The POT doesn't have these distinctive choices. Its a sliding scale and I like it. Turn it up. Get more wattage as you pedal. Turn it down. Get less wattage as you pedal. Easy and nice to have the choice.

After carefully reading your last message, I think you need to get a PAS system. You say, " I don't want the bike to respond to my cadence...just want it to go and I'll help it".

OK I think you need to try a e-bike. One that has a throttle and a PAS (torque or cadence doesn't matter) which actually is not common. The RAD line have both so try to find a dealer and go test one.

I thought I could just live with a throttle but after having control of my speed with cadence I won't do without it. I rarely just use the throttle and am convinced you probably would like it too if you installed both. Good luck with it.