Heavy rider, very steep hills, not too expensive! Help please

Foffer

Foffer

New Member
Region
United Kingdom
I have a Pendleton Somerby (rear wheel 250W Bafang motor) and now realised that I probably have the wrong bike! I am a man of advanced years, 6'3" (190cm) 115Kg and have bad knees so e-biking gives me the freedom to explore the coastline where I live and helps me to get some exercise. The slope down to the seafront is probably about 20% and getting back up on my Pendleton I have to stand up in the lowest gear to get up it so I usually end up walking.

Am I right in thinking that an e-bike with a motor in the crank and gears on the back wheel would be the best choice for steep hills with a heavy rider? I would value advice on a suitable bike. It needs to be UK road legal, range not important, I only go on short, local runs, and not too expensive.
 
Yes you are right :). Hub motors are singlespeed regardless of whther you have a gear cluster/derailleur. This is because they power the bike thru the axle. As a result, the drivetrain (chain/chainring/cogs/cranks) is there purely for your benefit. You can remove the chain and engage the pedal assist just fine by pedaling, assuming there is a cadence sensor in play.

A hub motor's life sucks in hills for the same reason yours does if you try riding up one on a singlespeed bike. You can possibly overcome the problem by throwing higher voltage and amperage at it, but you will not be solving the inherent wrong-tool-for-the-job situation you are in with a hub bike. Especially when faced with a 20% grade.

The solution you are describing is known as a "mid drive" and since it powers the bike thru the drivetrain, it solves this issue completely. A properly set up bike in the right gear can climb a hill like its not there. You will have to do things like shift in advance (or else) but you can overcome the issues with learned behavior. The linked article below will help get you there.

talesontwowheels.com

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.
talesontwowheels.com talesontwowheels.com

I'm sorry but while I have an idea with respect to the motor choice on a conversion, I have no idea with respect to a specific for-sale bike that fits under the UK's rather draconian power/speed laws. But for sure it has to be a mid drive to solve your root problem.
 
Do bike shops in your area have ebikes in stock? Any Trek or Specialized shop ( for example) should be able to offer you a decent upper level middrive bike to test out if they have stock. Sometimes you can rent one for a day and try it where you want to ride.
I am being cautious, because a 20 percent slope is a lot.
Some EU spec 250 watt middrive bikes can do it pretty easily, but not all of them. Some monster hub drives might as well.
Make sure it will work out before you put your money down.
 
@Foffer, @m@robetson is correct. Your current bike could be ideal for someone and you may be able to get almost all of your money out of it. Depending on who you ask, you would require an unlawfully powerful hub-drive in your area to match your needs for a legal mid-drive. And it would require a heavier battery whilst draining power converted into thermal waste energy at a high rate, instead of propelling you. The others have seen this bike, forgive me team, that I suspect you may appreciate. It is light and fast mid-drive with classic lines and has internal Nexus gears. A friend's wife gave it to him at Christmas. There are many possibilities.
 

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OP, good luck! I feel your pain. I have similar limitations, and a Trek Allant for spouse and me is a game changer. There are no doubt cheaper bikes with high torque mid drive motors than our Allants, but note that motor torque, and good gearing are your friends.
 
Foffer said:
I have a Pendleton Somerby (rear wheel 250W Bafang motor) and now realised that I probably have the wrong bike! I am a man of advanced years, 6'3" (190cm) 115Kg and have bad knees so e-biking gives me the freedom to explore the coastline where I live and helps me to get some exercise. The slope down to the seafront is probably about 20% and getting back up on my Pendleton I have to stand up in the lowest gear to get up it so I usually end up walking.

Am I right in thinking that an e-bike with a motor in the crank and gears on the back wheel would be the best choice for steep hills with a heavy rider? I would value advice on a suitable bike. It needs to be UK road legal, range not important, I only go on short, local runs, and not too expensive.
Click to expand...
There are some from the UK on here that ride Chinese made fatbikes on some crazy climbs . Check out @Chargeride. I think since he rambles on public and private trails, it's probably legal somehow.
 
m@Robertson said:
A hub motor's life sucks in hills for the same reason yours does if you try riding up one on a singlespeed bike. You can possibly overcome the problem by throwing higher voltage and amperage at it, but you will not be solving the inherent wrong-tool-for-the-job situation you are in with a hub bike. Especially when faced with a 20% grade.

The solution you are describing is known as a "mid drive" and since it powers the bike thru the drivetrain, it solves this issue completely. A properly set up bike in the right gear can climb a hill like its not there. You will have to do things like shift in advance (or else) but you can overcome the issues with learned behavior. The linked article below will help get you there.
Click to expand...

My geared hub motor climbs 15% grades with gross load 330 lb, no problem. Will start from a dead stop on that grade and that load with no pedaling without difficulty. Where geared hub motors reach their limits are lugging up long grades of an hour duration. They will overheat in the Rockies or Sierra mountains with a heavy rider. There is not one grade in England long enough to overheat a geared hub motor like my Mac12T. Pennines maybe but the grades there are hiking paths and I don't believe powered bikes are allowed on them.
Don't know how efficient UK customs is in keeping out 1000 W geared hub motors. I'm sure you can't buy a bicycle with more than the piddling 250 W useful in downtown London. Nobody in UK lives anywhere else, right? Stupid laws for city dwellers frightened of aggressive pizza deliverymen on sidewalks.
BIg myth about gearing on bikes is that it multiplies torque. That only happens on mountain bikes with rear sprockets the size of dinner plates, 36 or 42 teeth. $$$$ bikes. 99.9% of bikes sold have NO torque multiplication. Only speed multiplication. I can pedal my yubabike with 80 lb groceries up the 15% grade without power, using the 32:32 lowest range. Or even 32:28. Bike was designed for women with 2 children in car seats pedaling around hills of San Francisco without power.
 
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indianajo said:
My geared hub motor climbs 15% grades with gross load 330 lb, no problem. Will start from a dead stop on that grade and that load with no pedaling without difficulty. Where geared hub motors reach their limits are lugging up long grades of an hour duration. They will overheat in the Rockies or Sierra mountains with a heavy rider. There is not one grade in England long enough to overheat a geared hub motor like my Mac12T. Pennines maybe but the grades there are hiking paths and I don't believe powered bikes are allowed on them.
Don't know how efficient UK customs is in keeping out 1000 W geared hub motors. I'm sure you can't buy a bicycle with more than the piddling 250 W useful in downtown London. Nobody in UK lives anywhere else, right? Stupid laws for city dwellers frightened of aggressive pizza deliverymen on sidewalks.
BIg myth about gearing on bikes is that it multiplies torque. That only happens on mountain bikes with rear sprockets the size of dinner plates, 36 or 42 teeth. $$$$ bikes. 99.9% of bikes sold have NO torque multiplication. Only speed multiplication. I can pedal my yubabike with 80 lb groceries up the 15% grade without power, using the 32:32 lowest range. Or even 32:28. Bike was designed for women with 2 children in car seats pedaling around hills of San Francisco without power.
Click to expand...
Big myth my a**. The whole purpose of gearing is to trade off torque for speed. If you have a mid drive, you most certainly do gain torque in lower gears. And it may surprise you that large rear sprockets are not limited to mountain bikes. Have you been shopping recently? I didn't think so, but good information can also be found on the web.

The amount of alternate facts some folks spew out is rather remarkable, isn't it?
 
I will be doing a tune up and popping one of these on a bike. They are about $30. A long cage derailleur is indexed the same and also costs under $30 for a decent one. I would rather replace less expensive parts more regularly. But that is me. The bike is getting this chain. This pictured cassette is 11-42T, which is plenty. The owner's mid-drive has a 50-T chainring. You could have a sedate 42 chainring for those climbs up the cliff from the sea.
 

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retiredNH said:
Big myth my a**. The whole purpose of gearing is to trade off torque for speed. If you have a mid drive, you most certainly do gain torque in lower gears. And it may surprise you that large rear sprockets are not limited to mountain bikes. Have you been shopping recently? I didn't think so, but good information can also be found on the web.

The amount of alternate facts some folks spew out is rather remarkable, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Actually the facts indianajo mentioned are quite accurate for many ebikes.

Yes, you gain torque by shifting to lower gears but "torque multiplication" only happens when your rear sprocket is larger than your front chainring which is exactly what indianajo stated.

If you gear your ebike with gearing suitable for 28mph (typically 42x11 at 90rpm cadence for me) you have to use a 42t rear sprocket or larger to have "torque multiplication"

I have many ebikes (5 total, hub and mid-drives) and all are geared 42x11 except for my strictly offroad eMTB which is 34t chainring and 11-42t rear. I have only encountered torque multiplication once (using 36t rear) and that was on a 30%+ grade offroad. Due to the small front chainring, I cant pedal much above 20mph which is where its speed cuts out anyway.

As to the OP, I agree that for a 20% grade a mid drive is probably the best choice but I could easily go up that on my GMAC 10t as long as the distance isnt too far.

Yes, rear sprockets are quite large these days. I dont really need them this large on my ebikes
 
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Halfords are pretty good for "value for money" bikes, they might not be the latest and greatest in every way but they're normally pretty rock solid, and have a decent warranty should anything go wrong. Plus they have stores all over the country so you maybe able to view before you purchase.

The Raleigh Felix+ comes with the bosch activeline plus motor... and is similar in style to your current bike. £2149

Electric Bikes | E-Bikes | Halfords UK

Shop our Electric Mountain Bikes with interest free finance. We stock an excellent range of e-bikes suitable for all budgets, have it built and delivered.
www.halfords.com www.halfords.com

There's a few others on that link, all mid-drive bikes.
 
linklemming said:
Actually the facts indianajo mentioned are quite accurate for many ebikes.

Yes, you gain torque by shifting to lower gears but "torque multiplication" only happens when your rear sprocket is larger than your front chainring which is exactly what indianajo stated.

If you gear your ebike with gearing suitable for 28mph (typically 42x11 at 90rpm cadence for me) you have to use a 42t rear sprocket or larger to have "torque multiplication"

I have many ebikes (5 total, hub and mid-drives) and all are geared 42x11 except for my strictly offroad eMTB which is 34t chainring and 11-42t rear. I have only encountered torque multiplication once (using 36t rear) and that was on a 30%+ grade offroad. Due to the small front chainring, I cant pedal much above 20mph which is where its speed cuts out anyway.

As to the OP, I agree that for a 20% grade a mid drive is probably the best choice but I could easily go up that on my GMAC 10t as long as the distance isnt too far.

Yes, rear sprockets are quite large these days. I dont really need them this large on my ebikes
Click to expand...
So you define "torque multiplication" only as greater than 1. Interesting. I guess 0.5 time x is not multiplication, to use a simplistic example. New math?
 
retiredNH said:
Big myth my a**. The whole purpose of gearing is to trade off torque for speed. If you have a mid drive, you most certainly do gain torque in lower gears. And it may surprise you that large rear sprockets are not limited to mountain bikes. Have you been shopping recently? I didn't think so, but good information can also be found on the web.

The amount of alternate facts some folks spew out is rather remarkable, isn't it?
Click to expand...
Deleted in the name of peace......
 
PedalUma said:
I will be doing a tune up and popping one of these on a bike. They are about $30. A long cage derailleur is indexed the same and also costs under $30 for a decent one. I would rather replace less expensive parts more regularly. But that is me. The bike is getting this chain. This pictured cassette is 11-42T, which is plenty. The owner's mid-drive has a 50-T chainring. You could have a sedate 42 chainring for those climbs up the cliff from the sea.
Click to expand...
Just re-reading this again but another vote for @PedalUma 's idea to check this first before thinking of buying a new bike..... Maybe a better chainring/cassette for climbing gradients is all you really need, and would save you a fortune. Mid-Drives tend to be a bit more expensive too.
 
MartsEbike said:
Good site thank you...

Yeah your right he'd love a Mid-Drive for the hills.... depends on how much he wants to spend, but there are a couple of options available.
Click to expand...
Other factors are strong enough wheels and height for 6"3". For weight the wheels are the most important factor, frames not so much. Is he mostly legs or mostly torso for height? Something like a Dutch Bikes would be strong and large.
 
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